Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Happy New Year Guys!

My question is this: During the first year of life...what GROWTH rates have you noticed in male and female captive bred D.c.couperi?

1)Maximum Growth Noted:

2)Minimum Growth Noted:

3)Difference between male and female growth rates.

This is a truly good question, because it can be answered not by only experienced Couperi breeders, but also by relative novices..who are raising their First or Second Eastern Indigos..or pehaps trying their hands at breeding them for the first time. So...everyone....chime in!

Thanks,

Fredrick Albury
Aztec Reptiles

yes good question. i am doing the same sort of measurements with hatchling louisiana pines. i hope to get data for three or four years in a row and then do some number crunching.
dave

Hello,

the growth rates depends also on the feeding and the size of the parents.

A friend of me (he only had boas before and has not known anything about indigos before) did feed his male very often. His male was with 12 months 4 ft. and very strong, not fat. The father of the male is over 8 ft.

I told him to stop feeding him very fast because the Indigo could get sick because of this.

My male Indigo was 2 months old when I got him, approx. 1,5 ft. After a year (August 2001, he hatched in the first week in August 2000) he had 80 cm (1 ft. = 30 cm).

My female Indigo was 4 months old when I got her (I picked her up in September 2000 at the Reptile Fair in Hamm from the Dutch breeder) approx. 50 cm in length. In May 01 she was 3 ft. (90 cm).

The male did not feed when I got him, it tooked me 5 weeks to get him his first meal (a leg of a one-day chick).

The female was eating like all Indigos, very good.

My opinion is that overfeeding is resulting in snakes which don´t want to breed. Also they will die earlier.

I feed my female every 7 days, my male every 10 days. As food I offer rats (small rats).

Here in Europe we have problems with inbreeding of Indigos because no imports from the U.S.A. are allowed.

Years ago I tryed to get a permission, but I failed. Mrs. Linda LaClaire from the US-Fish and Wildlive Service tryed to help me, but the responsible person in Washington did not answer my e-mails and the e-mails of Mrs. LaClaire.

The Indigos which are coming from inbreedings stay smaller and getting fat.

The growth rates of snakes depends on many different factors and are not easy to tell.

Greetings from Germany.

Juergen

"The Indigos which are coming from inbreedings stay smaller and getting fat."

i'm hoping that others will chime in here and offer evidence to the contrary of what Juergen is stating.

both of my '02 (1.1) couperi have slowed their growth considerably. they are both ~3.5' long and bulky, bordering on fat. i never power fed and have varied their diet as much as i dared (i avoided any live fish, frogs, and reptiles). i'm beginning to think that they are destined for the dwarfism that has been discussed of late.

their appetite has plummeted in the last 3 months from voracious feeders, hitting their food before it touched the ground to "well, okay i'll eat it if you want me to."

i suspected my pair was from inbred stock, but i'm sure hoping that more length growth is in their future.

matt

Could captive born Easterns be imported if they were on a breeding loan or a genuine gift?

Other subspecies like D. corais corais, melanurus, rubidus, unicolor.... can be imported and exportet, only D. c. couperi not. I do not understand this at all. Mr. Dean Allesandri knows Mrs. LaClaire of the U.S.-Fish and Wildlife Service, he could get a detailled answer because of this.

Thank you and greetings to all from a German Indigo fan.

Juergen

There are several issues here: CITES, The ESA (United States 'Endagnered Species Act') and also international export.

The Endangered Species Act is a USA Federal Law and regulates the use of animals that are listed Endangered or Threatened within the borders of the USA.

CITES oversees the use of animals traded internationally.

D.couperi are listed by the ESA. Commerce between states of ESA listed animals is allowed with proper permits. They can be given or donated to people in other states without a permit. Unfortunately exporting or importing them in or out of the United States is pretty much prohibited period.

D.couperi are not listed in any CITES appendix. As such, outside the United States, they can be easily exported between countries as easily as any other drymarchon.

This will not change. No legal D.couperi will be exported out of the USA unless done by Zoos with LOTS of clout. Individuals and small businesses will simply not be able to do it ever.
Doug T

>>Other subspecies like D. corais corais, melanurus, rubidus, unicolor.... can be imported and exportet, only D. c. couperi not. I do not understand this at all. Mr. Dean Allesandri knows Mrs. LaClaire of the U.S.-Fish and Wildlife Service, he could get a detailled answer because of this.
>>
>>Thank you and greetings to all from a German Indigo fan.
>>
>>Juergen

Doug Taylor Reptiles

I liken this case to another favorite snake of mine: Argentine Boa Constrictors, which in their country of origin are fully protected, I believe even Endangeredwild , and export from the country of origin (Argentina) is prohibited by law. WORLDWIDE, on the ohter hand, this snake is captive bred in fairly large numbers and sold openly, without permits. So, it is fair to say that this snake is more common in captivity than in the wild, which is a damn shame if you ask me. While I love the things,I wish that they were less common in Herpetoculture and abundant in the wild.

Good question Fred, I hope to see many more replies!

I just went back through my records on the 1.2 couperi that I have and there is a noticeable difference between the male and the females. My first couperi was an 02 female who i'm now convinced is a dwarf. She did not eat for several months and then when she did start eating didn't have the voracious appetite that i'd always heard about. When her appetite finally came around she quickly began pounding on the weight but never gained much length. At 2.5 years she's only about 38" according to the snake measuring program.

The 2nd couperi also a female (03) took off much quicker and is between 4.5 & 5 ft. at 1.5 yrs.

The male, an 04 hatchling is blowing them both away and I can't wait to see what he ends up looking like!

Here are the weight records through 1.5 years:

#1 02 Female #2 03 Female #3 04 Male

2 wks = 34 gr 2 mos = 44 gr 2 mos = 44 gr
5 mos = 42 gr 4 mos = 54 gr 4 mos = 88 gr
8 mos = 60 gr 6 mos = 72 gr 5.5 mos = 126 gr
11 mos = 109 gr 8 mos = 82 gr
12 mos = 138 gr 10 mos = 138 gr
16 mos = 242 gr 12 mos = 294 gr
18 mos = 356 gr 16 mos = 718 gr
18 mos = 928 gr

The final weight for #2 was take today and #3 was taken 1/1/05.

Eric
-----
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

I had everything in columns but, as you can see it didn't transfer.

Eric
-----
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

the 2 month weight for the male should be 62 grams and not 44 as indicated in the original post.

Eric
-----
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Got my male from Rick Sladick. He is a 03' about 17 months old and right at 5 foot long! I got him at 24" long when he was just over a month old. At the time he was the largest of the clutch and the only one to take mice right from the get-go! He grew very quickly and was 56" long at 12 month! He started eating medium rats a few month ago, but I keep his diet mixed with mice still. I feed him twice a week until late Nov. when I cut back to once a week. He decided to take a month off from eating and just recently began feeding again. He was never obese, but has a large cage, stays active during late morning hours and early evenings.
I saw his parents and have to guess his father was just over 6 foot and mother around 5 foot (at time of purchase in 03').

Zee

I am in the process of dissecting the posts and the statistical evidence therein. I have compiled a large amount of stats and info on growth rates on the Couperi I both produced over the last number of years,as well as those of fellow keepers. I will post this information in a more consolidated form here in the future. I too share a concern for limited gene pools and inbreeding, but luckily have not been plaqued by these demons. Have seen, first hand what inbreeding produces(small easterns that either dont grow, or have completely staggered and retarded growth curves) Thanks again for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

Thankfully,
Fredrick Albury

You're welcome Fred! BTW that male is from your line.

I'm a little disappointed with the number of responses to this thread though. I had hoped to hear from everyone.

Eric
-----
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

"You're welcome Fred! BTW that male is from your line."

eric,

any relationship between our indigos? offline is fine.

matt

Finally got a chance to measure my guy. One of Rob's hatchlings from this year July 12 hatch date. He's a little over 28 inches. Seems to be doing fine, but this is my first baby indigo and first indigo since the early '70's., so I'm not sure about normal growth rates. Rob made the purchase and transition easy and he was well started before I got him.Many thanks, I love the ltttle guy. I understand that he is from a pair obtained from you, Fred. If you ever get time, could you email me about their lineage-as much as you know as far back as you know even if it isn't completey certain. Thanks Frank

Sorry, I realized I wasn't very specific since there are multiple Robs producing babies. I am in Iowa, and obtained my indigo from Rob Carmichael in Ill. Again, he made the whole process comfortable and easy. Thanks Again

Fred. If you ever get time, could you email me about their lineage-as much as you know as far back as you know even if it isn't completey certain. Thanks Frank

Ditto!

Eric

-----
If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Fred-

I also have an awesome male purchased from you (Cadillac progeny ?)
I purchased him in October of 2001 and he was quite young.
I purchased a female from EBV in January 2002 who was about the same age as the male (judging from what I was told from both sources.)

It became apparent right away that even though both had similar appetites, he was going to grow quicker. 3 years later she is still much smaller. (He is now 68", she is 41"

I also am beginning to wonder about dwarfism. I am concerned about ever breeding her. I doubt that in a year (the 4 year mark) that she will be large enough to breed with him without just being a snack for him. After reading all the egg-bound horror stories recently, I also wonder how robust the female needs to be to breed.
It seems possible that one can't expect much more effort than 2-3 breedings including a rest in between. (I wonder if there are differences in the wild -this shorter window of fertility in the female's life could certainly further contribute to a thinning population).

Best,

-Eric Hartshorn (aka- erichart)