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I ran into this thread and it burned me up. This is why I feel hybrids and unnatural crosses are bad news. I dont care how careful records you keep or how responsible you are this is bound to happen. Thats why I feel that we should not hybridize or create unnatural crosses. Some just feel its their right to do so regardless how it affects others down the road and that I think that is selfish.
Link to snake id discussion

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Keith,

What about breeding a north florida eastern king to a goini kingsnake? That is a natural intergrade that happens in the wild, surely on the fringes of various population ranges. Also, they probably meet up as a result of being washed down river and into other ranges, etc. I read that somewhere and it makes sense.

- Peter

Thats a natural intergrade technically and I guess it wouldnt bother me as much as say a Eastern bred to a Mexican Black King. The point of this post is that the guy thought he had Pueblans instead he has a mystery. Its like buying a Trans Am and then popping the hood and finding a Geo Metro engine in there. You plunk down your hard earnmed cash and you should get exactly what you want and at the very least it should be untainted.

Keith
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Keith
You are going to find unscruplous Pet Shops and breeders everywhere. Just like you would with anything in life. I would prefer to call all crosses and hybrids as what they are are not assign names like "jungle" or "Imperial" ect. But to dismiss hybrids altogether because of people who are deceiving is not the cure. Much like the democratic veiw of taking the guns away from people is going to solve crime. Criminals will get their guns (or other weapons) and the innocent law abiding citizen will be unable to protect themselves as stated in our Constition. To me saying hybrids is wrong ..well.. IS JUST UNAMERICAN!

I frustratingly have to agree.
Some people talk about education as being key to conservation, but even affluent people (americans) that have access to education and literature (and anyone reading this forum has access to the internet and therefore the potential to learn more) appear to choose to be ignorant or to simply ignore conservation issues.
Husbandry techniques are the only beneficial thing to have come out of reptile hobbyists as a whole. It is a shame that there isn't more responsible record keeping, for once animals are brought into the pet market they are essentially worthless as conservation tools. None of these animals can be returned to the wild due to lack of locality information plus other issues that arise with irresponsible keeping.
But HYBRIDS! They are completely worthless in my opinion. What I find irresponsible about them is that they could potentially get into the wild populations and dilute genes. The whole hobby is a mess if I think too much about it.
So yes, I agree entropy rules.

I can understand that Keith. However I would reply by saying most Hybrid fans are working with F2s and F3s now and the offspring from them has Hybrid written all over them in many cases. It also seems many prefer Albinos and those are even easier to spot. I have to look at this in comparison to locale...meaning when a locale specific snake is turned into the hands of the hobbiests it can also become a mystery snake. Playing can you guess this locale[from a pic ] is not the easiest game. I have seen people try and take advantage of what's in demand or popular by breeding 2 different locales to make a snake that looks similar to what's popular, especially this year in Pituophis. I have recently changed my view on inbreeding....many readers of a few of these forums fear breeding siblings over and over and that is very debateable. BUT, I have to wonder if that means people are also ruining pure locales because they're afraid of breeding sibs. Therefore many may be intentionally using different locales in breeding pairs. I came close to buying OBKs or Blue Eyed Blonde Cal Kings last year. After knowing the history of the breeding stock I got cold feet because I was already starting with snakes inbred several generations. That meant by the time my customers got babies from their snakes and sold those offspring they'd be offering snakes which are even moreso inbred. I honeslty don't worry as much about that after learning a little about how certain morphs came to be, but I do agree misrepresentation sucks. The pet shop scene is probably the worst as they will tell anyone what they want to hear as long as a snake is sold. I know this won't make you feel any better but as more people work with Hybrids....some are so used to seeing them they can look at any given snake and have a very good idea of what the snake is a combination of. I think Hybrids can be good projects, but when people breed 2 snakes together randomly because they don't have mates for 2 single snakes...I will frown on that. There's a lot of nice looking animals that have been created over the past few years and people into those Hybrids know what combos look great and what is a waste of time. I will give a thumbs up to any serious locale breeder who will refuse a sale to someone who is going to hybridise a snake that should moreso be preserved in it's natural pure form though, this subject is difficult for me not to contradict myself....but I try to see things from both sides. Tom Stevens

well keith i beleive that to be more of an intergrade NOT hybrid and does it occur in the wild ,maybe, nobody knows for sure,howsa bout the albino easterns? do you really beleive they are from the lone 1 male supposedly found in tennesee(which btw easterns dont range into)? or was that amel gene introduced via another ssp.? i beleive the answer to be obvious,,,,
thomas
p.s.if a captive breeder has a snake where he/she thinks maybe it might not be true ,,,,, its simple dont breed it! your transam comparison IMHO just doesnt fit in this instance

A year or two ago there was a post on the Pit forum. What I got from it was someone was saying why don't a bunch of Pit people start a group of sorts, which the members all took on a locale specific project. Seeing in some locales there may yet be hope of preserving as pure a snake as we can get by starting with stock from the breeders who are looked at as purists. I thought it was a great idea....and volunteered immediately. For some reason it seemed I had missed the point and was not entirely on track but regardless.....none of these fanatics followed up on it, so neither did I. Pits are much larger than Kings...so it was a greater commitment in my opinion. If some of the purists are striving too keep a trace of these locales going why isn't a network of people doing more than expecting it all to happen through cliques and word of mouth? I am guessing Keith is working on this through his site....but maybe some of the other people....both new and old can get involved? I am not big on locales....and did not have the room for the Pit project[I like large cages] and I was ready to do it. I would consider it with any given snake if it was to be taken on a very serious level. The only drawback is, if people are going to bash Hybrid breeders in general, then they may automatically be black listed even though they would love to participate. If you have anything like this going on within your resource site Keith please let us know. I think there's a fine line between those who claim to be serious herpers...and those who truly are. Especially when locale is an issue. I am a morph fanatic, but moreso I am a snake fanatic. One point I would like to mention is there are several symposium type things which happen a few times a year. I never go to any, and really wonder how many of us do? I mean if this idea that I stole from that old thread on the Pit forum would fall into place the people involved could all trade offspring for years to come afterwords, and sell to the public of course but the point being keeping some specifics...specific.There could be an attempt for the people involved to meet at some of larger expos and things like that. This year was my first Daytona trip, and I had a blast. I know I would like to try and make it to more shows like that one. I am sure I could find an hour or two to go meet with people on a project like this to really make an impact on the future of snakes. So, is there anything like this already going on, or is it time to start getting somehting together Tom Stevens

Awhile back Tony D. mentioned something that I thought made tons of sense. He said and Im paraphrasing so forgive me Tony that we rely on political borders as locality when thats kinda silly. Its not like a Echols Co., locale or hatched animal doesnt ever not cross into say Clinch Co. or even one of the N Florida counties because there is a imaginary line there lol. He says it would be better to look at locales by geography and natural barriers. I thought this made great sense except maybe in some cases where there very large tracts of land with no cut offs of any kind but maybe Im wrong on that. Anyway I thought it would be cool to do is basically break locales down by regions. You can still use your county info as a further indicator but say like my Burlington and Monmouth co. Easterns those counties border so some may say when I breed the together they arent locale animals anymore. The thing is those counties border so where do we draw the line. Anyway food for thought. Im hoping Tony has thought this thru further and could eloborate for us . Im not some hardore locale guy like some of the Grayband guys so Im always open to new ideas etc...
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"Burlington and Monmouth co. Easterns those counties border so some may say when I breed the together they arent locale animals anymore. ",,,,,,,i would have to say anyone who said they arent locale specific animals because of different adjoining counties is just way dumb!! and dont deserve an oppurtunity to purchase such an animal, heck nj is such a small state i dont see that there would be any differance within any of the counties easterns!,IMHO ,,,,,,,,thomas

I agree TD but more than one person has said that to me and I just shook my head and thought whatever. Life is too short to pass up one what may be a spectacular animal because its not from the same street corner lol.

Keith
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Thats the question isnt it Thomas what is it ? I never said it was a Hybrid or a unnatural cross just that the guy who owns has no idea what it is. Even the guys in the know atent sure. Gotta also believe for every guy who asks others whats this there are as many people who dont ask and just breed it to whatver in this case it would have been a Pueblan Milk. I sorta confused on how you came to the conclusion thats a intergrade ? Nobody could ever EVER know unless the original breeder pops up and says oh sorry its this. My analogy works fine in that you think you are getting one thing but in essence what you got was something else. I dont know how that could be taken any other way.

I cant answer your Albino Eastern question nobody can except Kevin McCurly of NERD and he has next to zero info. Not to mention I dont really care about nor do I care for the Albino Eastern King. You make the mention of it like its my morph and I have never even owned one. Is it an Albino Eastern ??? I dont know but they do look the part. As far as your comment about not breeding something because it look odd that may be what you live by but I assure you there are others who live by different motto's.

Keith

>>well keith i beleive that to be more of an intergrade NOT hybrid and does it occur in the wild ,maybe, nobody knows for sure,howsa bout the albino easterns? do you really beleive they are from the lone 1 male supposedly found in tennesee(which btw easterns dont range into)? or was that amel gene introduced via another ssp.? i beleive the answer to be obvious,,,,
>>thomas
>>p.s.if a captive breeder has a snake where he/she thinks maybe it might not be true ,,,,, its simple dont breed it! your transam comparison IMHO just doesnt fit in this instance
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Not to mention I dont really care about nor do I care for the Albino Eastern King. You make the mention of it like its my morph and I have never even owned one. Is it an Albino Eastern ??? I dont know but they do look the part. ,, sorry keith i did not mean to imply in any way it was your morph, i simply brought it up cuz you are "the eastern guy", as far as lookin the part?whats up w/your rants about "purity" i understand you cant tell purity from a f1, but can we tell purity from ANY animal by looks alone?, its just very obvious in my opinion that the amel gene was introduced to easterns via another ssp., we have talked about this before its my opinion you can do that and breed back to one ssp. or the other and, breed them true again,,hypothetically an albino banded caliking to an eastern, then breeding the amel gene true then going w/easterns after say probably 4or5 generations i beleive it will be a true or pure eastern again only now w/the amel gene, if i remember right you dont agree w/that,& there it lies.
now w/hybrid unnatural cross debate in the title thats how i figured you assumed it (tricolor) was a hybrid.
to me you cant hybridize within a complex like within getula or within triangulum its when you cross complex's like getula to triangulum or elaphe,pituophis,etc,etc, and thats how i come to the conclusion that that snake is an intergrade and not hybrid, maybee im wrong wouldnt be the first time or last anyway hopes that all made sense ,,,,,,,thomas

>>hypothetically an albino banded caliking to an eastern, then breeding the amel gene true then going w/easterns after say probably 4or5 generations i beleive it will be a true or pure eastern again only now w/the amel gene

Q: What's the basis for believing that if the two parents have what, hypothetically, 10,000 genes, and you cross them, that 4-5 years later the single amel gene can be retained but all of the other (hypothetically) 9,999 genes from the cal king will have been "bred out", leaving a "pure" eastern? I can't figure out a way to believe that would/could happen.

>>to me you cant hybridize within a complex like within getula or within triangulum its when you cross complex's like getula to triangulum or elaphe,pituophis,etc,etc,

Thomas, or someone, help me with definitions, i thought:
intergrade: a cross that occurs in nature
hybrid: a cross that does not occur in nature
I know that seems exceedingly simple, but is it wrong in any way? If so, what ARE the right definitions?

peace
terry

>>Q: What's the basis for believing that if the two parents have what, hypothetically, 10,000 genes, and you cross them, that 4-5 years later the single amel gene can be retained but all of the other (hypothetically) 9,999 genes from the cal king will have been "bred out", leaving a "pure" eastern? I can't figure out a way to believe that would/could happen.
>>A:well hypothetically the 10,000 genes of the eastern and the 10,000genes of the caliking imho are probably 99% the same as they are both getula that are just seperated by range again i feel you cant HYBRIDIZE within a complex its only hybridizing when you cross the complex's & thats just my opinion.
also it wouldnt be 4-5 years more like10-15yrs through many generations of line breeding.
also your definitions are correct cept ya forgot one: the unnatural intergrade, which technically i suppose some feel is a hybrid & i suppose im alone in that thinking its not but thats cool(we all know what opinions are like )
peace
thomas

This is a pic of a natural intergrade. It was found in N. Calif on a large parcel of private property.

Gopher X King

So is this snake worthless and should be destroyed becuase of a sexually addicted kingsnake

...once you breed two separate species/subspecies together, their offspring and their offspring's descendants are never pure. It's only a matter of 50% "pure", 75% "pure", 87.5% "pure", 93.75% pure, 96.875% "pure", etc... Mathematically it's impossible to ever reach 100% again.

As far as intergrades go, I think the term is most appropriately used for wild animals that are intermediate forms, or their captive offspring. Suwanee kings are Eastern/Florida intergrades, Pinellas kings are Eastern/Florida intergrades... both have evolved different looks, yet both are intermediate forms between those subspecies. Rainer's EasternXHypo Brooksi is a captive produced Eastern/Florida cross, and not representative of a naturally existing intermediate form.

The word "hybrid" extends beyond the species level. Most definitions I have found do not restrict it to interspecies crosses... Microsft Encarta defines it as:

2. zoology animal resulting from cross-species mating: an animal that results from the mating of parents from two distinct species or subspecies

So really, the nitpicking as to whether something is a hybrid or an intergrade is pointless, they are all hybrids.

What this has to do with anything... I don't know. I just woke up.

I appreciate Keith bringing this topic up for discussion. I am a biologist who also happens to have a keen interest in mexicana-complex kingsnakes. The lack of ready (= legal) access to known-locality animals from Mexico has been a big problem for U.S. breeders. The strong inter-fertility of these snakes has made it tempting to mix members of the group (alterna, thayeri, ruthveni, greeri, mexicana) in various combinations, the products of which might not be visually obvious--especially if a hybrid is bred back to one of the parent species. I suspect that a number of these unnatural products have been incorporated into breeding lines over the last 20 or so years without the knowledge of the breeders involved. This certainly poses a problem for those of us interested in acquiring the “real deal.” Thus, although I appreciate the sentiment that all of this ought to be a matter of personal choice on the part of individual breeders, we all bear some responsibility to ensure that the animals we enjoy will continue to be available in a genetically uncontaminated form.

Cheers,

Bob Hansen
rwh13@csufresno.edu

Thanks for your comments Bob. You wouldn't by any chance know of any biologists who researched the Floridana/Brooksi/ Goini we often discuss here on the forum? I am a Mexicana fan too. Do you think the brilliant line bred specimens of Thayeri and Mt Kings are a poor representation of what pure wild types should be? Some seem to think the drabbest snakes with the broken banding are examples of what "pure" wild types should resemble. In other words the Honduran Milk with perfect banding an no tipping is already a far cry form a wild type, even though it is not a morph.... Thanks for chiming in Tom Stevens

Tom:

I don't follow the Florida herpetology scene all that closely, so I'm sure there are others here with a MUCH better grasp of the details of pattern variation in Florida getula populations. But, here's what I know (and which you may already know as well!):

1) Richard Blaney, in the published version of his doctoral dissertation from Louisiana State University (1977), considered the subspecies goini, brooksi, and sticticeps as regional variants of the subspecies L. g. getula. He also sunk the southwestern U.S. & Baja California subspecies yumensis, nitida, and conjuncta (regarding all as versions of L. g. californiae). His conclusions were subsequently widely adopted by other herpetologists and these name changes were reflected in virtually all field guides. The "Blaney taxonomy" is in current use.

2) In 2001, Bruce Means and Kenneth Krysko published a short paper in the online journal Contemporary Herpetology, which you can read here:

http://www.calacademy.org/research/herpetology/ch/ch/2001/5/index.htm

They examined aspects of color pattern of Florida populations to reach the same conclusions as Blaney had many years earlier regarding the validity of the subspecies goini and brooksi.

3) The most recent and in-depth treatment of southeastern L. getula is by Krysko in his doctoral dissertation at Univ. of Florida (2002). He used morphological characters as well as molecular evidence to examine relationships among southeastern U.S. populations, but he also looked at the species as a whole. In addition to affirming the distinctiveness of L. g. getula and L. g. floridana, he proposed formal recognition (but did not offer a name) for the populations occurring in the eastern Apalachicola Lowlands. To my knowledge, Krysko has not yet published this work.

As for "brilliant line bred" specimens of thayeri and relatives being a far cry from 'wild types', I think to some extent this is correct. However, it seems as though the RANGE of pattern variation one finds among captive-bred thayeri does indeed occur among wild populations, though it's not entirely clear whether there are geographic patterns to this variation. But, persistent selection by breeders has emphasized certain color and pattern elements to produce remarkable looking snakes, and I doubt that such animals would be common in nature (these patterns would be swamped out against the background of natural pattern variation).

Cheers,

Bob

1) Richard Blaney, in the published version of his doctoral dissertation from Louisiana State University (1977), considered the subspecies goini, brooksi, and sticticeps as regional variants of the subspecies L. g. getula. He also sunk the southwestern U.S. & Baja California subspecies yumensis, nitida, and conjuncta (regarding all as versions of L. g. californiae). His conclusions were subsequently widely adopted by other herpetologists and these name changes were reflected in virtually all field guides. The "Blaney taxonomy" is in current use.

I have this dissertation and you are right but Brooksi was not considered a variant of L.g.g. but of L.g.floridana with L.g.sticticeps being considered a variant of L.g.g.

Keith

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Keith:

Right you are. Thanks for clarifying this--I was speed reading!

Bob

>>I appreciate Keith bringing this topic up for discussion. I am a biologist who also happens to have a keen interest in mexicana-complex kingsnakes. The lack of ready (= legal) access to known-locality animals from Mexico has been a big problem for U.S. breeders. The strong inter-fertility of these snakes has made it tempting to mix members of the group (alterna, thayeri, ruthveni, greeri, mexicana) in various combinations, the products of which might not be visually obvious--especially if a hybrid is bred back to one of the parent species. I suspect that a number of these unnatural products have been incorporated into breeding lines over the last 20 or so years without the knowledge of the breeders involved. This certainly poses a problem for those of us interested in acquiring the “real deal.” Thus, although I appreciate the sentiment that all of this ought to be a matter of personal choice on the part of individual breeders, we all bear some responsibility to ensure that the animals we enjoy will continue to be available in a genetically uncontaminated form.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Bob Hansen
>>rwh13@csufresno.edu
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...and who really is to say, especially with Lampropeltis? Years ago, I adopted a personal motto for this sort of thing: The only snakes whose locality I can attest to are those which I have personally collected, were captured on a trip I was part of, or offspring sired by my wild adults. Otherwise, I would just be taking somebody's word for it. A friend told me the story once about seeing a bucket full of rosy boas which had been collected around southern Baja. The person who had caught them, a commercial collector, began sorting through and would say (to paraphrase), "This looks like Constitucion, that one La Paz", etc, etc. and sell them as such. These snakes, I'm sure, sired some percentage of the current gene pool of boas in the US and these were the same guys who supplied us with the first Sinaloan milksnakes and mexicana-complex animals, too.

Once the impetus to make money comes into the equation, and the pressure is on to produce animals, it's pretty easy to believe whatever you want to. We've probably all seen L.t. arcifera at one point or another. I handled about half a dozen wild animals that were collected aroung the original locality type near Rancho Santa Barbara, Jalisco when I was there in 2000 and 2001. Each one looked different and none of them really looked like the arcifera that are being sold here in the US today. Now I know the biology of Lampropeltis better than the guys who caught them, but what do you think the answer would've been had I expressed an interest in buying those animals on the one condition that they were "locality matched"? Of course, the answer would have been "yes".

Particularly with the well-entrenched animals of which no new, wild blood is coming into the market, like the mexicanas, I wouldn't be too quick to make any speculation about the geographic origin of my animals unless I had caught it myself.

Good post Erik.
I agree with you on one thing and that is, " I wouldn't be too quick to make any speculation about the geographic origin of my animals unless I had caught it myself. "
But...........
How much wild blood do we have in the hobby anymore? Most animals are line bred for color, design, etc. How many Californiae are collected from the wild to spice up breeding? Not many. How many wild collected Hondurans are coming to the states? Not many since we have made many morphs and will not need wild blood to continue to make morphs. Same goes for Brooksi.
I do know the Alterna ssp. still has much wild blood in the hobby.
Thayeri, Greeri, Ruthveni and Mexicana does not, but One can spot a cross if he/she knows anything about the mexicana complex. Now, as in all kingsnake species, hardly anyone can look at a snake and tell its specific locale.
It all goes back to the honesty and sincerity of the breeder. Everyone knows that there are bad apples in every hobby/business and this CANNOT be avoided. I just hope there are many more honest breeders than bogus liars!
And we, as experienced herpers, should teach the right way to newbies and beginning breeders.
Peace,
John Lassiter

As far as what is wild type.....if even line breeding creates perfect banding with no tipping then already it is taking away from the wild type look. Many people are so morphed out that we just don't even look at it that way anymore. This is why I say the hobby was never perfect from the beginning...and it only gets worse. Leading me to say this is only a hobby and our hopes of turning back the clock and fixing it all will never happen. I think even if we made massive efforts to keep things as pure as we can, 5 or 10 years from now the newbies of the future will be doubters just like we are and the cycle will start all over again....I have a feeling that is why older herpers hate the net....and basically seem to keep thier thoughts to themselves. Tom Stevens

We're on the same page here but I disagree with a portion of your statment. I think that animals that we have COME TO KNOW AND CALL greeri, thayeri, mex mex, etc. are well established in the hobby but I think we really have no way of knowing what lineage these animals actually represent.

My only gripe is that we accept these based upon assumption. For example, I spent 6 years beating the daylights out of Sacramento, Yolo, and El Dorado Counties for Cal Kings and have caught between 300-350 snakes during my years there. I always felt pretty confident that I could ID a cal king from one of those districts. That being said, there were always a handful each year which were complete surprises: Didn't look like the rest of them and frankly, if somebody had walked up to me blindly, pulled one of those guys out of a pillowcase and asked me where it was from, I would've guessed wrong.

Relating that to the mexicana complex we're talking about, I would make a pretty safe bet that the founder specimens for our current inventory of these guys was nowhere near 300-350 animals. More importantly, nobody has any idea where said animals came from and what most of the animals one would catch there look like. So it's really just speculation and assumption. I guess I don't have a philosophical problem with people being really adamant about this thayeri or that greeri but lets be honest with ourselves: The name means nothing outside of the hobby because the animal is so far removed from what the wild form might actually be.

Erik......this is what my opinion is,

Don't you wish you could spend a few months travelling from Nuevo Leon to Durango to Queretaro and then to San Luis Potosi, Mexico just hunting snakes and collecting data just as you have done in California?

How would one go about doing this? How would one obtain the proper permits and be able to remove a CERTAIN amount of these snakes and bring them across the border? All these Mexican states are all pretty near to me since I live in South Texas.

I know of some Mexicana mexicana from San Luis Potosi, Mexico that were confiscated at the Texas / Mexico border in the early 90's that were being smuggled into the US. I have 2 of the descendants from these animals. But, there again you must trust your dealer (who I do 100% in this case). These are the "classic" looking Mex mex. These thayeri, greeri, ruthveni and mexmex I keep are not locale specific in terms of being from Chihuahua Hwy in San Luis Potosi, but rather snakes from that state in Mexico. Hell look at he Honduran milksnake that is named after the whole country not even after a state in the small country.

Tim Gebhardt from Vivid Reptiles has Thayeri from Nuevo Leon, Mexico that come directly from the wild and I trust him 100% also. These wild collected species are what us Mexicana heads call "buckskin leonis phase". But I think after years of line breeding certain genes are kept and gathered generation after generation. These genes compiled may produce kinked and deformed offspring or they can produce brightly colored offspring in hues not seen in the "wild". This is determined which genes were compiled in each breeding (the bad genes or the good genes). Outcrossing will take care of the "bad" genes.

All this is done not through natural selection but selective breeding that has a snowball's chance in hell occuring in the wild.

-John Lassiter-

Bob,
could you perhaps with your Biological background post any information that our Mexicana complex snakes that we have in our collections are infact where they are said to be from? When I say "where they are from" I mean what state in Mexico and or mountain range.
I breed and keep all mexicana species and believe them to be from wild collected animals in said Mexican state. What information can you share?
Are what we call San Luis Potosi kings actually from that state?
Are what we call Nuevo Leon kings from Nuevo Leon, Mexico?
and so forth with Greeri and Ruthveni.
Now, we all know line breeding changed the way certain ssp. look now, but that happens in all species of selective breeding. Natural selection is taken away. And not only the strong survive rahter most or all survive in captivity.
Thank you,
John Lassiter

Hi John:

There are a number of folks who have excellent knowledge of mexicana complex snakes from the native ranges in Mexico (and I am not among them!). Among these, at least in the U.S., are Tim Gebhard, Dan Vermilya, Ric Blair, Dave Barker, Bob Applegate, Gerry Salmon, and no doubt others; they have considerable experience either in the field in Mexico (mainly the "oldtimers" or at least with known-locality material. To my limited knowledge, U.S. captive stock of greeri, mex mex, and ruthveni are derived from very few localities in Mexico. For example, nearly all greeri are descended from snakes originally collected from Rancho Santa Barbara in Durango and thus we have but a tiny fraction of the greeri gene pool represented. Most mex mex are probably from the Valle de las Fantasmas in San Luis Potosi, while ruthveni stock seems to have come from near Amealco in the state of Queretaro (though this species is common in a number of other places). Thayeri, on the other hand, are perhaps derived from more diverse (yet unknown) localities, certainly including the state of Nuevo Leon, but possibly also from Tamaulipas and San Luis Potosi. Further, thayeri occupies diverse habitats from Chihuahuan Desert-edge foothills into pine-oak forests and even into the subtropical forests east of Galeana in NL (I'm sure you've seen Tim G.'s excellent photos on his web site).

Sorry not to have more answers! Mexicana complex snakes are extraordinarily interesting, for both aesthetic and biological reasons.

cheers,

bob

Thank you Bob for your input here. I believe most of my Mexicana snakes to be from bloodlines in the SAID Mexican states although they have been line bred and have a "different" look to them.

I have this belief that you can line breed for certain traits over generations and produce a bigger, better specimen. I think this belief is very common in this hobby.

As I stated earlier in this thread, when line breeding occurs similar genes are compiled and gathered until they are dominant.
Sometimes these similar genes (after generations of breeding)can produce gorgeous, clean patterned specimens, but sometimes similar genes can have a negative effect like kinked babies, infertility and deformities. For this reason I have more than a few strains of mexicana to outcross with.

I wish one could do some field research throughout the Mexicana range and bring needed information and blood back into the hobby.

peace,
-John Lassiter-

I also personally regard with horror the crossing of species to make various hybrids for profit or fun. However, I can see crossing of subspecies, or different morphs, in some cases, like with the corn/GPR complex, where the gene pool is already so diluted, and they are so obviously domesticated pets. Designer corns are a reality. Unfortunately, many hobbyists think "jungle corns", or whatever, are a reality too, and should be accepted. Well, I don't think we'll ever change the fact that they're there. I concentrate on what I do have control over.

Whenever I decide to get a new snake, or start keeping a new species, I spend quite a bit of time researching the animal and the people who I might buy from. I'm currently in the market for a few kingsnakes right now (meaning I'll probably buy next summer). I usually get locality animals, as close to w/c as I can, so as to avoid diluted genes and inbreeding, or identity problems. I usually only buy from friends or breeders that I personally know. I think a person's reputation is their most valuable asset. I ask a lot of questions from the breeder. I've had times when they have not wanted to deal with me. I expect the same in return. I think it is our responsibility to get the best specimens we can and to always know as much as possible about our captives.

It's the average consumer who buys from pet stores, breeders they don't know, buys snakes they hardly even know the names of, etc, that turn around and try to sell stuff to the public that they can't guarantee anything about. Part of our responsiblity is to not be the average consumer, or pretend to be. We will only breed excellence if we demand excellence of ourselves and others. Then we will guarantee that at least part of the hobby is preserving a part of nature that is "the real deal". We can't stop the rest from being what it is.

I believe there are a lot of top notch breeders out there and there are some totally awesome herps. It's getting better all the time as the committed herpers keep getting better and keep adding to their captive stock. It's like any other aspect of society, supply and demand. It's there 'cus people want it. Can you all see the difference bt. the diehard herper/hobbyist and the general public having a few pets? They don't play on the same field...LOL.

Here's to everyone having an exceptional 2005 season and finding everything they're looking for this year. (Sorry for being so windy tonight)...

TC

Good response, I agree with what you said.

Here's to everyone having an exceptional 2005 season and finding everything they're looking for this year.

Sweet, yeah I hope to find an albino northern brown snake, lol, what do you think my chances of that are?
Michael
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Terry...you said, It's getting better all the time as the committed herpers keep getting better and keep adding to their captive stock. I wanted to mention last year I tried to get some normal females for my Brooksi projects. I live in Texas but I was actually in south Florida for 6 weeks last January. Florida herpers thought I was nuts making such a fuss, yet get all giddy over Texas Rats[which on the flipside don't get much attention here in TX]. I told everyone I spoke with that this was important to me, and how many people I knew were very into Floridana in general. I was even told I was wasting my time....and also that many of the well known lines of Brooksi[ones with breeders names attatched to them] were all from the same stretch of canal. I understand many of the points you made, but in my experience finding the quality snakes you are referring too is no easy task. I know EXACTLY hat you mean when you said you get the cold shoulder from some people who get sick of answering questions before the sale. I drove many people nuts before I finally bought snakes from them and I too feel it is the ones who are willing to take the time to talk about the snakes because they LOVE them and not only because of the money who have the best animals, and are the simply above average keepers. I told a few wholesalers and dealers in Florida I would buy a bucket full of nice Floridana, even WCs. Even those guys had CB extras and were no help with finding me some fresh blood. Keep in mind I was there 6 weeks,.....I came home with 3 Brooksi and 1 was a hypo. If you do know anyone with some relatively new blood please email me. Thanks Tom Stevens

Hi, Tom. That's quite a committment. I wish you the best of luck with your brooksi projects. I work with quite a few species, but not that one. Mostly I work with ratsnakes, especially Eurasian ratsnakes. I'm just starting some kingsnake projects and don't really have too many contacts along those lines. But I do understand what you're trying to do. I go a lot of places to find stuff too. But I really like doing field work. Someday I hope to have a couple unique Cal king projects and pyros from my favorite mtn. range. Anyway, you and others have a couple species you really specialize in. I tend to have small numbers of about a dozen different species/races, etc. But I try to make every snake count and be exactly what I want, not what someone wants to buy. I just sell any extras I might have (not many). If I learn of any cool projects with brooksi, I'll let you know.

TC

Thanks Terry, seems I am your vice verca as I frequent the Rat Snake forum but never post as I don't have any in my collection now. Figures I like the hardest ones too work with like Gonyosama for example. Please let me know if you stumble across any non morph Floridana/ Brooksi fanatics. Take it easy Tom Stevens

Wow, you guys have some interesting discussions here. I can certainly sympathize with what you are saying Keith, but in the end, I support the notion that everyone should have the right to enjoy their hobby as they see fit. Honestly, some of my best friends in this hobby are really big into morphs/hybrids and all sorts of abominations. As for myself, I have no interest what so ever in anything but strict locality animals. I view unnatural genetically engineered morphs as essentially non-snakes. I find them completely unworthy of my time and a waste of feeder rodents. I keep nothing but strict locality snakes. I keep my lines pure, and I prefer to collect my own when legal. If this means I have to travel half way across the country to do so, I do exactly that. That being said, I respect the thoughts and interests of others that may differ from my own, and usually we can all find some common ground on some level. In other words, if they accept my crazyness I will accept theirs lol! I do agree that we should all be responsible with whatever we keep whether that means honest representation of snakes we breed or making sure nothing gets out to contaminate the local gene pool.
Phil

I think that is awesome you take it upon yourself to collect when you can to keep things pure. Especially since you seem very dedicated to what you strive to accomplish. However one of the reasons I stopped going into the field was because of all the available captive bred snakes on the market. I am in central Texas but in west TX it is well known many people go collecting. Some are guys like yourself.....I would bet you're a "take only what you need' type of guy. But we all know others have no regard for anything but the dollar signs and will collect anything and everything they can with no guilt. Someone recently told me they came across a person who was collecting collared lizards. He was complaining that he used to be able to catch 50 to 100 in a day. He was wondering why there was barely any around the same area. Apparently he had no idea people like him were wiping out a population of those lizards. I mean I know people who catch and release...take a few pics and whatnot. That's a lot of fun. But many herpers started to depend more and more on what's readily available as far as being bred in captivity. I lived in South Florida for a year or so in 97. If I had any idea finding these Floridana [I mean some fresh bloodlines] would be this much of a pain I would've hunted every day and night! In closing I want to say that some people do have their secret spots....just like fishermen, and I can undertsand why they're kept secret. But seeing the hobby could use a boost as far as non hybridized snakes to work with I wish some newer bloodlines would be available. I was going to keep a pair of normal Floridana/Brooksi just to attempt to have some offspring like that for my other Kingsnake friends. I will keep lookin....got any Floridana pics from the field? Please post them Thanks Tom Stevens

You have me figured out fairly well Tom. I advocate collecting, but only responsible collecting. As an example, I keep field notes on every herp we see in the state and document each find to the quarter quad level. We give all of our information to the state herpetologist with the DNR each month and correspond regularly. Last year was a typical year for us in KY as to snakes found, with the final tally being 700 live specimens. Of these, we collected none.I had collected breeding stock in previous years and have no need to collect any additional new blood presently. Down the road I probably will though. With king snakes for example, we found 64 in the field in 2004, and 54 in 2003 in the state. Never have I sold a field collected snake. I truly enjoy observing the snakes in their natural habitat, and to me it makes my hobby more complete and interesting. I feel a little sad for the hobbyist who's only experience is looking at a snake in a rubbermaid at a reptile show, and has never had the opportunity to see them in the field. I do have a number of pics of king snakes in Florida and the habitat. I will try to get that up when I can get a chance.

That's cool Phil. I know the captive bred only crowd has its problems but I do like the fact the most now realise the benefits of keeping mostly CB animals. Have you ever come across any intergrades that were possibly hybrids in the field? I am interested to know about this to any degree but especially if it was something as outrageous as say some sort of Central American Milk which appeared to have bred with any of the local snakes you often find near you. Usualy the claims of hybridized snakes in wild [that I have found on the net anyways} are photo shopped pranks or just someones mistake identifying something. I tell you what bothers me way more than this whole Hybrid debate....and that's the Everglades current problems with large constrictors released PUROPSELY into the wild. I know they're taking their toll on birds and other wildlife and that really stinks. I love the looks of many of those huge snakes but they're just not for everyone, definitely not me and apparently not for many idiots that get tired of dealing with them when they're full grown. I wonder if the impact of snakes which shouldn't be in the wild is dramatically less in the northern half of the US due to a much harsher winter? I would guess yes....but then again the desert is not a very hospitable place either. Throw in the fact that brightly colored snakes most likely make easier targets for predators and I kind of think all this worry over ruining nature is somewhat exagerated....but do not get me wrong. I have a few man made snakes but irresposibility is the bottom line. That goes for man made or natural snakes from where I see it. I very much understand both sides of the debate...but being responsible snake keepers is the key to keeping nature,,,,,,natural. I look forward to seeing some Florida field pics. Thanks Tom Stevens

You said it all there. Being responsible is the key. I would have to say that of the thousands of snakes I have seen in the field over the years, I have never seen anything that I would describe as any sort of unnatural hybrid or intergrade. I guess the possibility would go up exponentially in more settled areas where there would be a higher probability of there being pet keepers with snakes.

Phil, I agree with you wholeheartedly. The hobby wouldn't be nearly as much fun for me w/o the time I have spent in the field. Here's a pic of my very first pyro that I found in 2003 in the Santa Rita Mtns, AZ. This is one of my favorite kingsnakes....

Although it had much more black than red, and most would think it's kinda ugly, it was one of the nicest pyros I had ever seen. At the time I let it go where I found it because I wasn't quite ready to start keeping pyros, but I will someday.

Another one of my favorite kings is the Eastern milksnake, what we like to call the red kingsnake here in MI. I've been studying these all my life and love to know about their natural history and behaviors. I've seen all kinds of color/pattern variations and keep a couple as pets and to study. Here's one I saw on the last day of August, 2004, and thought about keeping, and didn't. She had an aberrant pattern and interesting colors...

The two I've collected in the last couple years were both newborns with interesting patterns and colors. They make fair pets, if you can acclimate them, and babies are the easiest. They almost never have any parasite problems as far north as where we live.

Take care....TC

Very nice snakes Terry. I have never been in the distribution range of any of the mountain kings, but I could imagine how thrilling it must be to see one of those beauties in the field.

I have always had a keen interest in the various triangulum that are found in our area. I think the eastern is a very underappreciated snake for sure. Here we have easterns, reds and their intergrades. The intergrades are particularly interesting to me due to the individual diversity they show within a given population. Neat snakes all!

You do live in a very interesting area, Phil. I've always thought KY was one of the most beautiful states with great diversity. You have the good fortune to have three kings, whereas we have just the one. In my whole life I've been restricted to studying just three constrictors in MI, the milk and the two fox snakes. I love them all, but can't wait to get more diversified. I've always been interested in the milksnake distribution and subspecies too. I think you have a great opportunity there to study the interactions and varieties of snakes. In a few yrs. I'll be living in AZ and will then have plenty of animals to search for and time to do it. Should be fun. I always appreciate reading your posts and seeing animals you find, Phil. Keep up the good work.

PS: A bunch of us from MI and OH are meeting in April for a weekend in s. OH this spring. You're welcome to join us. Shoot me an email sometime if you're interested. Later....

Terry

>>Very nice snakes Terry. I have never been in the distribution range of any of the mountain kings, but I could imagine how thrilling it must be to see one of those beauties in the field.
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>>I have always had a keen interest in the various triangulum that are found in our area. I think the eastern is a very underappreciated snake for sure. Here we have easterns, reds and their intergrades. The intergrades are particularly interesting to me due to the individual diversity they show within a given population. Neat snakes all!

I sorta agree with you Phil but the fact is that the hobbyist that deals in hybrids and unnatural intergrages can affect me and my projects. Ive never heard anyone on the hybrid forum say hey I paid for a such and such hybrid and it ended up being a normal or I found out it had a 3rd type of snake in it rather than the advertised 2. Im exaggerating a bit of course but its true. I see more and more guys saying I purchased this as that but someone said it looked more like this. My problem is what percentage even bother to ask ??? Also Phil lets consider snakes getting loose as well. I know of a semi well known S Florida breeder who released 100's of baby het for axanthic and hypo Brooksi Kings along the Canals in Homestead. Now imagine if instead of simply having recessive mutations they were hybrids that he couldnt sell or whatever. Reminds me of Jurrasic Park when everything was so fool proof but Jeff Goldblums character kept saying the laws of choas can show up etc...and make the implausible plausible, and I dont need to tell you the end result of that flick. So if we keep making hybrids a T Rex will pop up from a King Corn Thayeri hybrid and we will all be sorry !lol

Keith
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I would that is true Keith. Buyer beware as they say. I would only consider acquiring a locality snake from someone I know and trust, or as I mentioned previously, field collect it myself if possible.

Something else though. Whether a snake is a generic or a locality, anything that gets unleashed into the local ecosystem could potentially compromise its purity unless the locality snake that escapes was found in the area of your house.

The very thought of it makes me cringe! lol!

Know what you're saying but this isn't a very good example. The snake in question looks nothing like a pueblan. Here its more about people buying first and asking questions later. My take is the snake is a very clean arcifera.