Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Folks, as I was taking in my new charges (2 albino burms dumped on my porch in 50 degree weather) I was just wondering: How many breeders/sellers of Burmese pythons will actually turn down a sale?
I have been to countless shows and have witnessed many times when breeders/sellers of burmese pythons (and other giant snakes) take no more time with the customers than the time it takes to take the dough and package the snake, end of deal. I see that shows get crazy. I appreciate that you can’t always see who will or won’t be responsible. Yes, I get that they could just go to another table. At some point each breeder here will have a screwhead in front of them with fist full money and a smile. Do you take the money?
No flames are necessary, as I haven’t attacked anyone. I would just like those of you who will bee watching anxiously over eggs to ask yourselves if you are doing all you could to make sure your little giants will be going to the best homes you can find, or will they wind up on someone’s porch, emaciated and half dead or worse? To those of you who think it is not your responsibility to ask your customers some questions, please do the reptile community a favor and sell your breeding stock , as we do not need you. I am really not interested in reading replies, I just wanted to speak for two snakes left in a box since they can’t do it themselves

I personally don't think burms should be sold at shows/expos/reptile swaps; too much of a chance for an impulse buy. The hard questions and screening are good but in the end, a small, and I mean small percentage, of people wishing to own a burm are really qualified to do so. Based on the 50 or so abandoned burms we take in each year not to mention the 100's or 1000's that are abandoned nationwide each year, it is seemingly obvious that these are just not good pets UNLESS you have the qualities and physical abilities to own one. Breeders breed to make money (and hopefully enjoy the animals too)....taht's the sad reality and every time a new brood of eggs are hatched, and pictures posted on forums like this, it only perpetuates the problem. Sooner or later, MOST of these baby burms will become unwanted pets. If anyone rips on your post, they are just fooling themselves.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

Couldn't agree more--I work at a local animal shelter and the two reptiles we get in most often are (surprise!) iguanas and burmese pythons...Which brings me to a question for the forum...our latest surrender was turned in as an African Rock Python, but the baby snake (about 3' long) doesn't look like anything I recognize...its head is marked like a burmese, but its body is not, plus the sides are completely clear and unmarked...the mid body markings look a lot like a labyrinth burmese morph...I'm sorry I don't have access to a camera so can't post a photo...but does this description sound familiar to anyone? Thanks for any help...

SR

That descriprion sounds crazy and i wish you had a camera. Only thing that would have unmarked sides would also have unmarket body...unless you are possibly talking about a tiger retic which i doubt. I rescued a 7 ft tiger retic that was very underfed so i do believe these somewhat more expensive morphs are also suffering. I guess with New IL laws things may change and vendors may be able to be tracked when they sell to a person who is obviously not prepared to deal with these animals. It is a share it should go to that and simple human ethics cannot run this world. I currently have a young african rock I accepted that I cannot morally get rid of since I do not trust that the market will make sure he goes to a good home. So I am slowly falling in love with the gentle little guy and am going to be having a lot of fun with another giant. Luckily I found a person who was very excited to take the tiger retic because at the time i did not have space for her. She was amazing and it was nice to see someone so excited to take her. He explained to me the enclosure he already had setup and gave me his email if i wanted pictures. imo this is what EVERY person selling a large snake or venomous should do. Screening the customer (and vendor) is so important.

Could it be a green patternless?
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1.1.?? albino burms (male also labyrith)
1.1 normal burms
1.2 ball pythons
1.1 spotted pythons
1.2 albino corn snakes (1 female snow)
0.1 house snake
1.2 kenyen sand boas
1.0 guyana red tail boa
1.0 amazon tree boa
1.1 everglades rat snakes
1.2 iguanas
1.1 leopard geckos
1.3 bearded dragons
0.0.1 ornate box turtle
1.2 dogs
0.1 children
0.1 wife

I am facing that delima now. I've got eggs due to hatch in the next week or so. A few years ago, I was given a bunch of baby iguanas, 40 or so, from a reptlie store that was closing. My wife and I refused to sell them to anyone who wouldn't get the right lights, etc. Everyone was given care sheets and lectured on responsible care. Now, I must hold out and keep the babies until I find the right people to sell them to, or sell them to wholesellers or pet stores and let them take responsibilty for who they sell to. Since they are albino het for labyrith, I can keep the price high enough to discourge many impulse buyers. BTW-All three of my iguanas, three of my four burms, a bearded dragon, a water dragon, and my boa constrictor are rescues.
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1.1.?? albino burms (male also labyrith)
1.1 normal burms
1.2 ball pythons
1.1 spotted pythons
1.2 albino corn snakes (1 female snow)
0.1 house snake
1.2 kenyen sand boas
1.0 guyana red tail boa
1.0 amazon tree boa
1.1 everglades rat snakes
1.2 iguanas
1.1 leopard geckos
1.3 bearded dragons
0.0.1 ornate box turtle
1.2 dogs
0.1 children
0.1 wife

I have always thought the same thing myslef. People see these cute little pythons in the store and no one bothers to tell them how big the snake is going to get. I work at CMU for herpetologist Jim Gillingham and we take in animals all the time. Last year we picked up an albino burmese and just the other day I took in an 8 footer from some kid. Personally I don't think anyone has any business owning snakes that get that big. Snakes aren't the only problem. Just this fall I was chasing a pair of young alligators that some genius decided to let go in a pond in michigan. It's all about education and it has to come from the seller. Most people don't do their research about these animals and think they'll look cool. As someone who is running out of room to house unwanted herps I wholeheartedly agree.

I as a buyer would have to agree. Burms should not be sold to just anyone. I personally think they are one of the most beautiful snakes around and the price is usually cheap. I currently own a BRB, and an Albino Boa. I wanted to add to my collection so I ordered 2 Columbian Boas just yetserday. One thing that attracts buyers is the price. A nice Albino Burmese you can get for $300 when to get a nice Albino Boa you have to spend $1000.

So I think the looks and the price drives people without knowledge to buy burms and as we all know in one year they will be 12' long and for me I could not take care of a snake that large.

The large snakes are banned in my area you cant sell them nor own them. So this type of abuse has stopped . First they stopped selling them to anyone under 21 but sadly that didnt help at all.
So they banned them period and for the sake of these snakes I for one am glad. For every one that lived a good life I wonder how many lived miserable lives in cramped cages or released or just killed at a certain size.
Ritas

It doesn't help when dealers/breeders are out just to make a sale. When I was 14 I was finally able to get my first snake and the petstore owner was trying to convince me a burm would be a better idea than a ball python. "10 feet max and great feeders." What he didn't know however that I had been reading/researching herps for years. Practically since I started reading. Needless to say I left that store empty handed but it makes me wonder how many other parents and their children left that store with a new "little" friend.

Charlene
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0.0.1 Green Water Dragon
1.0.0 Tokay Gecko
1.1.1 Bearded Dragons
0.1.0 Columbian Red-tailed Boa
1.0.0 Yellow Ratsnake
0.0.1 California Kingsnake
0.0.1 Black and White Tegu
0.0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula
1.0.0 Evil Budgie

I have a story that is in the same lines as this thread. I have a friend who was given a rock python in a trade, he had no idea how big this snake was going to get! The person he got it from never felt the need to forewarn him. Luckily in this case, the friend is an experienced herp keeper and is able to provide for the needs of this snake, but if it hadn't been him, it would have been someone else who wouldn't have been able. I agree completely!!!

Absolutely on target. Any time money changes hands for animals peoples ethics are tested...not all of them pass.

I totally agree with you, and the person who said something about the $1000 albino boa, what about albino ball pythons? I think that vendors who sell baby igs and burms should have a 5 ft male iguana or a 12 ft burm right beside the babies, that wouldn't have to be for sale, but to discourage impulse buying. I work at a pet store and although we don't sell burms, we sure as heck go through a few iguanas! Some people are so keen on buying them because they are "kool" that they don't even listen to what you tell them about lighting food, etc. One time a lady came in and was talking about having had her ig for quite some years, then she told me it was 2 ft. that wasn't registering in my head, so I asked her why it wasn't very long and she said that they break off its tail every so often so it doesn't get any bigger! I was astonished and left her to be handled by another employee. So yea I agree with you.

A.J.

I realize it's harder in a pet store, but here at the vet clinic we already have their information. Bi-law is really good, and for emerg. cases they'll drop by the owner's place for a visit, even on the weekend!
I wonder how you could get the info. from the owner in a pet store? Even a name and phone number would allow you to look up the address in most cases.

I am reading this post, and thinking to myself...
If we were to take a look at our local animal shelters, then we'd realize, this thinking...this matter of ethics...does'nt pertain to only Burms.
How many cats, dogs, etc, are discarded every day?
There is a pet shop here that I go to occasionally just to bust their ba...umm chops.
They sell puppies. And have these odd letters in front of the breed name... ADC,FDB... ( American Dog Club, Federation of Dog Breeders I was told)
And I laugh because they use these letter because the puppy mills they buy from cant get AKC registrations. And they unload a puppy,a poorly bred one at a premium price.
Where do these dogs end up? Where do the kittens they sell end up?
We need to realize, as a business, these people have to move stock to survive. Stock being...animals. Be it snakes or otherwise.
Once a price is put on that animal, once money changes hands from wholesaler to pet shop, it has to be sold.
I am not condoning this practice, just aware that this is how the economy works.
I breed dogs. I have multiple generations of Dual Champions in my breedings. I dont breed herps.
I only sell puppies to someone that has met my standards, and I still give them the option to return the pup to me.
How many people can do this when there are multiple clutches of eggs? Multiple babies, all needing mice, crickets, etc?
It is not a matter of the ethics of selling them...We should not be BREEDING them if we cant get rid of them.Once they develop appetites, then it becomes apparent we need to sell them ASAP.
The problem starts with the breeding. And it continues down the line.Ca a pet shop keep multiple burms in stock, and continue to feed them? No..they have burms...Customer wants burms.
They sell.Maybe it's not really ethics, it's also ignorance.
They plain dont know much about a particular animal.
They do know they have a bottom line. They have a choice...feed the snakes, or feed their family?
Again, I am not condoning the selling of the animals to just anyone,or even defending the practice of trying to unload the animal at any cost.
But as with dogs, and cats...there are just too too many.
If there is a fast buck to be made...someone will breed their animals...and the problem continues to grow.
Wanna breed? There should be a registry...licensing...etc.
Make it so it's not worth their while to breed.
Prices will go up due to diminishing numbers of animals so that supply cant meet demand.( albino boa vs. albino burm...its numbers that drive the price)
And the problems begin to correct themselves.But only begin, because as long as money drives this market...greed will always play a factor.
I apologize for rambling.
Bob

Thanx Burmboy, you helped me put it all together! Unwanted Burms due to lack of space and feeding issues plus all those unwanted dogs and cats... it's so simple. All unwanted fuzzy-type pets get 3 days in the shelter, after that they get turned over to Burm owners who are government subsidized to maintain proper care for their snakes. Make this a well known program to the general public,"if you don't take good care of fluffy he'll go to the Python People to be eaten!!!". Fat'n happy snakes,easy acess to food, no waste of life, less strain on the shelters and I bet owner turn-over would drop like a rock from the cute-n-fuzzy set. Win-win situation!!! O.k,I'm sorry, I know... bad girl, BAD! I am a bit sleep depraved right now... I'll stop...

Actually I like your idea...lol
Do not...I repeat...do not suggest this idea to the US Govt.
They just might go for it!But it will take 6 layers of management to implement this new program!

I choose not to breed them, or other giant species, for the very reasons that are being disussed in this thread.
I really do think they're awesome, just not for most people.
I'll let the breeders who are producing them do their thing,and stick to Boa constrictor, or smaller...
Great thread everybody.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!