Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm mostly a lurker on the forum but have another question I've been wanting to ask.
I sent a note personal note out to jfernino(sp?) but thought I'd also ask at large: Can anyone tell me the best way to tell an Eastern fox snake from a Western fox Snake by physical characteristics? I purchased two and one is quite paler than the other. I'm thinking it may be due to geographical origins much like the the fact that many of the Amer. Robins I see in the midwest have a much "oranger" breast than the washed out Robins I've seen when I've travelled to more western states.
I'm still intersted to know how different Easten Fox snakes look compared to Westerns.
Thanks,
Vulpy

According to my book Corn Snakes And Other Rat Snakes, it says "The two fox snakes are difficult to distinguish if the orgin of the specimen is not known" The book also talks about E. Vulpina having an average of 41 dorsal & lateral blotches and E. Gloydi having an average of 34. "The head of the adults of both species can be orange to coppery-red, although E.gloydi is more apt to be the brighter". Hope that helps.

Steve

Steve:
As I've mentioned to others. I'm skeptical of the split in this species. As an avid birder, I've seen many splitting and lumping of species. In most/all cases, it seems as when a species is split, regardless of geographics or genetics, there is a diagnostic field mark which seperates two different species. Do you know what organization has the official taxonomic authority over North American Reptiles? Thanks for your note.
Tim
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FoxfanTim

There is a chance that the blotch count can prove it one way or the other.
But the overlap is very wide so it's not a sure thing. Also some westerns
look very different from the gloydi (duller and lighter coloration than
gloydi) and in that case you can identify a western. But there are westerns
that strongly resemble the gloydi appearance. So it's often very hard to
say.

Descriptions (per Schulz):

vulpina: 34 to 52 saddle blotches extending over 3 to 4 or rarely 5 scales.
9 to 19 tail rings

gloydi: 28 to 43 saddle blotches extending over 4 to 6 scales 9 to 16 tail
rings.

If you have photos I'll take a look but it's only a chance that I'll be able to tell. Maybe a few other folks like John Meltzer and Bart Bruno can lend an opinion.

John

Hello John:
Before I attempt the blotch counting method: Do the "double blothches" that are connected count as one or two blotches? As I mentioned to T. Cox, I'm wondering about whether there should be two seperate species. I do admit I am oblivious of any genetic research on the two forms. I'm curious on the Shulz subject you credited and whether this is a good source of info on fox snakes.
I've enjoyed my western Foxes so much I've considered purchasing a pair of E. gloydi from a source in Texas to make my first attempt at breeding snakes. I have two westerns that I purchased ( I have the paper work)from E. Bay Vivarium in California, however, I've discovered it's questionable whether I can breed them as they occur wild in my home state. I guess that's one good reason for a split in the species.
Thanks you for your note.
Tim
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FoxfanTim