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Oh no, kidney problems (I think)

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 04:32 AM

About two months ago (some of you might remember) I took my leo to the vet for an x-ray, to check for possible impaction. Well the vet new nothing about leos so that did me a whole lot of no good. The x-ray did turn up a small white substance right in the middle of her body and a little to the side (about 1/4 the size of her eye). The vet did not emaphsize on this, so I really didn't worry about it much. However, that night I brought her home, fed her some small mealworms, made sure she drank some water, and watched her poop. I narrowed out impaction with this.

Tonight as I was doing a tank re-do I checked out her belly. She has a large black area going across the middle of her belly, then a little black going down to form almost an "I" pattern, just with a heavy top of the letter. On one side of this "I" she has a large white spot, possibly the same one from before (that you could not see without the x-ray), but about four times the size of her eye now.

Her eating has decreased, but I just thought it was due to the cold weather. I haven't seen her eat since December 23rd. I last checked her belly about a month ago. There was just a small amount of black, I though it was pretty normal looking. She has also seemed a little bloated (just the feel of her), but it's been that way for a long time. After asking the vet about it, asking people here about it, and checking out pictures of other leos, I just thought it might be her body type.

They always have water (that I see her drink from) and a humid hide. I also dust their food less often than I used to. I am using up a container of T-rex leopard gecko dust that recommends dusting every day. I have been planning on upgrading to a better quality dust. They also have a dish of calcium (she sometimes uses) and a uv light on part of the day.

The nearest herp vet is 2 hours away, right now it is -17, going down to -22 with flurries on the weekend. I don't know what to do. I believe my first gecko died largly in part to the inexperience of the vets in this stupid city, claiming they know about herps when I have to explain what impaction is to them. The last vet I saw didn't even know what leopard geckos eat. He even asked me if I ever fed fruits and veggies to them.

Oh please help, I really don't know what to do. The weather is horrible, is it worth the risk? I have pictures that I will post tomorow. Is their a way to correct this on my own? I know I hate people that say this too, but I am only thinking about the safety of my gecko (I am in no way being lazy or cheap).

Lisa
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0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

Replies (18)

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 05:17 AM

and also appologize to you. I am kicking myself big time because after seeing the vet two months ago you suggested that it might be a kidey problem. I mostly brushed what you said off, at this point the kidney (possibly) was not enlarged and there wasn't much black area. I have seen a small amount of black area in all of my geckos and many other geckos, so I considered it normal looking. However, it is not normal looking anymore.

I just did a search and you said the kidneys are located just about the pelivs. Where exactly is the pelive in a leo? What I am looking at is about one inch (maybe a little more) above the anus.

Thanks for your help,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 05:37 AM

of a leo with a normal dark spot in the same area as the black in my gecko, I think (judging by what other said) it might actually be the liver, not the kidneys. It starts higher up that where I think the kidneys are. The very middle of the "I" shape I was talking about begins in the very middle of her body.

I am so confused. Does anyone have a picture of the inner anatomy of a leo?

Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

geckogrl6 Jan 06, 2005 11:59 AM

Lisa, that does not sound like a kidney problem. Enlarged kidneys would be two big white balls, one on each side, just in front of the hips. I will try to get pictures of some undersides for you (I have a good camera), but not such cooperative geckoes. It does sound more like a liver issue. Whats the content info for the dust you are using? I AM NOT A VET! I just have some science background and a very good vet (such a blessing!!!), but liver problems would most likely by caused by something she ate. ANY possibility of tox exposure? Wild bugs, sprays in the house, etc.? It may also be an overdose of something. All my gex have a Y shape in black underneath. Most of my females aredeveloping eggs, but I will try to get good pics for you. Is she losing weight? How old now? etc. Feel free to IM or email me
-----

1.0 Blizzard Bill
1.0 Hypo stripe 100% het Rainwater from JL (BJ)
1.0 HypoTang from Crested (Apricot)
1.0 Tremper Albino Hypo (Cloud)
0.3 Normal/Hi-Yellow Leopard gecko (Beatrice, Goldie (now w/SD), Freckles, Pepper)
0.1 SHCT Leopard Gecko (Brite)
0.1 Tangy Mutt Leopard Gecko (Rainbow)
0.0.2 Corn Snakes (MIA)
RIP Peaches, Ghost

aoudakav Jan 06, 2005 12:48 PM

Does this help any?

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/13090573/

I just let her crawl on the scanner sometimes. She likes it once the glass has warmed up a bit.

aoudakav Jan 06, 2005 12:50 PM

Oops, forgot to add - if you click the picture, it'll enlarge somewhat.

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 02:39 PM

Thank you that does help.

On my gecko the black area actually looks the same, just much darker and a little thicker on top (bottom in your picture). Where it forms alomst a C shape on the left side of this gecko is where the white area is. My description in the above post is from looking at the gecko from the opposite side. Although I didn't feel it, it may be sticking out a little (very little) on my gecko.

Unfortunately I wont be able to get these picture up. My boyfriend can't drive here because of the highway, and he has the connecter.

Thanks again,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 02:31 PM

It may be the cricket dust. I spoke to a herp nutitionalist a while back and he said that one of the levels of vitamins was double what it should be (I believe it was D3). He also recommened switching every feeding between the dust and straight calcium. Instead of doing that I just put a dish of straight calcium in their tank. Here is a link to the dust ingredients http://www.t-rexproducts.com/Dynamic/default.htm. It doesn't say this though,20,000IU/Kilo Vit A, 4,000IU/Kilo Vit D3 min. I think it was the Vit A that the nutritionalist was concerned about, although it might have been the D3. In anycase one of them is double what it should be.

I can't think of anything toxic she might have ate, her tank mate doesn't have any problems. She is currently 9 months old. You are so lucky to have a good vet, really, it can be the worst thing in the world without one. I actually know of a very good herp vet, that is who I would take the two hours drive to see. Unfortunately the highway is now closed so there is no chance of that untill it opens again. Things just keep getting worse.

Thanks for your info,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

StinaUIUC Jan 06, 2005 03:04 PM

It's the D3 that is double. I don't think that the D3 would cause liver problems though... I have been using this dust for the better part of a year and have had no issues. I would not give the geckos the calcium dish...according to the formulator of the dust it can imbalance things to add the extra calcium. I have a baby leo that hatched the 16 of November that has had his food dusted with the t-rex icb dust at every feeding (it is the only supplement used...other than the crickets/mealies getting flukers gutload) and he is thriving. I only have one gecko that is getting extra calcium and it is because she came to me deficient. I'm fairly sure there are some reputable well-known breeders that use the dust as well...but I can't remember who and I don't know what their results were.
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Christina


Ask about pet portraits!

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

StinaUIUC Jan 06, 2005 03:09 PM

Oh I meant to add...if you look at my website you can see a photo of the baby that was taken about a week ago. It should give you a good idea of his condition
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-Christina

geckogrl6 Jan 06, 2005 03:29 PM

perhaps you could call the vet and get his/her input over the phone as far as the dust and nutrition info? If they really are a good herp vet, she should hear your concerns and let you know what her opinion is. I thought od's of D3 did cause enlarged livers? maybe im wrong. It may be the vit A, esp. if you are gutloading w/ foods high in beta carotene (a vit A precursor, much safer). Did you say she was eating nad not losing weight? If that is the case, I would keep her extra hydrated to help flush the system if it is an od of some sort, maybe cut back on the vit/mineral supps and do more straight calc? it may clear up on its own if you caught it early. Id re-evaluate in a week or so or if she gets real skinny, then take her in. hopefully the weather will warm up!
-----

1.0 Blizzard Bill
1.0 Hypo stripe 100% het Rainwater from JL (BJ)
1.0 HypoTang from Crested (Apricot)
1.0 Tremper Albino Hypo (Cloud)
0.3 Normal/Hi-Yellow Leopard gecko (Beatrice, Goldie (now w/SD), Freckles, Pepper)
0.1 SHCT Leopard Gecko (Brite)
0.1 Tangy Mutt Leopard Gecko (Rainbow)
0.0.2 Corn Snakes (MIA)
RIP Peaches, Ghost

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 05:47 PM

She hasn't lost much weight at all. Maybe at the most 2-3 grams in her tail over the past few months, since she has slowed her eating habits. I believe the beta carrotine in the cricket dust was a concern of the herp nutritionalists as well. But her just mentioned that there were no studies to date that confirm any need for it in a leos dust. It was such a long time ago though, often my memory can be pretty bad. Unfortunately, I don't think I caught it early, I think it started months ago. I wish I had been more worried about her then, but she for the most part seemed pretty normal. I also took her to that horrible vet who didn't seem concerned at all.

Thanks once again for your help,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

StinaUIUC Jan 06, 2005 07:31 PM

hehe...you made me want to look up the toxicity stuff...

Ok, here's what D3 toxicity does...
"The principal direct toxic effects of vitamin D are excessive absorption of calcium from the intestine and resorption of calcium from bone. This results in deposition of calcium and phosphorus in soft tissues all over the body, with particular damage to the heart, blood vessels and kidneys. This a fairly reliable method for inducing high blood pressure in model animals (such as dogs). This is presumably renal hypertension caused by calcification of the renal arteries. Extreme toxicities caused by the calcinogenic plants results in calcium deposition in and damage to lungs, tendons, ligaments with attendent lameness." From http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/courses/as625/625vitd.html

This is refering to beta carotene...
"There is no evidence of hypervitaminosis A in those consuming high doses (up to 180 mg/d of beta-carotene)." From http://www.gettingwell.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/bet_0032.shtml.

Both of those things are refering to mammals or people...but the effects should be the same for reptiles. One thing I did see is that hypervitaminosis A CAN cause liver problems...but that would have to be from the actual intake of too much vitamin A...not from beta carotene.

Hope this is somewhat helpful!
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-Christina

geckogrl6 Jan 06, 2005 09:27 PM

you may have a problem with Vit A. someone told me to gutload like crazy with fruits and veggies high in beta carotene, and the gecko will convert it only to as much A as they need,. they CANNOT OD on beta carotine, but can on A. Thats what was told to me. stop with that dust, gutload with yellow/orange fruits/veggies. (I use squash, carrots, tomatoes) and again, flush her out w/ xtra fluid. I still say this can wait until spring unless she starts going downhill faster.
-----

1.0 Blizzard Bill
1.0 Hypo stripe 100% het Rainwater from JL (BJ)
1.0 HypoTang from Crested (Apricot)
1.0 Tremper Albino Hypo (Cloud)
0.3 Normal/Hi-Yellow Leopard gecko (Beatrice, Goldie (now w/SD), Freckles, Pepper)
0.1 SHCT Leopard Gecko (Brite)
0.1 Tangy Mutt Leopard Gecko (Rainbow)
0.0.2 Corn Snakes (MIA)
RIP Peaches, Ghost

lisa_cristin Jan 06, 2005 11:00 PM

What did you mean by this "I still say this can wait until spring unless she starts going downhill faster". If you meant what it sounds like you meant, that is such a relief off my back. I've been in a panic for 24 hours, worried stiff that I can't get her to a vet for a while.
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0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

StinaUIUC Jan 06, 2005 11:22 PM

"Ingredients:
This is a quick breakdown of the ingredients used in the Superfoods. Dried Banana Powder: From the human food ingredients industry. This is fresh dried and powdered Banana. It us used in the foods as a primary attractant. The gecko diets have as much banana as real banana’s. Huh? You say.. Fresh Banana’s are about 85 % water, which leaves 15% dried banana. So if you take 15 grams of Banana and mix it with 85 grams of water, you will have something that is the equivalent of pureed banana. So if we are making a dry formula which contains 15% banana powder, it has as much banana flavor as fresh banana does. This is one of the keys that make the foods so palatable to the geckos. Dried Honey Powder: From the human food ingredients industry. The sweet taste of honey is irresistible to such nectar loving geckos as Rhacodactylus and Phelsuma. It is the second key ingredient to flavoring the foods and making them palatable to geckos. Honey is a natural food for many reptiles, and provides an excellent source of carbohydrates. Hempseed Flour and Meal : : From the human food ingredients industry. Hempseed meal provides both high quality protein, and fat. The amino acid profile of hempseed is one of the highest quality in the plant kingdom . The hempseed is used in the diets as the primary source of fat. Hempseed contains the highest ratio of EFA’s (essential fatty acids) available (over 80%) and the best ratio of omega 3, omega 6, and omega 9 (GLA) It surpasses even Flax seed when it comes to the balance and percentage of EFA’s. Bee Pollen: : From the human food ingredients industry Bee pollen is one of natures most complete foods. Containing Protein, Fat, Minerals, Trace Minerals, and Vitamins. It is also a natural food for all kinds of omnivorous, and herbivorous reptiles. Fig Powder: : From the human food ingredients industry Fig is another natural attractant for Reptiles, but in our foods, its primary job is to provide a good balanced source of soluble and insoluble fiber. Fiber is often overlooked in many diets, but it is a very important ingredient. Fiber helps clean the gut through friction against the intestinal wall.It can help flush internal parasites from the gut. It aids in the production of a firmer, drier stool. ( a good thing for keepers) Whey Protein Isolate. (replaces calcium caseinate in early diets) Whey Protein Isolate is a processed (we use cold processed whey Isolate) byproduct of the cheese industry. It is commonly referred to as the most bio available source of protein available on the planed for humans, and is the Protein of choice for body builders and athletes alike. It surpasses egg protein in bio availability. It is also the most expensive source of isolated protein available. We use an isolated source of protein in our feeds because we just don’t have “room” to get the levels of protein in our feeds with the inclusion levels we want of all the other ingredients. Whey Isolate is about 94% protein, so we can use it in small amounts to bump the protein level in a particular diet. We have studied growth rates using many sources of protein, and whey is the winner hands down. Brewers Yeast: Brewers Yeast, like Bee Pollen, is another of natures “Super Foods” it provides an excellent source of protein, and the most concentrated source of the B complex vitamins in their natural forms available. Wheat Germ: Wheat Germ is an excellent source of Tocopherols (Vitamin E) and provides a great source of other vitamins and minerals. The product we use has been defatted for increased shelf life. Calcium Carbonate: The primary source of Calcium for the foods. Dicalcium Phosphate. Primary source of Phosphorous for foods. Spirulina Algae: Spirulina is another of natures “superfoods” It contains an excellent balance of vitamins, minerals, amino acids and trace elements. We use it primarily for its high levels of Beta-Carotene. (the highest natural source) Beta Carotene is transformed by the body into Vitamin A, and it is converted on an “as needed” basis. This helps avoid problems associated with excess preformed vitamin A in diets. RoseHips Powder: One of natures highest sources of natural Vitamin C, It contains the full spectrum of vitamin C, unlike synthetic Vitamin C which is only Ascorbic Acid. Kelp Meal: Kelp is included to provide a natural ( but nearly trace amount) source of Iodine. It also happens to be one of the highest source of chelated minerals and trace elements. Haemotococcus Algae: Is included because it is the highest natural source of Astaxanthan on the planet. This part of the Carotene complex, is responsible for the red pigmentation in shellfish It is what turns a lobster red when you cook it It is what makes a Flamingo Pink, It is what makes Salmon meat pink. It is natures source of red pigment, and it is rarely found in commercial diets. Marigold Extract: Is one of natures highest sources of yellow pigment. It is used for example to color the yolks of chickens in commercial farms that would otherwise not have the color found in free range birds. It is also the one of the greatest sources of the carotenoid lutein, a key ingredient necessary for healthy vision. Rosemary Extract: Known for its anti oxidant, anti bacterial, and anti fungal properties, is included to increase shelf life and freshness of the foods. Yucca Extract is used as a digestive aid and to reduce the odor of feces. Natural Tochopherols: these are used as a natural anti oxidant to increase shelf life and freshness of product. We use no synthetic chemicals in our feeds (most others do) Probiotics: We use a special blend of bacteria to aid in the digestion process by providing live bacteria to help break down food and provide digestive enzymes. Vitamin Premix: We include a custom blend of Vitamins to insure and balance the natural ones provided in the ingredients. Of most importance, are Vitamin A, and Vitamin D-3. Vitamin A is available in two forms. Preformed vitamin A in nature is only found in animals, not plants. It is stored primarily in the liver. It is also available in a synthetic version ( Vitamin A Acetatate, or Retinol ) Vitamin A can also be synthesized by most organisms from Beta Carotene. The exception is true carnivores like cats, who can only utilize preformed Vitamin A because they have evolved to not use plant material in their diet and get all they need from the animals they feed on. As far as Herps go…. We don’t really know if they all, or some, have the ability to convert Beta Carotene to Vitamin A. It would be logical, that they can, and most research to date supports this theory. Insects contain very little Preformed Vitamin A, and low levels of Beta Cerotene (from plant material in the gut) Many plants contain high levels of Beta Carotene. It would be logical to assume that omnivorous herps are able to convert Beta Carotene. It would also be logical to assume that purely insectivorous herps with very little availability of either source, have evolved to thrive on relatively low levels. Most bird diets and supplements have inclusion rates of Preformed Vitamin A (It is usually measured in its relation to Vitamin D-3) of 10 parts A to 1 Part D-3. These diets and supplements primarily use Preformed A rather than Beta Carotene because of cost, and it seems to work just fine for birds. Herps on the other hand have shown a history of being susceptible to high levels and have shown toxicity related symptoms. Our approach in the diets is to use a low level of Preformed A just in case there is a synthesis issue with some species, (4 to 1 ratio), and an issue with adaptation to low levels where 10 to one could be too much.We provide lots of Beta Carotene (from Spirulina) that can be converted at will to A (in theory) Until further research is done, I believe this is the best way to make sure that a good source of A is available to the animals."

I am NOT trying to say that vitamin A is not the problem...I just thought it might be good to have this out there.
-----
-Christina

StinaUIUC Jan 06, 2005 11:31 PM

The symptoms of vitamin A overdose are fatty liver (hepatomegally), dry skin, nausea,vomiting, fatigue, weakness, headaches, and anorexia. Fatty liver disease is not necessarily caused by it though. I would NOT wait until spring to deal with the problem if it is indeed a problem...if you're concerned you should take her to a vet. I wouldn't stress over not being able to get there immediately though.
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-Christina

lisa_cristin Jan 07, 2005 01:15 AM

Do you know the other causes of fatty liver disease? I was actually planning a vet appointment for her before I noticed her belly. I will take her in probably two weekends if it warms up then, it's going to be cold next weekend as well.
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0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
1.0 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Albino Pacman Frog
1.0 Lovebird (Tony)
1.0 Elkhound Cross (Otto)
0.1 Malamute Cross (Paris)
6.0 Bettas

StinaUIUC Jan 10, 2005 09:20 PM

No sorry...I don't know the causes...and sorry it took me so long to reply, I forgot I was posting on this site...lol
-----
-Christina

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