Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What do you all think about field collecting? Might be a strange question to ask in this forum but I ask because I have an associate that is dead set agenst it and I agree with it. If I am looking for a particular species for my research and go out with him into the field just the thought of collecting something gets him very irritated, So much that I don’t even invite him to go out when I do any field work anymore. Dose anyone know someone like this? I tried using pure logic to get through to him but he is set in his ways. In his mind field collecting mixed with the recent flooding so on and so forth is herp biggest threat. In my book human encroachment and loss of habitat is there biggest threat. So anyway what do you think?
My reptile collection and research

entomologists often euthanize their collections!

I would have to agree with you on loss of habitat being more of a concern, at least here. Iv'e been into field herping since I was a kid, and I've only seen about 4 other people out herping. I also think that if you take anything from the wild, you should have intentions of breeding, or for study. I think you should release some offspring back into the wild, only if it is NATIVE to where you collected the parents, and is legal to do so.
Wayne

In my opinion, field collecting is ok, if done at a certain limit and the specimens taken will have something to do with science. A few animals taken can hurt a population, where in another population it wouldn't hurt anything. Make your decisions wisely, I have no problems with field collecting, but I do know people that refuse to do so. Like I said, if it has something to do with science, or you are contributing to science or the herp world, then in my opinion it is alright.
Michael
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

just kidding.....
I think as long as you aren't "harvesting" for selling, or using your finds as food for other captive herps we won't have any real impact. If you are only collecting a specimen or two for your own collection I can't see that as a problem.
So many people freak out so bad about field collecting!
I flip a million rocks a season and may ....MAY, keep 1-2 snakes, and perhaps a lizard or two. 99% of these invariably get returned to the spot that they were taken from.

just my 0.02

...regulated. There are a few states (TX, NV, etc) which allow commercial collecting but have generous bag limits and in some cases, reporting requirements. I have no problem (in general) with personal collecting, or even some commercial collecting. Personally, I wish the permitting process was simpler (a cheaper herp license, separate from a hunting license so no hunter education required) and reporting was mandatory for all species, in order to determine take rates and impacts on populations.

The one good thing CA does is to make herp collection fall under the auspices of a fishing license. Therefore, hunter education is not required. On the other hand, their remaining herp regulations are terrible--low bag limits (like ONE for a zonata), no breeding of natives (in general--you have to give away any offspring which put you over the bag limit, so it discourages breeding) with the exception of a few species (e.g. kings, rosy boas), can't sell any (except the kings and rosies, maybe a few others--I'm typing from memory). However, if one catches herps in order to eat them, or to feed them to other animals, you're OK as far as bag limits--in other words, as long as I don't have more than 2 at any one time (for most species), I can catch 100 a year, and EAT them or feed them off. The use of native herps as feeders is the reason some CA lizards have higher bag limits (Uta, Sceloporus, etc).

I also think the very fact that some species are heavily regulated/off limits is the reason people poach them. Make the laws more common-sense, allow captive breeding, and demand for wild-caught should decrease.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

While I am uneducated on all the laws of the state of California I can say that the sate dose allow captive propagation of wild caught individuals. If memory serves me it’s a $45 fee for a permit but on that same note you are forbidden to release them back to the wild. I personally think it should be fine to release captive born individuals. I hear they can contract and send deceases such as those from domesticated cats. I find this excuse unacceptable because if you stand in my office and look out into the land across the street you will count at least 10 cats that were set free by those bumb people around the block. In my house, Office, Lab I have no nor have I had any nor do I plan to ever have any cats so that is why the excuse of contracting a disease from something like this is unacceptable to me. I have a Parakeet at home in my bedroom and a few tippler pigeons outside in a loft the rest of my pet collection is herps. Witch have be collected, released and recollected with no known ill affects.
My reptile collection and research

If you don't think that releasing diseases into the wild is a real possibility, consider this

"While loss and degradation of habitat is a leading threat to the continued existence of the tortoise, of particular concern is the recent appearance of a highly infectious and usually fatal upper respiratory tract disease, which was apparently introduced through the release of captive tortoises. The outbreak of this disease has caused the death of thousands of wild tortoises in the Mojave desert during the last few years."
From: reference

Also consider the case of trout fugus being transmitted to toads:
stocked fish, toad fungus reference

All the best,

Mike
my herp photos

>>While I am uneducated on all the laws of the state of California I can say that the sate dose allow captive propagation of wild caught individuals.

Well, they couldn't legally stop you from breeding, but you can't sell the babies of most species, except for kings, gophers, and rosies, due to the way the herpers at the time the laws were written lobbied for them. The way I understand it, the laws were designed in the 70s, when those three species were among the relatively few easily maintained in captivity. I don't think the original framers of the legislation could've foreseen the explosion in husbandry information as well as interest in keeping herps.

www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1502.pdf is the PDF file with the captive herp propagation rules.

For other reptile species, you must transfer all the offspring which would put you over the possession limit, and the person receiving the animals cannot go over the limit as a result either. That means that if you're a CA resident, and someone GIVES you 3 captive-bred banded geckos, you could be cited, even if you've never field-collected in your life.

Also notice the limit of TWENTY FIVE (in the aggregate) for the following species: western fence lizards, sagebrush lizards, side-blotched lizards, western skinks, and desert night lizards. This also was a concession to herp keepers of the time who were into the various saurophagous snakes. So, you can catch 25 of those lizards PER DAY and feed them to your snakes, then go out the very next day and catch 25 more--but you couldn't breed them to reduce your collecting pressure on local populations (well, unless you fed off the hatchlings before they grew into more useful weights).

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm not a CA resident, but I'm very interested in working with herpers in all states to revise herp statutes to catch up with modern husbandry and allow captive breeding, even for profit, of many native species. It'd be great if a general template could be developed and adapted for the specific herps in each state, but keeping methods and other generalities, well, general. It's tough to keep up with what is and isn't allowed (like road cruising) from state to state, especially when visiting several states per year, let alone on a single excursion. That's why I put together the page on my site www.mcmartinville.com/chris/reptiles/trips/equip.htm in an attempt to provide a single source for all those confusing regs!

I'd also be very interested in hearing ideas to enable dedicated private-sector herpers to be able to "give back" through the release of native species back to the wild. I know it's not generally a Good Thing due to the concern for disease introduction, but perhaps the regs could be tooled to incorporate an intermediate process through local vets or zoos with the equipment to ensure the health of the potential introductions.

Regardless of all this, HABITAT LOSS is still the absolute number one concern for herps worldwide. Lots of "animal lovers" feel some sense of accomplishment when getting laws banning pet herps passed, then return to their new-construction homes which displaced, and outright buried, hundreds of local herps. Which reminds me: perhaps there could be a "salvage permit" in which herpers could be permitted to collect herps from such construction zones in order to get them into a captive-breeding program.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

What state are you from? I am from California. Lived in N. California all my life and I agree with just about everything you said. Especially the salvage program for new construction. Hat would be great.
My reptile collection and research

>>What state are you from? I am from California.

Must...resist...urge...to point out...web site...in signature...

Lived in N. California all my life and I agree with just about everything you said. Especially the salvage program for new construction. Hat would be great.

Well, I don't know about hats, but I'm more familiar with the SoCal stuff--herped there a few times over the last few years, with some good guys who've been doing it quite a while. I don't understand why people get sting operations against them, or even pulled over while road cruising, over a couple of common snakes, when bag limits are exceeded by every bulldozer in every new housing addition with no CDFG oversight (to my knowledge). OK, I do understand that there are "bad guys" out there poaching, but I don't see a whole lot of prudence, especially given limited nongame LE budgets, over tricking someone to pull over for a rubber snake.

I own some CA herps which were legally collected and GIVEN to me, and since I don't live in CA, I can breed them and (gasp) maybe even contribute to the body of knowledge on them, rather than plow them under for a new house.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I don't see anything wrong with field collecting. I personally am against collecting animals for the purpose of resale, but I see no reason why someone should not be able to collect reptiles for personal use, to give to others, or even to breed in an attempt at earning a profit. With that being said, it may not be legal to do this in some states/municipalities and I beleive in upholding the law. In places where it is not legal, I think efforts should be made to make it become so. Unless there is evidence that a species cannot support being collected, reasonable bag limits should be in place. Even animals whose populations cannot support collecting should have some legal way of getting into the hands of the general public. The wildlife of our country should be for everyones benefit. I believe that a hands-off policy will result in the public not having an interest in our native wildlife and not understanding it. If there is no one who is interested in our wildlife, then there will be no one there to defend it against habitat destruction or any other challenges that our native wildlife may face. I think that as long as it is not taken advantage of, field collecting is a great learning experience and can be beneficial for the public and for our wildlife.
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Jaren
Desert Canyon Reptiles

AMEN I don’t 100% agree with sale for profit but I believe captive propagation and release of captive born individuals can do no harm as long as its done with an individual using his/hers head. Even for a specie that is not threatened such as Sceloporus Occidentalis I believe only good could come with releasing captive bred individuals as long as a slim set of guidelines are followed.
My reptile collection and research

In Texas with 90% of the land private You caould never hurt the snake pop.I do most of my hunting by road collecting where i feel
that i save most of the ones crossing the road. i use them to trade to other hepers who may not be lucky enough to come to Texas or im not lucky enough to go to the state that they live in
. A Good example is the sweetwater rattle snake round up
its been going on for years and every year the get more than the last.If anything hurts the pop this should be a major player.