Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And keeping with the spirit of recent threads , the top pic is of a wild caught male pyro from the Chiricahuan Mtns, so yes they can be spectacular and wc. Not common but possible. The bottom pic is of a baby he sired this year. Not quite as nice as Dad but give me a few years and I might surpass him. At that point it might not resemble the vast majority of pyros out there, but there is still the possibility that one at that extreme does exist. A point that no one has brought up yet (unless I missed it) is that we are only selecting for a handful of genes that control color and pattern. The remainder of the genes have not been selected on and are still pure. They code for stuff like instincts, metabolizing enzymes, number of teeth, tail length, hemipene structure, number of vertebra, optimal body temperature, scale counts, and whether they pooh pooh on you when you pick them up.

BTW, while I would never even consider hybridizing my locality specific rosies or mountain kings, I just love my hybrid hypo boas (Panamanian line crossed with a normal Columbian). I think that is what they are.

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Hi,
Thanks for the pics and the post. That WC male is very nice looking. I love locale pyro, but I do keep non locales too. Heres a pic of a male F-1 Gardner Canyon that Ric Blair produced, I got him and a female-(sibling to the male) from Jason Nelson. This pic is old, but they will be breeding in the spring, I cant wait to see the babys from them.Thanks again for those pics of the pyros, the baby is also nice but that wc male is beautiful.
Jeff Teel

Captive Bred Tri-colors

Hi,
Since I posted the male I thought I'd put the female up too-(these pics have been posted here before, they are kind of old, I'll get new ones in the spring when its warm again outside), but I think they are gonna produce some nice babys.She almost laid eggs this year, she bred x my het-hypoerythristic male but she re-absorbed the eggs. She was in good health so this year she should give me good eggs forsure as shes much bigger now.
Jeff Teel

Captive Bred Tri-colors

Hey, nice pyros. But where's all the black, haha. Did you see my really dark one down below?

PS: I'm going to email you about the Davis kings.

TC

Awesome pyros Rick and Jeff. Here's one I've posted before. I collected this one from the east side of the Santa Ritas. It's got plenty of black for Terry Cox too! Who says a pyro must have reduced black to be purty?

Greg

Oh, man! You're a lucky guy, Greg. Did you see my pic in the strand about hybrids a few strands down? That one was from the southwest corner of the Ritas. I like the distribution of red and black on yours better. It's awesome. Hope I can find one like that this summer ;0) TC

>>Awesome pyros Rick and Jeff. Here's one I've posted before. I collected this one from the east side of the Santa Ritas. It's got plenty of black for Terry Cox too! Who says a pyro must have reduced black to be purty?
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>>Greg
>>

Nice bold colors on that one KingAZ. This is one from the Huachucas. The other one I have from that locale is very red. Great variability. I'll email you tonight Terry.

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Great one, Rick. I bet one could come up with almost an all black and white snake eventually, not that that's what I'm looking at. Talk to ya later tonight. TC.

Hi Terry,
Your pyro from the previous post is gorgeous. I have seen a few wild pyros that have reduced black and perfect patterns, but most seem to have alot of black and abberant patterns. I like both types.

Here is a mean, stub tailed girl with plenty of black from the same locale as the above snake. She bit me twice when I found her. Never had a pyro do that before.

Greg

Wow that one looks like a beast. I love the knoblochi-ish side pattern. I have a line like those from the Chiricahuan Mtns. I have seen pyros from the Santa Ritas and Chiricahuas (obviously) that have the lateral fusion of the white bands, but have not seen it in other ranges. Maybe Rich knows how widespread this character is in southern AZ.

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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

can occasionally pop up anywhere in pyro distribution but seems show up regularily in populations south and east of Tucson, and most commonly (at least in my experience) in the two ranges you just mentioned, the Santa Ritas and the Chiricahuas. Add to this that about one quarter of the snakes from the Sierra Tarahumara and Yecora, Sonora have almost unbroken patterns much like typical Az. pyros and I often wonder if L. pyromelana isn't really monotypic.

Beautiful looking pyros.
Is there any correlation of the pyros with more black coming from colder areas or higher elevations?
After seeing these pics I'm more of a fan of these pyros with black than reduced black. Nice posts.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

San Luis Potosi Kingsnake (Lamp. mex. mex.)

I have never seen any evidence to substanciate it. I have found that most populations run at about 50/50 with some extreme individuals at either end. In Oak creek Canyon for example friends and I compared notes and snakes from a 16 year period and found that the snakes we had observed ran exactly 50/50, half with lots or all black crossovers and half with almost no black crossovers. One thing I do think holds true is that very hot areas are much more likely to produce very reduced black pyros although they are much harder to find in these areas as the heat and lack of humidity reduce periods of surface activity. And by hot area I don't mean it has to be low elevation Xeric habitat. It can be a barren, sunbeaten, southwest talus slide at 10,000 feet.

I like your analysis, Rich. I don't have much experience with pyromelana, but have studied various other sps. in the wild. I think most if not all carry genes for a large range of color/pattern variations. Microhabitats can select for a particular set of genes that favor survival in that habitat. The pyro I showed before that had so much black came from near the top of a mtn. in the Ritas...

I can't help, but think, that these dark ones would be common at high elevations, except in hot spots, of course.

Here's another that we found in the Chiricahuas at a much lower elevation (Southwest Research Station), that still has lots of black crossovers, however...

Kinda shows that different forms can be found at all different elevations, sorta what Rich said.

I like the snakes with black. I haven't decided yet how much black or how I like the pattern best, but I think a snake with all three colors fairly evenly distributed in some consistent pattern are very appealing.

Have a great weekend...TC

Nice Terry!,

I think that top snake is just a beauty!

Rich

Greg, very interesting snake. I thought it looked like a Chihuahuan too.

As relating to these snakes biting, I've never been bitten by one (only seen two in the wild), but I've been working with Eastern milks all my life. I know they're a different sps, but I think they're pretty closely related and have similar behaviors. Anyway, I've had Easterns latch on to me, and sometimes they hold on and do this chewing movement. I've been bitten by babies too. And I've caught a mole king that bit and did the chewing movement.

In other words, I'm not surprised you got bit, haha.

TC

one of my favorite patterns in one you often see in the Chiricahuas. Heavy black hourglasses on every triad and restricted high on the back leaving the sides just red and white. I also have found some screamer Patagonias over the years with extremely heavy black and very wide white or bright yellow bands. Captive bred from this stock often displayed bright yellow green noses. I wish I still had my Patagonia snakes. I narrowed the captive collection down to just Santa Rita snakes. One of my Patagonia babies with moderately heavy black is on display at the G&F office in Tucson though if anybody has ever seen that one.

Rich

Rich, once I start my pyro collection, I'll probably concentrate on Santa Ritas (for obvious reasons). I'd love to see one of your offspring from the Patagonia project you had. Maybe I'll get to stop at the Tucson office in March.

Do you remember the awesome pryos that came from the Black Range, New Mexico, a year or two ago, that was posted on Field Collectors forum? That's another pyro I'd consider keeping. Can't wait to make the move to AZ.

TC

Hey Terry,

I remember those. I have two pairs I am currently raising. Pic below is on of my females. Besides my Santa Ritas (my only Arizona locality now) I have the Black Ranges and also from the Peloncillos, Hidalgo Co. New Mex.

Best of luck with those. It'd be interesting to hear how you got those someday. I plan to head up N. M. way one of these years. Have an uncle that lives up near Taos. TC.

Now THAT is an awesome pyro

here is mine

Here are a bunch of my pyro pics. Some are old, so the quality sucks on some of the pics.

And my girlfriend and I only have 5 pyros between the two us (we are allowed to have a total of 8 btw)

So here are a bunch of pics, some wild-caughts, some offspring from wild-caughts.

Kerby...

A nice male that had a stubby tail. I used him for breeding for 2 years. Gave him away last year.

Kerby...

Kerby...

A female that I will be breeding to a male from the exact same area.

I really like her bands as they go completely around her body.

Kerby...

Hi,
Heres a female "wc" prescott pyro-(I didnt collect her myself, my uncle did, she had a nasty wound near the vent too when he gave her to me, but it healed nicely), and i recieved her in oct.'03 and cleaned her wound-(you kind of see it on the 31st white triad, but the sun makes it bright there and you cant that well, but it was deep, looked like a tooth bit right through or something) and hibernated her and she laid 5 eggs in '04-(from a het-hypo BHB poss. het-albino male,but they were all infertile, I'm hoping she lays good eggs this year), anyways, nice pics Kerby, and everyone, I love seeing post with pyros and mtn.kings, they need they're own forum i think, a mtn.king forum.Anyways, thanks again everyone for pyro pics, I love that one you posted greg, i remember the first time I saw that pic i thought it was a very neat looking pyro.
Jeff Teel

Captive Bred Tri-colors

A male that will breed to the female from the same spot.

Kerby...

The dark little pyro is Jerry Kersey's first pyro that he caught in 2002 in Prescott. I gave him specific instructions on where to look (since I was at work) and he found it within 20 minutes, now how come I can't find them that easy LOL. It happened to be a male, so I gave him a cb female (light colored one that just hatched out)

Kerby...

I got this male as a baby from Lloyd Lemke in 1997 before he passed away. I have no idea on the locale. It is now probably over 50 inches.

Kerby...

from a few years ago.

Kerby...

I hatched her her out a few years ago from 2 wild-caught Prescott pyros that both had a lot of black cross-overs (typical from Prescott). She doesn't have any black cross-overs, but her siblings did. Just goes to show you that even Prescott has some not so typical pyros. In 1997, Chris Garcia caught one near this same area in Prescott that looked like this too, no black cross-overs.

I will be breeding her for the first time this spring to a Prescott male.

I really like the red (as compared to orange) in the Prescott pyros. They seem to be darker when they age, as well as being darker in males.

Kerby...

Hi kerby,
Thats super nice looking, keep me inmind for a male this year..?, I have my wc female that I need to pair up, I'm hopign to make it over that way this year, try to see soem pyros in the wild, that would be very neat, anyways,talk to you later,
Jeff

Thanks, yes you're first in line on some pyros.

Kerby...

I have yet to do any field collecting in AZ. I may be moving there in a few years and have been brushing up on the area by reading Brian Hubbs new book on Mtn Kings. Seems they are VERY difficult to find compared to other the mtn kings in calif.

Jeff and Kerby have you read Brians book yet?

I have his book, if not Brian would never crash at my house anymore. Also, since Brian was so nice to list me in the credits, I had to buy a book, even if was just to show my future grand kids LOL. But seriously, I haven't read it yet, not thru and thru. It's a timing thing. If I read it now, I will get all fired up and won't be able to go herping. If I read it in February, then the timing will be much better.

Kerby...

Its a great book and one we can keep referring back to over and over. His chapters on the pyros is extensive and got me excited to try and find one in the wild.

Brian mentioned me in his book as well but I still owe him for the book. I did pay him for it but then I asked for a $50 loan and never paid him back because I figured a kickback was due for using my goog name and pics!

*Brian, just kidding. If you are reading this I will pay you as soon as i graduate curb painting school

n/p

Found this one in Prescott a few years ago. Unfortunately because of development, these rocks don't exist anymore. I wonder how many pyros die because of the blasting?

Kerby...

pyro laying eggs..............

Kerby...

Kerby...

from a few years ago.

Kerby...

Kerby...

with lots of black cross-overs.

Kerby...

Prescott sometime and flip pyros like I do zonata here in the spring. All the pyros I have seen were in August out cruising. There is just something about turning a rock or peering into a crack and seeing that red flash.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles