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more DOR indigo pics (rubidus) from Mexico....

chrish Jan 05, 2005 12:10 AM

Here is a really pretty rubidus we found freshly hit just south of Puerto Vallarta

That snakes was just under 4 feet long and had a lot of red on the sides and edges of the ventral scales the complete length of the body. Certainly worthy of the epithet rubidus!

The next day, near a town called Autlan, we found this huge freshly shed skin in an area of semi-evergreen forest. This would have been a monster snake, but still appeared to retain the red markings on the side. Wish I had been there a few hours earlier .


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Chris Harrison

Replies (16)

steve fuller Jan 05, 2005 06:11 AM

Thanks for sharing. Have you ever seen "speckled" phase of red-tail?

chrish Jan 05, 2005 11:56 AM

>>Thanks for sharing. Have you ever seen "speckled" phase of red-tail?

No, I've only ever come across a couple of rubidus. One live in Mazatlan which was basically a large black indigo with a white throat and this one.

I don't spend much time on the west coast of Mexico.
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Chris Harrison

epidemic Jan 05, 2005 01:58 PM

Great photos Chris, though the subject matter is quite disheartening.
Once again, your photos of recent adventures leave me stewing with envy!

Thank you for sharing,

Jeff

dryguy Jan 05, 2005 04:25 PM

I've had a few rubidus and I've never seen them red like that..I've had the speckeled phase too and it looks nothing like that..I don't know where PV is, but I assume it's south and should be out of the range of errebennus, but that sure looks like a TXN to me..Maybe we don't know the extent of the range of erebennus or there's an area of intergrade of the 2 subs...Anybody else think like me or have I been working too much and awake too long?
I appreciate your sharing and envy your travels!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

dryguy Jan 05, 2005 04:30 PM

is not ventral related. It's because the entire tail/caudal area has a very slight reddish tint when you see it in the sunlight..And you have to have a good imagination to see it then!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

chrish Jan 05, 2005 11:23 PM

I don't know where PV is, but I assume it's south and should be out of the range of errebennus, but that sure looks like a TXN to me..

PV is on the southwest (Pacific) coast of Mexico. It is completely the wrong side of the continent for erebennus, which is restricted to the lowlands of the gulf coast. The closest that erebennus and rubidus would come together would be near the isthmus of Tehuantepec (hundreds of miles to the east), but there you would see more melanurus influence (and that area is actually the proposed range of orizabensis).

This snake may have some melanurus influence as I don't know where the two subspecies intergrade.

Whatever the subspecies, it was the prettiest indigo I have ever found!

-----
Chris Harrison

dryguy Jan 05, 2005 11:42 PM

Dude if that's a rubidus we need a whole new taxa description!!..But I still envy your travels!!!Keep on showing us your experiences and finds..Rock on!!!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

DeanAlessandrini Jan 06, 2005 01:48 PM

The black snakes with the "reddish" color tail (like you said you need an imagaination to see it) seems to be the main morph in the states (although there are very few of any)

but...I have heard lots of stories of rubs with red or bright pink coloration on the dorsal. As a matter of fact, I know of one in captivity that has "lots of pink"...I've been trying to get the guy to send me a pic forever !

epidemic Jan 06, 2005 03:27 PM

Here is a photo of what the "typical" rubidus posterior looks like.
The red is more apparent in person, especially since my abilities as a photographer leave much to be desired..

Best regards,

Jeff

tvandeventer Jan 06, 2005 06:44 PM

I thought it meant "red" or "ruddy." I may be mistaken. However, I can tell you from personal experience, back when lots of reptiles used to come in from Mexico and collecting was legal, all of the rubidus looked like that. They were very black with pinkish-red bars coming up the sides. The bellies were orangish as were the cheeks. There were numerous white and reddish speckling over the dorsum but it was obscure and mostly on the skin between the scales. They were marketed as "red-tailed indigos" but never really had red tails. They were very distinctive in coloration.

In recent years I've seen the basically black ones in U.S. collections. Not to start anything, but they look nothing like what I knew as rubidus, and I've wondered if that's what they really are. Just a thought. Like I've always said, if you don't have actual collection data, a subspecific designation can be pretty iffy.

Cheers, Terry Vandevenbter

tvandeventer Jan 06, 2005 06:47 PM

Cheers, Terry Vandeventer

oldherper Jan 06, 2005 07:39 PM

>>I thought it meant "red" or "ruddy." I may be mistaken. However, I can tell you from personal experience, back when lots of reptiles used to come in from Mexico and collecting was legal, all of the rubidus looked like that. They were very black with pinkish-red bars coming up the sides. The bellies were orangish as were the cheeks. There were numerous white and reddish speckling over the dorsum but it was obscure and mostly on the skin between the scales. They were marketed as "red-tailed indigos" but never really had red tails. They were very distinctive in coloration.
>>
>>In recent years I've seen the basically black ones in U.S. collections. Not to start anything, but they look nothing like what I knew as rubidus, and I've wondered if that's what they really are. Just a thought. Like I've always said, if you don't have actual collection data, a subspecific designation can be pretty iffy.
>>
>>Cheers, Terry Vandevenbter

Hi Terry! Y/T's are doing great...I'll keep you posted.

Actually ruber means "red" or "ruddy". Rubidus is a rarely used latin word that literally means "dark red" or "reddish".
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

epidemic Jan 07, 2005 04:52 PM

OH has already addressed the meaning of rubidus..
As far as the physical traits of rubidus go, the white anterior ventral coloration is a dead give away.
The species it highly variable within its natural range, and I wouldn't be surprised if your source for rubidus, back in the day, collected from a specific locality.
Unfortunately, there is very little locality data available on any of the Drymarchon spp. currently in captivity, if any at all.
The primary indicating factors for identifying rubidus are scale counts and coloration.
The specimen I have posted is a descendent of wild caught stock produced by David Neske.

Regards,

Jeff

chrish Jan 06, 2005 10:23 PM

Here is a ventral shot and another more realistic anterior shot showing the color better -


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Chris Harrison

dryguy Jan 07, 2005 01:07 AM

original statement...The speckled phase I have had still had a white throat...Man these guys are getting more and more confusing and complicated!!!
Chris, give us some more details about your trips please!!!!!What else did you see,any trouble with the "local police", etc..It must feel like I did in the late 60's going to FL and the South...Seeing and catching snakes I had only dreamed about!!..
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

chrish Jan 07, 2005 11:25 AM

Chris, give us some more details about your trips please!!!!!What else did you see,any trouble with the "local police", etc..It must feel like I did in the late 60's going to FL and the South...Seeing and catching snakes I had only dreamed about!!..

I posted a more complete trip report on another website that I can't mention here. I will eventually get these last 3 trips onto our travel website (www.intrepidtraveler.net).

Actually we didn't see very much at all as it was cold and we didn't get much herping done. The cribo was probably the best snake of the trip, although any boa constrictor, dead or alive, is pretty cool.

The rest of this rant wasn't what you were asking, but, I feel like getting on this soapbox....

As for the trip and travelling, I have been going down to Mexico for 20 years now. I try to go at least once per year and try to visit new areas as often as possible. Generally we are birding, sometimes doing the tourist thing, but herping is never far from my thoughts.

In general, in the tropical types of habitat we all see in our dreams, finding snakes is tough. If you see a snake per day, you feel a sense of accomplishment. Yes, there are some habitats and species that are predictable, but generally the lack of snakes is frustrating. Actually, DOR cribos are a pretty common find (as are DOR boa constrictors). Desert and coastal areas area easier (you can roadhunt at least).

In general, we just pick a target area to go to, get in the car and drive. We know how to get across the border now (getting vehicle permits is a little confusing but not that hard - particularly now that you can register online), so we head down with impunity whenever we have a chance.

Most of Mexico is safe, there has been a huge crackdown on bribery within all government agencies and police and so this isn't a problem anymore (actually, it wasn't a problem before, you just had to understand the system and leave any cynical preconceptions at home!). The only times I have ever been "hassled" by police, I was doing something wrong (speeding, running a light, etc)!

The only areas of Mexico that are considered a little dangerous are areas where there is civil unrest due to oppression of indigenous peoples (highlands and rainforest areas of Chiapas) or montane areas where they grow marijuana to sell here to idiot Americans (Sierra Madre in certain areas of the West Coast).

Just for reference, I speak almost NO spanish. The people are patient and accepting of travellers, as long as you don't bring gringo misconceptions with you. (I hate to hear ignorant Americans complaining about the "corruption" or other myths about Mexico. Go with your eyes and ears open, appreciate the differences, and you will enjoy yourself.)

Mexico is easy to travel in (the new toll roads are amazing - as good as the US interstates most of the time). Gas is a little high (about $2.17 a gallon right now) and food and lodging has increased in price significantly over the last 20 years (it is now almost the same as travelling in the US). Hotels that I used to be able to stay in for $5-10 a night are now $30 a night. Fortunately, there are more hotels available now. Some of the new "Auto-hotels" which rent rooms by the hour (wink, wink) or for the whole night are actually quite nice and unlike many other hotels, have hot water!

It used to be that no land was fenced and noone cared if you pulled off the road and herped in a suitable patch. There are more fences now, but you can still go over them and herp in most areas without being bothered (notice - I said herp, as in look, admire, photograph, NOT collect!).

Last tip. If you are one of those people who can't sleep at night unless they have your trusty 9mm under your pillow, don't go to Mexico. The penalties for being in possession of a firearm are extremely serious and your US passport and all the bribe money Bill Gates could round up won't keep you out of a lengthy jail sentence in a rather unpleasant Mexican prison!

Anyway, off my soapbox now. My advice to anyone wanting to explore Mexico is go, go, go!

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Chris Harrison

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