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Found in northern california on a a large portion of private property. This snake is well documented as are many others.

Gopher X calif king

Is this snake worthless because it does not fit into everyones neat little box of what a pure form should be?

For me, the key word here is "natural." I try to stay out of these arguments because I don't really think many minds are being changed (kind of like discussing religion or politics). Maybe some young herpers will read both sides of the issue and make up their own minds. There is no doubt in my mind that "un-natural" intergrades and hybrids cause alot of confusion and mis-labelling. My 2 cents.

Greg

Natural getula intergrade.

I'm far, far, far from being an expert on this, but would a cross between a gopher snake and a kingsnake be considered an "intergrade"? This is a cross at the genus level; we consider crosses at the species level to be "hybrids." The range of various kingsnakes and pits overlap in huge areas of North America. Is this the only naturally documented cross between them? Why? Is there any scientific documentation of this isolated population you mention?

Greg

This is the first example I've seen of a Pituophis x Lampropeltis.

Many Lampropeltis x Pantherophis are out there, and turbo corns are Pituophis x Pantherophis, but pits x kings are hard to find. Good job. Cross it with a Pantherophis, and a triadic merge of North American colubrids is born!

Just keep them out of the wild, and certain people's collections.

Its simply a freak of nature Rainer and has no bearing at all on the captive hybrid debate.

Keith
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I think the relevance is the notion that hybridizers are playing "God" sometimes God also plays God.

A freak, yes but by using our recently nominated terminology a "natural freak"

I don't own any hybrids, and I'm not particularly interested in them. I think the problems of buying supposedly "pure" animals that turn out to be hybrids are way over blown. If you have questions about particular animals ask. If you are still skeptical walk away. I know that we've all "not bought" animals that we weren't sure of but we set our own parameters to what is personaly acceptable as pure. Most locality breeders have set a very high threshold for "pure" and are very cautious when purchasing new stock/lines/local....this makes it difficult to obtain exactly what is desired, it also makes finding and obtaining the desired animals much more rewarding.

It wouldn't be much fun if it was easy.

Bob Bull

>>It wouldn't be much fun if it was easy.
>>Bob Bull

LOL, i liked that, Bob.

Fact is though that hybrids can be tough to spot. Especially because some people seem to have the objective of creating counterfeits you can "pass at the bank," as it were.

At the Daytona show its first year i ran across a guy with a yearling "het/albino pyro" on his table for $150. It looked authentic, and i would have bought it but as soon as I asked the breeder how he produced it he conceded it was a hybrid (nelsoni or ruthveni, i forget which). anyway, i asked the key questions and he was honest. Not everyone would ask and not everyone would tell the truth. I suggested he label it more fully and an hour later noticed that he had. A good guy who came close to doing some harm to someone, or to many of us.

td

Don't tell me this is coming down to morality and an issue of religion too. Your responce was cute but the fact of the matter is that Rainer's post is relevant. To insinuate otherwise is absolute bovine feces.

Remember that animal’s speciate because of breeding barriers. Many of these barriers are external to the animal and are only a function of the various ecological niches animals inhabit. The reason many snakes will hybridize in captivity is because those barriers are broken down. Environmental disturbances can break the barriers down too. In the event of natural disaster the playing field is leveled and any given species losses its advantage when the niche it evolved to fill is altered. When this happens specialized animals are pressed to become generalist in order to survive. In this context, I think hybridization is VERY likely. In the case of Rainer’s example the disturbance is likely human impact but climate change, fire, drought, earthquakes, loss of prey species………are all natural disasters that could and likely have been pressing otherwise reproductively isolated animals into swapping some genetic material for millennia.

If this very likely scenario were true it would mean that current notions of purity are completely shallow. People see herpetofuna as static when it’s most likely that what we see now is a mere snapshot of the evolutionary process. Regardless of how well we love our "pure" stock we've got to admitt the very real possiblility that there might be a little pituophis in the wood pile. Don't bite my head off for saying this Sean but I always though goini looked a little pit-ish.

>>Found in northern california on a a large portion of private property. This snake is well documented as are many others.

Rainer,

1) maybe it's authentic.
2) a more logical explanation would be that it's a man-made release.
3) "many" is a term that can be misleading: five other reports of this same hybrid? (I concur with other posters here that, naturally-occurring or not, it's a hybrid, not an intergrade) A hundred reports? Who collected it? Has the collection date and place and collector been published, as one would think would be the case with such an unusual find? Have others been collected from the same area? This is all evidence to help us decide whether 1) or 2) above is the more likely correct explanation. Given its import to the hobby and to science, surely someone would have rounded up all those reports and published a summary by now, wouldn't they? If so, give us a reference. If not, please offer to share all the reports you're aware of with someone who would get the info published. That's important stuff, to impt to toss around casually and without attribution on the forum.

peace
terry

If that snake is a wild caught, how do you know exactly what was bred to what to produce this? Just because it may look like a Gopher X Cal King cross doesn't mean it is. Just curious as to how you determined what it is.

That same snake was posted by Fundad on fieldherpe, err, you know, that site we can't say here. He posted it early last year. He asked everyone what they thought it was, and everyone seemed to think it was a Cal King X Gopher snake. That is what it looks like to me. Another poster mentioned he had found a couple of those at a different locality. I have also heard of GopherXGlossy and GopherXCoachwhips being found, and have seen pictures of at least one of those posted on one of the field herping forums.

Yeah I remember that as well but that doesnt mean that its not an escapee. I had a guy from NJ email me with a pic of a Cal King he found in his backyard he thought it was an Eastern King. Also there isnt any proof that snake is a hybrid it looks like it could be but without some kinda genetic testing who really knows.

Keith
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...but I don't think genetic testing isn't necessary. Gopher snakes and kingsnakes possess different scalation, pattern, coloration, etc... and if enough intermediate traits are indentified, I think it's safe to conclude the hybrid status. I really doubt that snake is a released captive... possibly, but I think we'd have seen a PituophisXLampropeltis on the market (I haven't seen it) before we'd see a released captive-produced hybrid on a remote tract of land. Regardless, I don't think the existence of a wild hybrid really proves any point.

Speaking of those Cal Kings found in NJ, I was talking with a breeder from Orlando who was telling me how people had told him all about how they were finding cal kings in Plant City, FL. He had a W/C king from Hillsborough County that looked kind of like a CalXFlorida King... I don't know... he probably still has it, I should try to get a picture of it next time I see him.

I don't think genetic testing would be necessary in determining that snake is a hybrid.

I know it seems like I'm picking on you Keith but give me a break. If that animals had been presented as a new line of odd captive-bred Cal king, you'd have been the first to infer that it was a hybrid. Now that it might be a wild hybrid and fly in the face of what we beleive about purity you dismiss it and say you really can't say without genetic testing?

BS Tony you. I simply said you cant prove thats a Hybrid just by looking at it. One can speculate just like when I see something odd I will speculate. One thing Ive never ever EVER said before was I know without doubt what the hell an animal was that looked questionable . Site an example where someone posted a possible hybrid or least one I thought was and I said without a doubt thats a hybrid. Can you say with 100% certainty that this animal is in fact a natural hybrid or even a hybrid at all ? Also Im not saying it isnt a hybrid but what I was saying is that everybody assumed it was just on appearance. Is that good science Tony ? You strike me as a smart guy Tony but for you to blindly believe thats a hybrid without some proof is a bit foolish. The other possibility raised was what if it is an escapee ? I guess you guys can tell that by looking at it as well that its a wild snake and not CB ??? Tony you do seem to be doggin' me here and I must admit Im feeling like you are trollin a little bit for me. I asked for your input a few days ago on your ideas about locality by geography instead of political boundries and I guess you didnt feel the need to chime unless its an opprotunity to be confrontational on my posts. Are ya just bitter that my guy Bush pounded that lib Kerry ? lol Im kidding of course

Keith

>>I know it seems like I'm picking on you Keith but give me a break. If that animals had been presented as a new line of odd captive-bred Cal king, you'd have been the first to infer that it was a hybrid. Now that it might be a wild hybrid and fly in the face of what we beleive about purity you dismiss it and say you really can't say without genetic testing?

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Yes one can speculate but you totally discounted the animals as a freak of nature irrelevant to the discussion.

It wasn't to aweful many years ago that we didn't have genetic testing. IMHO its as safe to say Rainer's example is a hybrid as it is to say that any of the animals you post are eastern kings.

I don't know if good science requires you use every tool at your disposal but I do know that it requires you not to discount the obvious as irrelevant.

And no I'm not bitter but I see you're still gloating.

Where did I say this animal is irrelevant ? I simply said you cant say for sure that its a Hybrid or thats its not captive bred. Fact one Tony its far more common to find Hybrids in captivity then in the wild. Agree ? So I think for that reason but not only that reason you can raise a flag on that snake that its an escapee. Again Im not sayingh it is im simply raising raising the question. Wasnt it you who said you cant for sure know what anything is unless you catch it yourself ? Did you catch this snake ?

Keith

p.s. Yes Im still gloating and lovin' it.
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Okay Keith you're right. I'm done. It was foolish of me to try and point out a double standard in the first place.