Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had two of my frogs die a few months back, one who i had in a terrarium with two others. I suspected that it was parasites, so i called all local vets to see who might do a fecal exam. Well, it seemed that i was not going to find any one who would even attempt it. Then i did find one who said that he would, but all he came up with was that they had worms, but wasn't sure what kind.
So i posted here and i was told about DVM Frye. He examined the sample i sent, and told me they had hookworm, lungworm and coccidia.
He wondered if where i got them was where they got the coccidia.
So i read up on coccidia, and found that beavers can contaminate a drinking supply and people become ill. In humans it can be cured, and not in the frogs. So i wondered about the moss i had gotten from a swamp, that had a beaver dam, and huts. But, it seems that the beaver have not been there for years. Yet could my frogs have got it this way?
Then i read that there are hundreds of types of it, and each is specific to a certain type of animal. So perhaps it is not from the moss...
In a vet guide i have here for farm animals, it also says coccidia reaches its peak and dies out. ... i wonder why is it stays with frogs?
The thing that gets me is that before i got any frogs i studied for like six months,several hours a day and i never read anything about coccidia, and not much more on worms found in darts.

-amanda

Hi Amanda,

There are thousands of types of coccidia. Coccidia has not been proven or dis-proven to be host specific. Coccidia can live over two years in moist soil.
There is not a known cure for coccidia yet. You can treat a mammal by medicating and getting the coccidia numbers down low enough so that the animal’s own immune system wipes out the rest. Most amphibians are not bothered by coccidia. Dart frogs unfortunately are. An amphibians immune system , basically, ignores coccidia. In those species not bothered by coccidia, this is no big deal. In Darts it is a big deal because having no immune system , and being bothered by coccidia, you can not (as of yet ) ever wipe out the coccidia. We can bring down the number of coccidia ( by medicating ) in a Dart to the point where it is not effecting the Dart . But as of yet, no cure.
Hook worms, and lung worms can be picked up by external means (out-of-doors collections).
I would not want to speculate on how your frogs contracted nematodes or coccidia. I do know that tanks can/will be infested by external objects.
To find and ingest good medical info on Darts can be tough. This is one of the reasons I do not advocate introducing many objects from our locals into a Dart tank.
I hope this helps Amanda.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

" Coccidia has not been proven or dis-proven to be host specific."

When I wrote this, my meaning was that not ALL coccidia can be proven or dis-proven to be host specific.
Sorry.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

"In Darts it is a big deal because having no immune system"

I was not trying to say that Darts are void of an imune system, just void of one that takes on coccidia.
Sorry once again.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

Rich, thank you for the helpful imput.

I have read several places that all darts carry worms. And by takind a weekly med they can be less under stress by them and their effects.

"I have read several places that all darts carry worms. And by takind a weekly med they can be less under stress by them and their effects."

Could you please point out where you have read that all darts carry worms? I can say that I have had fecals run on my darts, indicating no parasites at all. Perhaps I have simply been fortunate, but I also know of several other dart keepers who indicate that, in their experience, that first statement rings untrue for them.

As for prophylactically treating darts for parasites, I personally feel that is an irresponsible treatment regimen for two reasons: (1) by constantly treating an animal at a (presumably) lower dose, you can be selecting for medicine resistant parasites; and (2) we have no data on how long term treatment will affect darts.

I am sure others will have a different point of view, and they are welcome to that point of view, but I think that it is a better idea to monitor your frogs by having fecals run at certain intervals and treating them (and removing them from the tank/source of infection) if the fecals come back positive.

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Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

I believe i have read that all darts carry worms, at Chris v/d Lingens Dendrobatesworld.com. (the maker of Dendrocare vitamin. and i'm not sure if i also read it in a dart book or two, I'll have to check. And in my notes i have Brian Monk DVM wrote 100% of frogs histopatology have had some eveience of parasitism.
I had DVM Frye do a fecal and a few of my frogs had coccidia, along with lung and hook worms. For the coccidia he gave me a medication that he said to use with each feeding. And for the worms, a weekly dusting of Panacur. David Frye uses the medication on his own frogs with what must be a favorable amount of positive results.
i have spoke to one person who said a few of his darts had coccidia and he used the med with each feeding, and his frogs died. But who knows any of the unknown factors that may have contributed or been the cause of the deaths.
You wrote; " think that it is a better idea to monitor your frogs by having fecals run at certain intervals and treating them "
but coccidia is not curable in darts, i've been told. and "and removing them from the tank/source of infection) if the fecals come back positive. " So if i had a new aquarium, unused, and i set it up with live plants, moss and such. Then i had a frog that was possitive for worms. (but this was the first fecal check) what would you think?
Do you/ would you use any plants of moss that you've collected? thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.- amanda

I read through the Dendrobatesworld.com website, but was unable to find a quote about all frogs having parasites. Perhaps if you could point me to the quote, that would be great. Regardless of whether it was said or not, that is an untrue statement, as I have seen several fecals done that indicated no parasites . . . and I think Dr. Frye will attest to the fact that he has run fecals that indicate no parasites.

With regard to Dr. Monk's statement, I believe you are taking it the wrong way. A histopathology is a tissue examination that is taken on dead frogs when parasites are suspected as the cause. So, the frogs tested in histopath were already showing signs of parasitism, and actually died from it. That does not mean that all frogs have parasites. Further, consider that Dr. Frye's percentage comes from fecals that have been submitted to a vet. Most people are not going to submit a fecal unless they think their frog is sick. That is like saying that 90% of humans are ill because 90% of those tested in an emergency room have the flu.

"'and removing them from the tank/source of infection) if the fecals come back positive. ' So if i had a new aquarium, unused, and i set it up with live plants, moss and such. Then i had a frog that was possitive for worms. (but this was the first fecal check) what would you think?"

I'm not sure I understand your question here, but it seems to me that you have two potential origins of the parasites: (1) the frogs already had the parasites before you added them to your tank, or (2) something you put in your new aquarium introduced the parasites. Regardless of where the infection originated, the new aquarium would almost certainly now be contaminated. My statement was indicating that you would not want to put a treated frog back into an environment that is contaminated (i.e. your tank).

As for whether Coccidia is curable in darts, I am not certain that is well documented. Further, I have seen fecals run on animals previously diagnosed with Coccidia, and neither I nor the vet (a small animal vet specializing in reptiles and amphibia) running the fecals could find any sign of Coccidia.

Regarding your friend's deaths, yes, there is the chance that medicating even a healthy animal will lead to its death. Is there the possibility that the death your friend experienced was from the parasites? Sure. However, acurately dosing a medication by simply dusting fruit flies is impossible for the average hobbyist. Overdosing can occur, and is a real threat.

As for adding wild moss, etc., I don't recommend that for some of the reasons Rich states. However, I will admit that it is simply my own personal desire to be on the safe side. However, I also boil my substrate and soak my plants, rocks, and wood in a mild bleach solution (rinsed very well and soaked in RO water for days thereafter. Several people do use such things as sheet moss and wild moss with no apparent problems. I think Patty does this.

You will find people with widely varying opinions on this matter, and all successful in the hobby. That is why I think it is important that you know WHY someone does something before you decide for yourself how you will approach a particular problem. Ask around and get different opinions and decide for yourself.
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Purveyor of Trivialities and Fine Nonsense

hi, i may have been wrong that i saw that all frogs have worms at the dendrobates world site, i am sorry, but if i find it there in the future i will inform you. Thank you for clearing that up about me looking at that the wrong way!
I am wondering what ratio of water to bleach do you use on your plants, wood and rocks? what is ro water? thanks! -amanda

Amanda,
Here is a post (by my brother) that may give you some insite into Dart meds pertaining to a wormer called Panacur. There is info on other matters as well. It is long, but worth the read.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com

Hello everyone. My name is David Frye. I am a veterinarian in Michigan with a passion for dart frogs and their medical needs. I am opinionated, and can sometimes be short with people, but I love the frogs. We have a thriving collection of well over 300 dart frogs and successfully breed many species of thumbnails and rarer large frogs.

I figured I introduce myself by giving everyone a glimpse of some of my posts from other forums. This is not a polished posting, but I hope you will find it interesting and/or informative. The following statements were posted by myself in June on FrogNet. At the end of this posting, I also added a few quotes from Brian Monk, DVM who is the only other veterinarian I know of that posts on frog boards. Feel free to tell me what you think.

I am the veterinarian who claims well over 90% of the captive bred Dendrobatid fecal samples I run (and I have literally run thousands now.) have internal parasites. Mostly worms such as hooks and lung worms mentioned earlier. I do not consider bacteria a parasite in my findings. Coccidia is the next greatest offender - however many frogs with coccida seem to thrive, and then again it can kill a stressed frog and cause bloody feces. I occasionally find other protozoa, but it is the worm burden that is astounding. Please, please collect as much as possible fresh feces from one of your tanks, place it in a small airtight container (such as a film canister) with a little moist paper towel to maintain humidity and rush it to your local vet. Have him/her run a fecal float and let the cover slip sit for at least 15 minutes. If the solution he/she is using is decent, and the vet will allow you peek through his scope - I can almost guarantee you are in for a wild ride. Really fresh poop will have a decent number of worm eggs. If you wait a day or three you'll see the worm young hatch and move beneath the lens. These crawling worms can invade your frogs through nearly any body opening, and even more remarkable than that, they can burrow directly through the skin of your frogs desperately seeking an intestinal loop. Sometimes they end up in aberrant locations - brain-kidney-bladder-eye-heart-etc. This isn't really that great for the frog. The frogs can live like this for some time. the problem is that they a sh*t hundreds of infective worm eggs each day or so into a tiny space where they are constantly being bombarded with an ever increasing number of hungry little worms waiting to catch a ride into the next frog that happens by. How often do you all change the entire substrate of all of your vivaria. We know hookworms can live in damp soil for over 2years.
Coccidia can be even worse. Their is no proven cure right now, and we know it can live in a moist environment for over two years, just waiting for a host.
How many of you quarantined your frogs for at least 2 month and received 2 negative fecal samples before introducing your frogs into their beautiful naturalistic vivaria? Most of you introduce parasites into these enclosures that you will never be able to rid your tanks of. Not unless you scrap the entire furnishings and start with a freshly bleached bare tank. I don't mean to be offensive, but I think you will be shocked. TAKE YOUR SAMPLES TO A DECENT LOCAL VET!!! Have him give you the results and then honestly post them here. I have done many, many collector/breeders' fecal samples, and I have never lied. There are definitely people out there that can vouch that I gave them a negative result, when they truly believed that they had parasites. This usually turns out to be a bacterial overgrowth and is easily remedied.
In closing, I really try to learn as much as possible about all of the aspects of medical care for these wonderful animals. I appreciate any knowledgeable information. I do not make enough money from doing amphibian medicine to make it worth my while, or worth the headache, but I love doing it. Please, Please, Please - go to a decent vet and have him run fecals from every tank you have. Pay the vet the $10-20 per sample (it is well worth it to everyone - especially if you post your results.) And finally let everyone know. I'm sure many, many people don't want the parasite problem broadcasted on frognet, but you seem to want to ask the question.......... many of you know that you have numerous parasites. Can anyone tell me how a parasite benefits your collection?

I didn't mean to rant, but it is ridiculous to hear such scientifically minded people not run a simple scientific test on their pets. How many of you have dogs? Do you give Fluffy his monthly heartworm preventative or get the 6 month injection? Do you pick up a puppy and ignore the multitude of roundworms filling his intestinal tract? Most dogs dying of heartworm disease don't show any signs until they've been infected for about 2 years.

Just a tired man's thought.

Let me make this entirely clear. I do not wish everyone to treat every PDF in their collections weekly with anything. In fact, if we followed certain guidelines to eliminate dangerous parasites from our frogs (hookworms, lungworms, coccidia, etc) BEFORE we introduced them into a tank, there should be very little worry and nearly no reason to medicate for parasites - assuming you have fecals checked on occasion (I run my frogs fecals weekly to monthly. I'm a vet. I'd suggest others to run fecals yearly or every 6 months IN A TANK WHERE FROGS ADDED WERE KNOWN TO BE CLEAR OF PARASITES.)

The whole weekly treatment thing is used for frogs in tanks contaminated with worms. The owner doesn't want to scrap the tank, but wants to keep the parasite burden low. I started recommending monthly treatments, but this had problems. The worms can actually be cleared from a frog (negative fecal samples daily for one week after Panacur) but when I tested them again 1 month after treatment they were already shedding eggs again. This means that the frogs were being exposed to infective worm larva in their vivaria, the worms invaded the previously treated frog, made it to the GI tract, matured, and started laying eggs within that month. After further studies it seemed that most frog worms had a life cycle (from invasion of the frog to laying viable eggs) between 12 and 18 days. In a puppy or kitten this usually takes longer than 3-4 weeks so we try to deworm them at least twice at 3-4 week intervals (get rid of all the adults and juveniles with the first dose, and the ju
viniles
(too young to lay eggs) in the second deworming.)

So, now I had to use a little reasoning to come up with the idea that if the life cycle (reproductive life cycle) for frog worms appears to be much quicker than for mammals we should deworm in shorter intervals (shorter than the time it takes a frog to invade and start laying eggs) - hence I came up with 1 week. It's easy to remeber, and works incredibly well. Also - I still believe Panacur to be very safe. All of my breeding thumbnails have had Pancur treatments.

The main difference between deworming a frog verses deworming a dog is that most of us don't make our dogs live in a very small environment full of their own feces and parasites. Those who do will have parasite ridden dogs (unless they use a good monthly heartworm product (ProHeart counts because it is in the system constantly.) ) Notice the monthly thing again. Heartworm products are actually given monthly to assure protection against GI worms. If Heartworm meds were given every 40 days they would still be 100% effective against heartworm (because it takes longer than that for the microfilaria (baby heartworms) to reach the heart and take up residence. I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE TO GIVE THEIR DOGS HEARTWORM MEDICINE EVERY 40 DAYS!!!!!!!! It would work for heartworms, though.

One last thing (I have to say something controversial) - I have read that people believe giving dewormers is very stressful to the frogs (and even to the worms.) Someone mentioned that the worms were so upset that they started to burrow through the frog to get away from the medication. Please think about this statement. GI worms need to be in the GI tract to live normal wormy lives. They burrow INTO the GI tract normally (maybe these were the worms seen on necropsy.) The dewormers we use work by basically shutting down the worms nervous system and paralyzing them. If they were exposed to the drug 1) they'd probably be too paralyzed to start digging an escape tunnel, and 2) THEY ARE NOT REASONING CREATURES. The worms didn't feel the Panacur coming and say," Hey guys we gotta get out of here. Lets do something entirely new and burrow OUT of our beloved homeland."

As for being stressful to the frog, I've never experienced this. The dewormer is either dusted on the feeder insects or applied by a dropper to the frog's back. None of mine seem to mind at all.

Let me know what you think,
David

Take a few of your darts and place them individually in a brand new "shoe box" set up with a wet paper towel bottom with fake or real plants for cover. Feed them normally and collect all the feces 3 or 4 days later. Take this sample to a good veterinarian. Wait for the results.
If and when you find dozens of worm eggs/ squirming worms in the samples (and I am in no way trying to say that your collection definitely has parasites or is any way more contaminated than any other,) will you be able to agree that the worms came from the frogs? They wont come from the paper towels. They wont come from plastic fake leaves (even though I prefer to use real plants.)
Try this out on 10 or so of your frogs. Pick the healthiest looking ones.
Please, do not think that I am in any way trying to protect my livelihood here. I don't make enough money doing medicine for frogs to make it worth my time. I have had my busiest two weeks ever at my hospital these last two weeks. It takes me about 1/2 hour and 2 bucks worth of material to talk to the frog owner, set up the, fecal, read the fecal, record the results, photograph the parasites (but my wife dropped my KoolPix 995 and I replaced it with a KoolPix 5400 and the microscope adapter is still on order,) explain the results to the owner, explain my recommendations, mix/weigh/package the meds, give my receptionist the directions to print and have the whole thing boxed up and sent to the owner's door. This is not how I want to make money. This is not a money making venture. I do medicine for frogs for the same reason most of you keep frogs - not for the money, but because we are passionate about it. I have the ability to treat these amazing creatures – therefore I feel it is an obligation.

I used to advertise that I would charge $1 per minute for medical consultation (and trust me I can make a lot more than that doing my routine small animal/exotic practice.) I am sure I have talked to a lot of people on this board who called me up asking advice. Can anyone out there say that I charged them for my time? Ever?

I am truly glad that you don't think you have problems with parasites. Your collection is obviously doing very well. You and Todd are very respected and have done great things for the hobby. Do you have any dogs or cats? Would you allow them to have hookworm, whipworm, roundworm, or heartworm infections without treating them just because you couldn't see the problem? Most animals with worms show no outward signs. You probably all know someone who was shocked to find out their dog was infested with heartworms. Anyone?

I am a vet. Fighting infection and parasitism and disease is what I do. It is part of who I am. I'm not trying to convert people or scare you into doing anything. I urge everyone to go to their vet (please not me) with samples collected as I mentioned above. Be honest with the rest of us. Let's find out what is in our frogs. Ask your vet to let you look through the microscope using the 10x and 40 x objectives (100 & 400 times magnification total with eyepiece.)

Thanks for your time.

I like Ed's suggestions much better than my own earlier suggestions, but I doubt many people will be able to accomplish this (or are willing to - to be exact.) I do, however, recommend that everyone try Ed's method (with just a few changes that I will mention later.) This was the original reason I mentioned fake plants for cover. I use small clean clippings of pothos (never ever taken from a vivarium - I have pots of hanging pothos just for this purpose) which I rinse very well multiple times. They certainly could still carry non-pathogenic nematodes, but I can not think of how they could introduce amphibian lungworms or hookworms into the quarantine environment (and even if they did - the worms need to enter the frog, take up residence, and start laying eggs - which takes a good deal more than 3 days - for these eggs to be shed into feces.)
I do not believe that taking the first feces a frog sheds into it's quarantine tank is representative of it's parasite load for 2 reasons. Firstly, parasites are shed sporadically - when a frog, dog, cat, etc has internal parasites, you will not always find the eggs of those parasites in each and every BB sized sample of feces. Secondly, parasite shedding dramatically increases when the frog is stressed. So if you were only to collect one tiny sample, you should move the frog to a new "sterile-ish" environment every day for 3-5 days and take a sample from one of these later days. This will much increase the odds of getting one tiny pile of s*&^ containing an accurate account of the parasites within the frog. I really like to look at more than one turd at a time.
Many times hobbyists send me samples of only the frogs they are concerned about. These usually, but not always contain parasites. Many breeders and advanced hobbyists have sent me samples from every single group in their collections (EVEN THE ONES THEY WERE NOT AT ALL CONCERNED ABOUT,) the prevalence of parasites are nearly identical. Once again, I'm sure there are some of my clients out there that were surprised (and delighted) when I gave them negative fecal results, and conversely I have clients out there that were disappointed when I found huge loads or potentially devastating parasites in their "healthiest" of frogs.
I don't name names, and I don't tell people who has what, but there are many frog breeders that have actually come to my hospital and watched me perform samples on the feces their frogs shed in brand new deli cups with new paper towels and no other containments (such as plants or soil) on the drive over to my hospital (these were brand-new short transport containers.) Many of these samples had 2 or 3 types of worm eggs in them and some had protozoan parasites (yes, I know that not all protozoans are parasitic - these were.) The owners got to sit there, watch me set the sample up, and look at their frogs' poop under my beautiful Olympus microscope. I pointed out the eggs and the differences of each type. I showed them what mites and mite eggs look like (and not to confuse them with parasites.) I got to show a couple of people amoebas, and those unlucky enough to have coccidia received a glimpse at this evil little bastard.
I know these breeders have a good reason not to post on this board what they saw. Think about it. I really don't get a whole lot of resistance in this hobby, and I know most people have just heard about me recently, but the resistance I get is usually about what medicines I recommend and how to use them. I understand. These are newish protocols and don't have years of field study on PDFs to prove their safety. (Who has run years of medical research on medicines given to PDFs?) People have mentioned the nicest newest amphibian medical book many times on this and other forums. I take most of my dosages and recommendations from there. I have a few more amphibian formularies. I try my best, have had amazing results, and use all the meds on my own frogs. I am successfully breeding many species of frogs right now that have gotten Panacur nearly weekly for many months at a time. Many of these species are considered difficult to work with and/or breed) I work with a breeder that is much more bold than myself, and he doubles, triples, and sometimes 20 times the dose of my recommendations. I do not endorse this, but I am lucky enough to be able monitor his collection and see if any of the drugs have caused any noticeable problems. I necropsy his frogs for free, and have done so for about 1.5 years. The frogs necropsied before he started using meds had much, much more liver and kidney damage than any I have seen in the last 8 months.
My next bit of information is not for the squeamish. Next week, call around and find a vet willing to do this. Next time one of your frog dies, call the vet immediately and rush the body to him/her. Have the vet open the abdomen, take a look at the kidneys and liver, and remove the entire GI tract. Now, have the vet use the entire gut contents to set up a fecal float and wait for the results. This sidesteps all of the hesitancy about whether or not the worms and eggs came from the frog or not. If the vet is willing and capable, have him/her set up histopath slides of the heart, heart blood, liver, kidney, reproductive organs, bladder, and lungs. The brain is quite tricky, and takes some practice. Have the vet look for bacterial, parasites, and pathology. THE FROG HAS TO BE VERY FRESH TO GET GOOD HISTOPATH RESULTS!!!! I can't stress enough, that I will not waste my time or my clients' money on rotten frogs, and your vet will not take kindly to feeling obligated to work on a putrid corpse.
Just some more of my opinions. Let me know what you all think. I respect the level of intelligence that subjects are handled with on this forum.

My main point that I keep stressing is that we should just make certain that our frogs don't carry parasites when we introduce them into our vivaria. This is my bottom line. Keep all new animals in quarantine until you are certain they are not contaminated with parasites. Treat all parasites in these quarantined animals until they test negative for at least 2 consecutive fecal exams, and then you can add them to an uncontaminated environment without the concern of prolonged antiparasitic treatments.
The problem is that very few hobbyists have done this, and almost all of the beautiful, large, and expensive (monetarily and emotionally) vivaria that hobbyists have set up, have had contaminated frogs added to them from the start. I'd much rather have my clients treat their collection for 3-5 weeks, obtain 2 negative fecals, and move to all new and clean vivaria, BUT many of my clients (if not all) are unwilling to completely destroy the vivaria they have worked so hard to create.
The drug resistance issue is definitely a possibility, but what are your main concerns? Christina had a good point (if the cheapest dewormer is very safe, we would like it to work on our animals when they seriously need it.) Well, there are already worms out there resistant to Panacur.
Yes, bacteria (which has a life cycle measured in minutes) will constantly evolve and gain resistance to new antibiotics. Worms take weeks to reproduce. If you deworm every week for some time, you should be able to destroy all the worms not already resistant to the drug. It is not as if giving the worms a dewormer will speed up the reproductive cycle so dramatically that we will create super-worms able to reproduce in a tenth the time of normal worms.
Also, I ask again - how can you be worried about creating panacur-resistant PDF parasites to the point of not treating them at all? What exactly is the main concern? The worms can be destroyed with the next drug (or the second to next) up the line of ever increasing dewormers if a major threat occurs.
Bacteria become resistant so quickly it is amazing, but Penicillin and Amoxicillin are still extremely effective drugs for MANY MANY bacterial infections and are widely used successfully throughout the world.
There are extremists that would like antibiotic use completely stopped in all non-human animals so that the resistance will slow down. Does this sound reasonable to anyone? Trust me when I say it is humans carrying most of the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria out there. Should we stop doing research, creating new meds, and using medicine, and just let god sort things out?

In general, if a worm is able to reproduce within a host, it is considered a parasite (hence the recommendation to look at the entire GI contents.) Protozoan, etc are much trickier. Remember that the number of protozoan and worms on this planet far outnumber the number of vertebrates. Far, far outnumber them.

Please, anyone considering sending me a necropsy in the future, I would like to suggest using pathologists instead. I would be most interested in getting copies of the reports, and would be willing contribute to the cost of this. I can't say how many people will take me up on this, so I can't guarantee I can do it forever, but for the first 100 reports sent to me from complete histopaths on PDFs from Mike Garner, I will contribute $5 for the cost of the tests. Thanks a lot. I am extremely excited to have another source of data input.

David M. Frye, DVM
Milan Area Animal Hospital
517 West Main Street
Milan, MI 48160
fax (734) 439-0556

Many parasites can infect multiple hosts (cat,dog, people, etc) and many need intermediate hosts such as insects, snails, crayfish etc before they can wind up in their definitive host. Tapeworms are a good example.

You can add a clean lid or petri dish to the big spacious vivarium and monitor it for fecal deposits. If it is a clean dish, replaced often, and you know the pile of sh*t on it wasn't there 2 or 3 hours ago, you can be certain it is a nice fresh sample, eh? You don't have to wrangle frogs.

From Brian Monk, DVM
"Hi y'all,

Fenbendazole, when used at safe dosages, dose NOT cause bone marrow
suppression. It is a well-known and well-used drug, with no known side-effects as
serious as this at proper dosage levels. It is also very effective against a
broad range of nematodes, other "worm" parasites, and a variety of protozoa. "

and

"Unfortunately (for the frogs, I mean), yes David's numbers are validated by
my own. About 90% of the fresh, well-handled fecals I see contain what I
consider parasite eggs. 100% contain protozoa of various sorts, but whether these
are parasitic or commensal, and potentially harmful and at what levels, is a
much more subtle topic. ALL (100%) of the frogs that I have sent for
histopathology have had some evidence of parasitism.

rich, i just want to clear some things up that i still am in question about. You had said that you use peat brick, in all 70 of your frog tanks. And have had no problem with infestation of nasties. Do you mean nasties being worms, or something else?
and in the post on jan 8 2005, with the info your brother had wrote... he said that "well over 90% of the frog fecal samples he has run have had internal parasites. And he said that the problem is that the frogs [bleep] hundred of infective worm eggs out each day, into a tiny space where they are constantly bombarded with an ever increasing number of hungry little worms waiting to catch a ride into the next frog that happens by."
Please don't think i'm trying to be a wise ass. I can't seem to add 2 2.
How do you and your bro successfully take care of so many tanks?
I have a layer of terra-lite clay pellets, then screen, substrate, moss. I remove any droppings i see, as i see them. And i use water from a jug, and or a spray bottle (one of those you pump up then spray) to shower down the tanks i have every week. But one problem i have is that water builds up quickly,a few of my tanks are fish tanks, with tempered glass, i couldn't do a self draining type, with the hole near the bottom of the tank and tubng that runs into a jar you can easily dump out. so i had to rig up this drainage system. I think its a faucett water supply hook up or something, made of a hard plastic, from home depot. I cut it to size, I placed that as a permanent fixture cutting the right size hole through the screen, down through the terra-lite pellets, to the very bottom of the tank. ANd (while at home depot i found the plastic tubing that perfectly fits into the top of the permanant fixture when i want to drain excess water from the bottom of the tank. And then i use the rubber squeeze part of a turkey baster to get the water flowing, so i can dispose of it.
But it seems like alot of successful froggers don't rinse the tank like i do. And do you and your bro remove fecal droppings from yours?
So is this right, most frogs carry worms/parasites, but most can be cured, through use of medications?- thanks for your input-amanda

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Edited on January 11, 2005 at 16:08:22 by phwyvern.

Hi Amanda,
The quick and easy answer is this; quarantine.
If your new frogs are quarantined, found to have nematodes, and then treated for the worms before, (this is key) they are placed into your established viv, you should have little problems.
You can get rid of nematodes in an infested tank , it just takes more work and meds.
To answer your peat question. I have found nothing foriegn (excepting the brick itself) that has come in with our peat brick. Nothing.

Rich

www.fryebrothersfrogs.com