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hybrids v pure and other ramblings

Tony D Jan 06, 2005 09:15 PM

With few exceptions those who participate in the captive production of reptiles on some level also participate in commercial herpetoculture. In my view, this market reality skews most of what we do. In the act of marketing it is inevitable that we take steps that differentiate our stock from that of others. In herpetoculture, there are many paths to product development. We line and or selective breed for traits that are aesthetically pleasing. We select for mild temperament and adaptability to captive conditions and foods. We actively search for and extract color and pattern mutations to create new, if only temporarily rare, phenotypes. The more recent trends to produce hybrids and "locality" pure specimens however represent diametrically opposed views of product differentiation and where the hobby is going. Both views have their champions and detractors but they like morph production and line breeding need to be viewed as simple methods of product developement if they are to be reconciled.

Awhile back, Jeff Schofield brought up an interesting concept. In comparing the views of those who hybridize and those who feel pure is the way to go he brought up speed and consistency. Certainly from the perspective of bringing new phenotypes to market, hybridizers may do so with speed but the phenotypes are not consistent. Likewise, purists are slow to locate and develop distinctive locality based phenotypes but when they do they are generally pretty stable. I think this observation might hold a partial key to resolving the rift as it were between the two sides.

Putting it in the best light, hybidizers are proactive in their efforts to bring new and unique phenotypes to market. The problem, in the view of purists, lay in the reality that after the initial cross, hybrid phenotypes becomes unstable. It is quite common that after a very few generations that some offspring begin to look like "pure" examples of one of the parent species. The fear is that one of these might make its way into "pure" projects. What if however, hybrids phenotypes were both stable and easily distinguished from "pure" specimens? Would this negate much of the objection? If so, how many generations would it take to stabilize a hybrid phenotype? Not to insinuate that hybriders should work to this end but it is an interesting proposition and it isn't one without example. The beefalo, a highly desirable buffalo/cow hybrid, has been developed into a stable phenotype that is now even considered purebred stock. Though I have positively characterized hybidization as proactive I could just have easily been negative and called it a short cut. This approach to reptile breeding shows, in my opinion, great potential. That however is not to say that it is or need to be an easy path. Through creative out crossing, succeeding line breeding AND culling distinctive new "purebred" strains of domestic herps might be developed. In the end establishing herps as domestic lines will be a key element in maintaining our right to keep them. From this perspective, and this is just my opinion, hybridization might be doing more to the hobby than other lines of breeding. Still, the current heap of indistinguishable mexicana X alterna X ruthveni X Pyro X triangulum X whatever hybrids, doesn't even hint of the potential I imagine?

On the purist side we see some level of preservation of natural phenotypes. Few would argue that preserving a wide selection of "pure" wild types doesn't hold value. However few would also argue that the current ad hoc status of these breeding efforts is capable of maintaining these types for anything but the short term. Without a specific effort among purists to develop a system to track and ensure the purity of their stock, locality breeding too will remain a contentious endeavor. In this light, it isn't the existence of hybrids that threatens the purity of locality stocks, it’s the lack of an agreed upon criteria for establishing the legitimacy of locality stock as well as a system for preserving and conveying this information. Consider this, even if hybrids were not on the scene, the "legitimacy" of stocks would still be threatened by the the presents of animals in the captive gene pool stemming from lines predating even ad hoc efforts to maintain locality information. In deed this is where most if not all the contention around locality stock now emanates. In writing this it has become clear to me that the burden of protecting the purity of locality stocks lay with the purists. Given the proper system no animal of hybrid (or generic) ancestry need find its way into locality projects. Given the proper system, these locality projects might also be maintained for the long haul. Developing such a system and therefore this market niche into something less contentious and more credible requires effort on the purist not on that of others falling in line with purist views.

Replies (25)

bluerosy Jan 06, 2005 10:17 PM

Why can't one have and breed both hybrids and locality specific animals and so called pure snakes?

Most of the top breeders are purists and are hybridizers. My backround was locality specific rosy boas. These are live bearing and can only produce 2-8 young per year. There prices have dropped because NOBODY CARES about locality specific animals no matter how rare they are. Part of this hobby is to share ones love of the animals they are working with and without other people it would be far less interesting. As it turns out there are far more people interested in colorful hybrids than pure animals. These are the same people who choose to stay out of these debates but consistently send me emails from reading this forum and they also support hybrids by buying them. The hybrids sell faster and are more popular than most "so called " purebred animals. I offer both and so do most of the top breeders. Ask them what they think on your next trip to Daytona expo.

Now before anyone starts spouting off that its about making money allow me to point out that same anti-hybrid people that are the most vocal are also the ones that make a good living out of selling their purebred snakes they produce and choose to work with. The hybrids snakes which they so adamently challenge are a competition for their wares they are selling and look alikes are damaging to their profits.

Now I am not saying ALL anti hybrid herpetoculturists are in it for profit (even though for some of us to continue this hobby we have to at least make enough to pay for it) I used to be one of those that was very strict about locality. I have many years as a staunch locality specific breeder. It was not until later I understood the hybrids have a place and one we can love to work with. There is something very attractive about seeing what is going to pop out of an egg next when breeding say a albino sunglow corn to a whitesided everglades ratsnake. Something that nobody has yet seen. Its like art. The F2's from what these breedings will be so unusual to what we have seen and have come to expect to see. The snakes are sooo beautiful they are living works of art that we created through propogation. In the beginning it was left for man to name the animals God gave us. Now we are using our knowledge to produce better livestock and produce beautiful domesticated animals just for our enjoyment. There has been no damage to wild populations that has hurt our hobby. Instead land development and introduction of non-native species seems to be the real problem. Yet it is still one which nature has not had a problem overcoming.

I used to live in Hawaii and did you know that most of the species that exist in the Hawaiian island chain are introduced in the last 100 years. In just the last 20 years probably hundreds of species have been introduced and are flourishing. Even before Captain Cook arrived the animals that existed and considered native were probably introduced by the Polynesians.

I think life is just to short to worry about "what if" when we have much bigger fish to fry. Look whats happening with our country? The family unit? Morality?///these are the things that destroy us and not a bunch of snakes most people have hated and feared throughout time anyway. Go back twenty years and most people in this world believed the only good snake is a dead snake. Also the studies done by Fish and Game is also corrupt. They are in it for the $$ buck as well. Most of the animals they are protecting are NOT endangered and they are refusing new data to come in because this would mean their jobs would be in jeopardy.

I wish everybody would just wake up, get grip and and not sweat the little stuff. Nobody is forcing anyone to like hybrids. Personally I can't stand Ball Pythons and any of the large boids. But I don't slam people for for keeping stupid snakes (Ball Pythons) or slam people for breeding large pythons which keep getting governing authorities to make new laws against reptile keeping and hurting our rights for keeping ANY snakes.

Peace

Tony D Jan 07, 2005 05:27 AM

Didn't say you couldn't I keep locality, generic and hybrid stock. I like all attractive (to me) well bred stock that thrives for me.

ZFelicien Jan 07, 2005 10:34 AM

hey Rainer, I Enjoyed your post. it's good to note that everyone isn't bashing hybrid, I esp. agree with your argument that it is something new and exciting to see what pops up. I'm looking forward to your `05 stock of hybrids and your pure Brooksi stock.
I'm can't wait to see what the snakes in your post produce looks like lots of potential.
Until Then...
~ZF

bluerosy Jan 06, 2005 10:19 PM

Why can't one have and breed both hybrids and locality specific animals and so called pure snakes?

Most of the top breeders are purists and are hybridizers. My backround was locality specific rosy boas. These are live bearing and can only produce 2-8 young per year. There prices have dropped because NOBODY CARES about locality specific animals no matter how rare they are. Part of this hobby is to share ones love of the animals they are working with and without other people it would be far less interesting. As it turns out there are far more people interested in colorful hybrids than pure animals. These are the same people who choose to stay out of these debates but consistently send me emails from reading this forum and they also support hybrids by buying them. The hybrids sell faster and are more popular than most "so called " purebred animals. I offer both and so do most of the top breeders. Ask them what they think on your next trip to Daytona expo.

Now before anyone starts spouting off that its about making money allow me to point out that same anti-hybrid people that are the most vocal are also the ones that make a good living out of selling their purebred snakes they produce and choose to work with. The hybrids snakes which they so adamently challenge are a competition for their wares they are selling and look alikes are damaging to their profits.

Now I am not saying ALL anti hybrid herpetoculturists are in it for profit (even though for some of us to continue this hobby we have to at least make enough to pay for it) I used to be one of those that was very strict about locality. I have many years as a staunch locality specific breeder. It was not until later I understood the hybrids have a place and one we can love to work with. There is something very attractive about seeing what is going to pop out of an egg next when breeding say a albino sunglow corn to a whitesided everglades ratsnake. Something that nobody has yet seen. Its like art. The F2's from what these breedings will be so unusual to what we have seen and have come to expect to see. The snakes are sooo beautiful they are living works of art that we created through propogation. In the beginning it was left for man to name the animals God gave us. Now we are using our knowledge to produce better livestock and produce beautiful domesticated animals just for our enjoyment. There has been no damage to wild populations that has hurt our hobby. Instead land development and introduction of non-native species seems to be the real problem. Yet it is still one which nature has not had a problem overcoming.

I used to live in Hawaii and did you know that most of the species that exist in the Hawaiian island chain are introduced in the last 100 years. In just the last 20 years probably hundreds of species have been introduced and are flourishing. Even before Captain Cook arrived the animals that existed and considered native were probably introduced by the Polynesians.

I think life is just to short to worry about "what if" when we have much bigger fish to fry. Look whats happening with our country? The family unit? Morality?///these are the things that destroy us and not a bunch of snakes most people have hated and feared throughout time anyway. Go back twenty years and most people in this world believed the only good snake is a dead snake. Also the studies done by Fish and Game is also corrupt. They are in it for the $$ buck as well. Most of the animals they are protecting are NOT endangered and they are refusing new data to come in because this would mean their jobs would be in jeopardy.

I wish everybody would just wake up, get grip and and not sweat the little stuff. Nobody is forcing anyone to like hybrids. Personally I can't stand Ball Pythons and any of the large boids. But I don't slam people for for keeping stupid snakes (Ball Pythons) or slam people for breeding large pythons which keep getting governing authorities to make new laws against reptile keeping and hurting our rights for keeping ANY snakes.

Peace

prpipes1 Jan 07, 2005 01:36 AM

First off the truth is that snakes move around and so there is no such thing is true locality specific unless there is some type of mitigating factor like az Mt kings where there there is a stretch of desert in between!I think that unless you can find a pair of any reptile that looks EXACTLY like what the originally described reptile looks like then people can and will call it whatever they want! This whole Hybridization thing is being done too death in just about every forum on the web and it keeps ending up in people either being mad or blasting someone on the next forum. Purity is a good thing and Hybrids are incredible and reduce the strain on wild pops. People want and will always want something that noone else has so unless it is hurting the wild pop. in some way why do people who think the snake is awesome but will not admit it keep argueing over it? Just take a minute and look at the 4th pic in bluerosies last pic? That is one of the best looking snakes I have sen in a long time! Pure Georgous

Ecosense Jan 07, 2005 09:41 AM

Tony,
Along the lines of organizing locality/hybrids I have tried to locate a pit tag type of device to mark my stock. My idea is similar to captive raised birds with closed ring bands I could pit tag my animals and keep detailed notes on pedigree. I can't find any suitable equipment.

Imagine putting a digitaly readable tag into every snake you produce, with a reader anyone could access the animals origins, thereby solving some of the questions regarding look-a-like hybrids. Obviously not fullproof but with a little organisation we could make it work.

Just for thought,
Bob Bull

ZFelicien Jan 07, 2005 10:44 AM

you have an interesting idea there, I too had a similar idea, but it was for tracking lost hatchling when they "ran away." who knows it may happen someday, technology keeps getting better and better and components keep getting smaller so we may just be able to get a chip small enough to implant without damaging our snakes.
~ZF

Uncloudy Jan 07, 2005 05:09 PM

Nods to Tony D and bluerosey you two 2 stated how I feel on purists vs. hybrids.
I had just one thought on the issue and it made me think of how canines are A.K.C. certified and wouldn't it be nice if in the herpetological field if somehow scientists, hobbists, and breeders set up some kind of system to and paperwork to document specific locality snakes. As these snakes would have certification and paperwork documenting that they are pure breed snakes and represent the local and genes present how they would be found in the wild. I guess for the purists that would solve the problem and that how breeders and people in the dog world recognize their dogs are purebreed examples of the the species by having them A.K.C. certified and the documentation to back it up.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

Nokturnel Tom Jan 07, 2005 05:17 PM

That is a good idea, but I know some serious pet lovers who told me there's plenty of "fake" paperwork floating around as far as pure breed puppies. I could see the same thing happening in the herp world. The whole key to this never ending debate is responsibility. Hoping for honestly respresented animals and making sure no snakes escape from their enclosures....hybrid or pure. Unforuntately I don't think I have ever met anyone who has not lost a snake at one time or another. All you can say is it happens to the best of us. It seems to me that some locale breeders seem to keep to themselves,in my opinion they're the ones who should be doing more to preserve what means so much to them. How can people be inspired to do the right thing when there seems to be lack of input from the people who are involved? Know what I mean? Nice snake you posted,,,,what exactly is that? Tom Stevens

Uncloudy Jan 07, 2005 05:38 PM

I can see what you mean about ppl/breeders faking paperwork, but it may be a start to preserve the pure, wild, locality specific snakes and lessen confusion.
The snake in the picture is a male Mexican Kingsnake (Lamp. mex. mex) from Bob Applegate. Here's another pic of the female from the same clutch.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

Tony D Jan 07, 2005 07:15 PM

preserve the habitat.

Uncloudy Jan 07, 2005 08:07 PM

Amen to preserving habitat and let nature ensure genetically responsibility of genes and species.
Get involved in and support your local or area herp club that promotes habitat conservation. Here in Arizona we have quite a few.
However, in the future, due to habitat loss, threatened and endangered species hobbists, breeds, zoos, herpetalogists must take responsibility for preserving species before they are lost through certification, regulations, and accredited rules.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

chiropteragirl Jan 08, 2005 01:41 PM

I have friends right now who do a lot of work trying to correct the health problems their overly strict breeding policies have created in dogs with limited gene pools. Also Slective breeding will not preserve physical looks as one my think. Look at many breeds of dogs and cats today and compare them with dogs and cats 50 years ago or more. German shepards did not have an exaggerated sloping back as many do today and the flattened look of many cats was much less pronounced as were the health problem these pysical attributes cause. While one could argue that genetic diversity may effect repitles differently, leaving up to nature by preserving habitat will always be the best choice. As for localities, I wonder at one in evolution snakes started reading maps and respecting borders. Also, if a snake pops out of the egg looking more like the ones on the other side of the mountain do you think it has to move?

Nokturnel Tom Jan 08, 2005 02:35 PM

Also, if a snake pops out of the egg looking more like the ones on the other side of the mountain do you think it has to move?
I LOVE IT! LMAO Tom Stevens

chiropteragirl Jan 08, 2005 05:12 PM

Actually they vote on it. The snake get together and cast a secret ballot on an old shed. They get voted over the mountain, or across the river, or what have you. It's sad, yes, but as we know nature is cruel...

JETZEN Jan 08, 2005 05:51 PM

.

chiropteragirl Jan 08, 2005 11:07 PM

Regretfully, there is no rabies vaccination for bats. Due to this it is illegal to keep bats as pets.I tried to apply for a permit, but was told they are only issued to people and place of research. So, now I am back in school, with the goal of writing a book about bats that no one will read. Until that time comes I anxiously await my trips to "The Bridge" in Austin Texas and The North American Bat Symposium, along with whatever volunteer work I can scrounge up.I considered thumbing my nose at the law when the opportunty arose a couple of times, but having one of my charges confiscated and destroyed because of my selfish wants is not something I could deal with well. So unless anyone else has any other ideas, I'll stay in school, go to them and stick to herps for pets. But if they changed the laws tomorrow....

JETZEN Jan 09, 2005 12:52 AM

I enjoy watching them eat bugs at dusk.

chiropteragirl Jan 09, 2005 03:24 PM

I am currently awaiting parts to build a device to detect their sounds so I can obseve them better around here

JETZEN Jan 09, 2005 08:44 PM

I have seen plans for building bat houses i'm thinkin about making one and setting it up in my yard.

Terry Cox Jan 07, 2005 07:48 PM

Hi, Tony.

I'm not a big breeder, nor do I have lots of experience trying to deal with the issue of purist vs. hybrid breeder. But I would like to make a couple comments, have no idea if they will help anyone, and plan on just being honest about where I'm at.

I've mostly bred Old World ratsnakes (Elaphe) in the past and a few American colubrids. Most of the snakes I've seen were fairly rare, some never having been bred before in the U. S. I have a very vested interest in getting locality information and breeding true to some kind of a locality, mainly because we're developing a species or subspecies and trying to get it established in the hobby. Some forms haven't even been named, yet, down to a subspecies, and some species are being split into new species, etc.

Let me use one of the species I have a lot of experience with and have bred a lot. It is the Chinese twin-spotted ratsnake, Elaphe bimaculata. Take into consideration that this species has a small range, several Chinese provinces around the Yangste River in East China. At first we weren't even sure it was a separate species from another ratsnake, E. dione, that has an overlapping distribution. Genetics proved it was.

One of the things I do is record the babies with a photo. This baby from August, 2004, is about two wks old...

Notice that the next baby is a different color. It is not the same animal, but a sibling about three months old...

All the babies in this clutch looked alike when they were born. They all go through color changes, or phases, as they mature. I can tell them apart by the number of spots going down the back, how many spots are connected, the head pattern, etc. As a matter of fact, each photo is like a fingerprint of the snake. It is so easy to i.d. them that these photos would even stand up in court (so don't try to steal them, heheh). I recommend every serious breeder photo his newborns to protect and identify them.

Remember this species is from a small range. Now look at the variability in the sp. This is the mother of the two babies I just showed....

I can only hope they look that good when they are adults, but they sure don't look like her now. Part of the problem is that when you cross two snakes even of the same species, even with this small range, the genes get diluted somewhat.

Here's another example of a twin-spot. She is a silvery morph that would breed true if I bred her to another silver morph...

You can see that it is difficult to keep some genes separate even when it is the same species, subspecies, and even same locality. If I crossed the silver morph with the first morph (blonde) I would get a twin-spot that could not be i.d.ed to either morph and I could never get the morph back again in its pure form.

I think folks like me are trying to keep certain snakes as pure as possible for a reason. One of the things I fear about hybrids, even crossing subspecies, is that the "generic" snake you eventually end up with will have such diluted genes that any additional morphs in that form will be lost. By crossing species whole species may be lost someday. That probably sounds like an exaggeration, but with some rare species, and some that are endangered with extinction, you want to preserve their genes.

I also try to keep the shed skins of most of my snakes. This is a skin of a Chinese beauty snake....

I use the skins to study the scalation in the species and variation in my specimens, but you might be able to use them to i.d. your snakes some day. Not only does each snake have a unique configuration of scales, but each snake has a genetic blueprint the same as a person. And if you really wanted to spend the money you could do a dna analysis. That might be appealing to someone with a $10,000 snake, or whatever.

I know I'm not a business person, but I do see your points, and I do think every breeder, no matter how small, should take an interest in how to verify his snakes and how to market them. I try to do all I can to verify where my snakes came from and get a permanent identification. In the end we really have to trust someone unless we collect the snakes ourselves, then someone needs to trust us.

I'm not totally a purist, btw. I've dabbled in the corn snake group a lot. Lots of corny people think that a corn snake with a little Great Plains ratsnake, like a creamsicle, in them, is a hybrid, and are repulsed by the idea of getting a misidentified snake that's not pure corn. I'm one who thinks these corns, creamsicles, or other corn/emoryi crosses are domesticated pets and have nothing to do with wild snakes. I do have locality corns and G. P. rats too, and I just think we have to keep these various animals separate. I consider these crosses though, until emoryi and guttatus are classed as separate species, then I will consider them hybrids.

I'm one who would take each case separately. Of course, it's all just my opinion, but there are times when hybridizing doesn't make that much difference, and other times when it would be rather shocking, if it were messing up someone's lifelong project somehow. Rare cases probably.

Although we can go round and round with these discussions and maybe get nowhere, I do think there's some valuable information from time to time, and everyone does there part, little or a lot. The hobby has its problems, but it has its rewards, or we wouldn't do it. I'm lovin' it. Thanks for listening if you made it this far.

Terry

-----
Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

Tony D Jan 07, 2005 08:07 PM

Agree with all you said. I think that each person is responsible for their own collection and the direction it takes. Personally I gave up the idea of saving wild pops long ago and take this as a hobby. As such I don't think it behooves me to denegrate others stock because they're taking a new or differnt tact. I like attractive cb snakes whether locality, generic or hybrid and I respect those breeders that care well for their animals.

Terry Cox Jan 07, 2005 09:54 PM

Thanks and you said it all well.

I agree we cannot save wild pops with captive breeding. Best we can do is help save some habitat for them. We can try to save some genes by keeping them in captive breeding programs.

What I like is my opinion and my preference, and I have no control over what others do, if I like it or not. I happen to not like crossing species or genera, but I won't tell others what to do. We make our own choices and not my place to judge others. I just hope we don't have whole species that are generic, but I don't think the purists among us will allow that.

I respect all others who also have respect for others and their animals. I hope the bad elements don't ruin it for everyone. It's a great hobby and I have a lot of fun with it. Good strand...

Terry

bluerosy Jan 07, 2005 08:20 PM

I have had to use the markings on the heads of the neonates I sell on the classifieds to match them up with what the buyer picks out. When you have a clutch of snakes and you post the pics the buyer wants THAT particular animal. That is when i have to match the head pattern of the pic to the snake to make sure the buyer gets the right snake. Seems like a great way to start recording actual locale animals IMO.

I have also used the head patterns of neonate pics and then matched my holdback snakes to show the growth progress made.I would think this way of identifying snakes would also help a breeder if any of his/her snakes are stolen.

I'm not totally a purist, btw. I've dabbled in the corn snake group a lot. Lots of corny people think that a corn snake with a little Great Plains ratsnake, like a creamsicle, in them, is a hybrid, and are repulsed by the idea of getting a misidentified snake that's not pure corn. I'm one who thinks these corns, creamsicles, or other corn/emoryi crosses are domesticated pets and have nothing to do with wild snakes. I do have locality corns and G. P. rats too, and I just think we have to keep these various animals separate. I consider these crosses though, until emoryi and guttatus are classed as separate species, then I will consider them hybrids

Can't agree with you enough on this statement either!

Terry Cox Jan 07, 2005 10:05 PM

I appreciate the comments.

I know a few herpers that have had a certain snake for as much as 15 or 20 yrs. running. It would be nice to have a way to record the date and snake when we get them. Of course, there weren't the neat cameras back then that we have today. But techniques are improving all the time. Hopefully I can help.

I like the idea of like finger printing the animal, have it on record somewhere to verify its i.d. Then you can log on somewhere check it out and know exactly what you're getting. I think we're kind of heading in that direction.

Later....TC

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