Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have argued before that a native wild caught reptile could take a considering drop in temperatures if had to. Relating to the wild and realating to the lows of temps in the winter of species, I have just accomplished that but no fault to my own doing but to mother nature. I know that this might be happening in other areas but if you don't know we are in the midwest and going through one of the most devastating ice storms witnessed for years. Without electric and a place to store my venomous and being in the boonies, we had to endure 2 inches of ice, 3 inches of snow and 1 inch of sleet. There were no motel rooms open due to the complete shutdown of the area and even some of them had no electric. No one had electric for miles around. The ice was so bad , most of us couldn't even get to our cars to open them and then one couldn't go anyplace. So with a genertor ( wise purchase 6 years ago ) we were able to keep the old house in heat and microwave working. The reptiles are in a barn and they just had to suffer, but they didn't. While I found ice in some of the water bowls and temps of cages down to 28, when i checked on the snakes they were up and appeared to be fine. Today after getting electric on and heat going to reptile room, I checked at the temps and it was at 40 degrees with most rattlers and non-venomus up and moving with few rattlers trying to strike ! Of course I plan to still up the cage temps to 50 or so like i have in past while they are brumating.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the information. Where were most of the species from originally? Were they from your own native state? Are they used to being exposed to subfreezing temeratures in the wild where they are natively found?
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Jaren
Desert Canyon Reptiles

MC,
I once read a published paper that I believe indicated that substantial winter mortality of rattlesnakes occurs during years with prolonged subfreezing temperatures. That your snakes were able to suvived a short term freeze is certainly of interest.

Richard F. Hoyer

Evening RH/MC et al.

This is a topic that is rarely posted....here in Az summertime A/C failures occasionally anhilate whole collections... rapidly...Good to see Mike is willing to type about it...

A prudent h-culturist will have a backup system such as that generator [a swamp cooler...whatever it takes...].....the bums amonst us allow wholesale dieoffs...
But... leaving them in the barn....w/ ice on the waterbowls....4-shame....
@ least that death isnt particularly painfull....tho the pneumonia, blindness, et... for any survivors can be...

I'd drape an E-blanket over them if keeping mine in a frozen barn & maintain them @ 50-60* F.

Some folks like Monsiour Hoyer....get perfect weather... year-freeking round!

Here in the lowlands of Az ...you only need a garage

Saludos...RxR

After having almost 2 days now back up to temperature of snakes and cages, there is not one snake showing any ill signs of health. In fact they are moving around to reach the heat source which is the use of light bulbs on thermostats. These are mostly Trans-Pecos region animals. So there are no mis-understanding: I had no choice and was unprepared for this climatic situation. While I have back-up remedies, they were of very little use due to the immense of the problem. And i hadn't given it much thought due to the very mild winters since we have lived here in the past 5 years. We have never experienced a winter like this and only 7 days or so ago we were in the upper 60ties. I know, no excuse. Also it wasn't likley I would of been invited in someplace with the venonmous. As soon as the situation is over I plan on investing in more of the usable back up systems. The killer is that having been in this situation of many years when transporting reptiles while we were in business, I had invested in tons of the those heat packs to use on road while driving in this kind of weather from Florida, Alabama and other places for reptile shows and wholesellers and used these in containers with no problems. Even they would of worked ( in cages ) having used them before for more than 24 hours but when I tried to apply them, they didn't work. Evidently there must be a time limit on usage on them. I wasn't aware that there was !
So now it's time for a scenario: if where I have lived for the past 5 years and being out here for decades on observations, knowing that the freeze line/depth has only been less than 18 ( some one at the wildlife office said 12 inches ) and observing brumation knowledge of the species that I have from the other areas, reptiles certainly get this ZAP sometimes. While I agree that it is probably not long term or of consistently, it has to happen ?

Howdy;

Glad to hear you made it thru w/o loss. Clearly you're doing what you reasonably can to be a responsible keeper.
Amazing how little soil it takes to stop the freeze isnt it. Thats the pt, the cells=tissues musen't (sp?) freeze (Ice peircing the cell wall); tho not long ago...I read somewhere that certain Thamnophis can tolerate a short term freeze! Mebbe they desicate their cells or pump them up w/ salts??

Here in the higher deserts, tortoises occasionally evidence frost damage.

W/a 100 qt ice chest we can avert a tragedy. These are gr8t shortterm emergency storage so one can move a small collection to a friends house.

Cheers; JG

Posted by: mchambers at Sat Jan 8 10:07:26 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

After having almost 2 days now back up to temperature of snakes and cages, there is not one snake showing any ill signs of health. In fact they are moving around to reach the heat source which is the use of light bulbs on thermostats. These are mostly Trans-Pecos region animals. So there are no mis-understanding: I had no choice and was unprepared for this climatic situation. While I have back-up remedies, they were of very little use due to the immense of the problem. And i hadn't given it much thought due to the very mild winters since we have lived here in the past 5 years. We have never experienced a winter like this and only 7 days or so ago we were in the upper 60ties. I know, no excuse. Also it wasn't likley I would of been invited in someplace with the venonmous. As soon as the situation is over I plan on investing in more of the usable back up systems. The killer is that having been in this situation of many years when transporting reptiles while we were in business, I had invested in tons of the those heat packs to use on road while driving in this kind of weather from Florida, Alabama and other places for reptile shows and wholesellers and used these in containers with no problems. Even they would of worked ( in cages ) having used them before for more than 24 hours but when I tried to apply them, they didn't work. Evidently there must be a time limit on usage on them. I wasn't aware that there was !
So now it's time for a scenario: if where I have lived for the past 5 years and being out here for decades on observations, knowing that the freeze line/depth has only been less than 18 ( some one at the wildlife office said 12 inches ) and observing brumation knowledge of the species that I have from the other areas, reptiles certainly get this ZAP sometimes. While I agree that it is probably not long term or of consistently, it has to happen ?

John,
Despite living in the bananna belt here in NW Oregon, we occassionally get extreme temperatures that have the potential of killing captive reptiles. I had an ideal situation in my prior residence that was a two story structure with a full basement. I maintained my Rubber Boas in the basement and is was so well insulated that any power loss was of no consequence.

That is not the case in my current single story residence. I have a detached shed in the back yard in which I house my colonies of lab and deer mice along with the boas I maintain for research. Even though I put in a good layer of insulation in the walls and ceiling, I still have to worry about extreme temperature conditions in both the summer and winter.

I have an air conditioner which has takes care of the extreme warm tempertures and have two space heaters at their lowest setting during the winter.

We are currently having the same series of cold storms hit here in the NW as well as in Calif. and elsewhere but so far, without the snow. Our low temperature was at 19 three days ago with a few other days dipping below 32 F. I have gotten up in the middle of the early morning hours just to check but the temperature inside my shed which has not gone below 39 and usually is at 40 - 41 when the outside temperatures are below freezing.

If we were to loose power during a cold snap, I bring the reptiles into the house in aquaria as I have a wood stove going during the winter. I only have had to do that once in the past. Before I got the air conditioner, I sometimes placed all reptile cages on the cement floor of the shed which worked well and placed water soaked damp towels over part of each cage. The thermal maximum for the boa is somewhere around the mid to upper 90's, possibly a little higher.

Have a question for you. What are some of the extreme cold winter temperatures that occur in the region where the Harris' Hawk occurs in Arizona? I have a falconer friend that worries that this hawks might get frostbite on their toes at some of our current cold tempertures. Does it sometimes get into the 20 degree range in the desert regions of AZ during the winter?

Richard F. Hoyer

Cyber-Salutations once more...

Basements are definitely the best...believe it or not here in scorched-earth-ville...they are very rare!

I'd think youre rubber boas are one of the best for cold snaps as long as they dont freeze; I think it was you who stated once you'd seen them above ground w/ snow yet in the tree shadows!!!
I once fd. an adult sow rosy boa surface active when it was so cold {Feb @ 4000'] I couldnt drive w/ the windows down!

I dont think rosys could survive mid 90's for long & am gonna have to remain a doubter that rubbers can too., tho I dont doubt for a minute that you have a limited data set indcating they can.
Ive watched any number of desert colubrids go into a pre-prostration panic around 95-101. Only the Coachwhips operate w/a T > ~ 100-102

It does hit the 20's on the open desert; rarely here in the cities anymore...but Ive observed inumerable birds of many orders including falconiformes....alternating perching on one foot w/ the other withdrawn into the puff-ball, so I wouldnt worry about it...tho Id want to give em something other than a metal perch!

BTW...you might have overdone it Richard...I asked for you to share those pacific storms, but lordy...Oak creek went nuts w/ a 15' crest....I suspect if those Narrowheads brumate near the water [evolution can be a counter-intuitive process...]....theyre going to be hard to observe this spring...ohwell if we find they're scarce...we can blame it on the collectors!

Aloha; RxR

Posted by: Richard F. Hoyer at Sat Jan 8 13:36:43 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

John,
Despite living in the bananna belt here in NW Oregon, we occassionally get extreme temperatures that have the potential of killing captive reptiles. I had an ideal situation in my prior residence that was a two story structure with a full basement. I maintained my Rubber Boas in the basement and is was so well insulated that any power loss was of no consequence.

That is not the case in my current single story residence. I have a detached shed in the back yard in which I house my colonies of lab and deer mice along with the boas I maintain for research. Even though I put in a good layer of insulation in the walls and ceiling, I still have to worry about extreme temperature conditions in both the summer and winter.

I have an air conditioner which has takes care of the extreme warm tempertures and have two space heaters at their lowest setting during the winter.

We are currently having the same series of cold storms hit here in the NW as well as in Calif. and elsewhere but so far, without the snow. Our low temperature was at 19 three days ago with a few other days dipping below 32 F. I have gotten up in the middle of the early morning hours just to check but the temperature inside my shed which has not gone below 39 and usually is at 40 - 41 when the outside temperatures are below freezing.

If we were to loose power during a cold snap, I bring the reptiles into the house in aquaria as I have a wood stove going during the winter. I only have had to do that once in the past. Before I got the air conditioner, I sometimes placed all reptile cages on the cement floor of the shed which worked well and placed water soaked damp towels over part of each cage. The thermal maximum for the boa is somewhere around the mid to upper 90's, possibly a little higher.

Have a question for you. What are some of the extreme cold winter temperatures that occur in the region where the Harris' Hawk occurs in Arizona? I have a falconer friend that worries that this hawks might get frostbite on their toes at some of our current cold tempertures. Does it sometimes get into the 20 degree range in the desert regions of AZ during the winter?

Richard F. Hoyer

And what about the ice storm of...02' I believe...that was twice as devastating as this one here in Kansas? I am surprised that they made it through to be honest. Cage temps in the 20s...Your very lucky. With the generator and the obvious heat in your house I suppose that you could have placed the hots in a cooler and then brought it inside. Maybe you should go to your beloved wally-world and simply purchase another generator? Makes sense to me...But then again...With so little invested into the actual collection (being that it is 90% w/c), I suppose there was little to lose because after all...If they all die...That just means another trip to the bend...
"Jack London"

I don't think so bud ! Evidently you didn't read my whole post. I SAID that there was no electric power for miles around and all businesses were shut down, some for days. There are still several thousand people without power in the township south of me. You do not know my values of trying to keep any animal from suffering even if they are wild caught/collected. Wal-Mart don't normally sell gas generators. Then we had to deal ( part of my post ) of even trying to get car doors open with several inches of ice, not to mention where would we be able to buy more gasoline to run another generator. Read that part where I had what I thought was the back-up of using those heat/warmer packs/pads that didn't work because of either out dated or factory flawed. With the " REAL " sophisticated and high tech supposedly advance weather warning system, we were not supposed to have been hit this hard. It started at 12 noon on Tuesday and by 2 pm ( only 2 hours ) it had already shut down the major businesses. The only hardware stores and Wally World still opened had already sold out of the small propane tanks/bottles and ANY OTHER non-electric heating devices. Much to your dismay poster, I had " other " agendas that I had to HARD decide what to do on heat! We have parrots that needed heat. We had our grandchild ( at 3 years old ) that needed heat. Like I said, it was a hard decision to what we could heat and what I thought would survive without it. Bringing in the venomous was not an option due to different species, numbers and size of some. And like I posted on the ven forum, the only way that I am legal here on home owners insurance policy with the major company in the midwest, is to have most reptiles in an out building. So it really begins there where I have no choice other than to have the animals not inside the old house. I guess I could maybe not keep these reptiles but I'm really not ready to give them up since i have been keeping for over 40 years now and am one of the head people trying to fight this proposed ban in Kansas. So what do ya think of that ?

It appears that you are because of your connotation " here in Kansas " in your post. If so, wonder if you even know what I was saying about the ban of reptiles deal in Kansas. If not, remember that several states are and is looking at Kansas on how this proposal is going to play out. If it plays on the ban scenario or restriction, you and I may not even be able to keep reptiles so this problem of cold weather and ice would probably not even come up without being able to keep reptiles. LOL !

I am a strong believe of if you cant say something nice don’t say it at all so Let me see if I can make this sound nice. Mchambers I agree with just about all of you post so far. After all you were caught off guard so what’s a guy to do right? I keep Tippler Pigeons outside and I to was caught off guard the last couple storms and lost a lot of birds. What I don’t agree with is the following quote “I suppose I can stop keeping these reptiles but I am not ready to give them up after keeping for 40 years” My thought to this is you need to not think of your self but think of the extensive collection you have. My recommendation would be to begin looking for homes for them rather than make them endure this again. Keeping in mind you were caught off guard now you know how cold it can get and how fast it can get there so at the very least now that power is restored and places of business are opened back up methods of emergency heat should be installed but I believe in an earlier post you stated that you planed on that anyway. That being said here is my comment on herp and temporary freezing temps. I have not doubt at all they go through it in the wild. The area in witch I conduct a good share of my research is under at least 10 feet of snow right now and in a few months it will be 70-80F and the most beautiful forest land anywhere. The biggest problem I see in your situation is your herps are in captivity. No matter if they were caught wild or not the simple fact that they are caged I am sure adds a little stress that those in the wild population wouldn’t feel in such an environment, Also the fat that your collection has no means to even try to take shelter or find warmer ground to hold out the storm adds more stress. I would say from my personal experience that a captive collection going such as yours going through the situation you described just cant be the best thing for them or good at all. I am at the benefit of living in N. California away from such environments. Although We don’t get sudden freezes here we do get drastic temperature changes. In just such a case with no power I have means via a power inverter being powered by my research vehicle. Being fuel efficient the vehicle could easily power my whole research environment including heat sources for at least a couple days. That all being said I am glad to say there were no ill affects and we hope the best for you, your family and your collection in these horrible storms.

Let it be known the post I do not agree with is as follows
“Maybe you should go to your beloved wally-world and simply purchase another generator? Makes sense to me...But then again...With so little invested into the actual collection (being that it is 90% w/c), I suppose there was little to lose because after all...If they all die...That just means another trip to the bend...”

I will not comment much but to say I hope that’s a joke. Greatfuldead that is no way to think. Comments like that make us all look bad. I don’t care if it’s a $400 Exotic Cobra or a fence lizard that was collected from the yard. They all have the same rights and if not bad enough they are in captivity agents there will they deserve a responsible keeper that will ensure there health and best survival possible to say the least.
My reptile collection and research

As I said, I won't put the reptiles in jeopardy again. That is my reasons of posting in the first place. EH ? I can recommend what I have come up with if this happens again. My propane company is going to sell me at a discount 2 of the large containers of propane. I have a large infra red heating element that attaches to the propane container on hold at the only large lumber yard in this town. My propane company explained how i could bleed off propane from my master tank if I had to. In fact, they are coming out Tuesday to show me how. Isn't that nice of them ? Oh and having use propane for 5 years, I of course know about the necessary venting requirements of propane. Now in case some of you hate to see the word " wild caught " ( even on this forum ), let it be known that almost all species kept at one time was wild caught and to propell the hobby WAS wild caught ! Let's not get into a urination match here about my wild caught/finds. Bedsides, a lot of these critters that I have has been in my care for the better of 8 years. If you know of me by my endless trips to the southwest Texas area, while observing species with mostly photographing and history of the place now, we are also looking at property. And by the way, maybe the purchases of the heaters and such may not be to soon. Our weather is in for another round ( maybe not as bad though )of ice and really COLD starting Tuesday and running till sometime next week . What ? Did someone say find a house someplace else ? Nope ! My life dream has been to never live in a city if I can help it. Besides, hook a generator up in a residential place and see what happens with your " nice " neighbors when they hear your generator running to keep you in heat, cooking appliances, etc. LOL !

:I don't think so bud ! Evidently you didn't read my whole post. I SAID that there was no electric power for miles around and all businesses were shut down, some for days. There are still several thousand people without power in the township south of me. You do not know my values of trying to keep any animal from suffering even if they are wild caught/collected.:

I read your post well enough. I understand the situation, but my point is that maybe you could have at least made more of an effort (then you described in your post) to bring some of the animals inside for their protection. Even if the insurance company doesn't aprove.

I suffered through the exact same storm that you did. It was no where close to the storm of 2002. It seems that you have forgotten where Kansas sits. We have cold Winters here. If you have your collection in a old run-down building, maybe you should prepare in the Fall for the cold Winter that is to come. That seems the most sensible thing to do.

I sure hope that none of the snakes that I gave you perished in that storm.

You do not have to give up your collection. Just put a little work and funding into insulating your barn. Insulation is pretty cheap now days (you should appreciate that!) and you could do the work...No expenses there.

:i have been keeping for over 40 years now and am one of the head people trying to fight this proposed ban in Kansas. So what do ya think of that ?:

Wow...40 years! LOL...You must be some kind of pioneer!
As far as this Kansas ban...I have done everything possible short of standing outside the capital with signs. Emails, phone calls...I even got on the phone with Channel 9 news! Have I done well my humble and fearless leader?

Mike...Your herp skills are not unlike your grammer skills...sketchy and jumbled at best. Who are you always trying to impress? Too bad you have alienated yourself from everyone. Your desperate attempts at gaining respect through claiming "40 years" of experience have fallen upon deaf ears, just like before. It was fun while it lasted...

Sure I dont have very good things to say about you...But I still wish you the best. I hope that your family is doing well. I suppose that I'm derranged, but I am incapable of holding a grudge. I will likely see you in the Bend this year...Although we wont be doing any psychodic shopping in Ft. Davis...Thats for sure...
Anying else to say?

Deadhead, this is getting out of hand. Look, the guy said the weather conditions were unexpected. This means that he "did not expect it". Now that it has happened he is preparing for it better. Also, if he had brought in certain animals that were against his insurance carriers policy they could drop him from coverage. Bottom line is it was an enexpected event that took place and if he had been prepared for it he would have done better. It's not hard to understand his situation.

I can say that I truely care about your feelingss....
Thanks for you opinion...It has been thrown in the trash...

I'm sorry for doubting your analogy of the situation and unlike anyone else your ability to predict the weather and such. You could be of real use to those in need at predicting bad conditions. Maybe you need to move somewhere closer to the Indian Ocean to be of some use.

..................
very witty.
..................

your IP address ? I do. And i know who this is. But I would like to know what in the hell are you talking about ? I don't shop at Ft. Davis. never have let alone been up there in over 20 years. next is what animals have you ever given me ? I don't make it a habit of taking " charity cases in " unless someone is homeless or down on their luck. Let's see , is it SD ? No, he wouldn't know the basic skills of putting together a halfway intellegent wording of a post like this. Is it CW ? Well maybe because the mistake of alluding to my grammer and or pronunciation on another site one time. Could be the latter but oh ! I see that it may be someone else with the eastern Kansas or western Mo. Ip address. But I really know now don't I. And what may we see or ask that you have done in any worth while form of contribution to anything ? NONE ! At least you and I know who each other is even though you hide ( with very good reason ) behind your user alias and I don't. May I state the truth on your big lies and more of your hallucinations of past and maybe some of those wildlife problems that you got into ? NAH ! It;s not worth it.

So back at you with : this IS Mike Chambers at this end and i have no problems telling anybody who I am.

Oh yeh ! Just re-read this post Mr. greatfuldead and talking about skills in the written form or else ? I read what, 10 or so wrong words, spelling, and wrong use of the word or phrase. Of course i never claim to have that skill of perfect written grammer. Also there is just a little bit of a health problem on my end. Alienated myself ? Did it ever occur to people that some people just might want it that way. You know, to keep from having people like greatfuldead around them after they find out what people like this is. To tell ya the truth, I'm quite happy being a loner but don't let that thinking that i don't have friends fool you. I do but not people like you !

At my age, just another turn of the page of that book.

You actualy think that I am trying to hide my identity? You think that I care if you have my IP (although I doubt you do)? Mike...You never cease to amaze me. Honestly. You know very well who I am and it obviously did not sink in right away. And as far as making contributions to herpetology, your right. I have made very little in the grand scheme, but give me time. You truely are a character, Mike.
By the way...I was wrong...It was not Ft. Davis...It was Ft. Stockton that you screamed at me in a supermarket about getting Bush's baked beans (yum) instead of whatever the cheap brand was. Remember? I think that was when I realized who I was dealing with...LMAO...Bi-Polar much?

*For all others who read this...I am sorry for flaming here. Call it my age or my lack of maturity at the moment...I just cannot refuse a good lashing from ole (self-proclaimed) Chambo...

And to think I always figured the kingsnake.com forums could be used constructively to further herpetology as a science as well as a hobby. Man was I wrong. This is like a freaking soap opera. Who is going to let the other have the last word and finally end this immature bickering?
My reptile collection and research

and this will absolutely be my last post on " your " subject, I knew within the second post who you were. Now wether you choose to believe that or not, is up to you. Your dead giveaway was again the reference to my meaning and " skills " and your inability to spell and correct pronunciation or use of words in written form. Let me take you back to the movie of " Animal House " and one of the most famous lines of that movie. Where Dean Wormer said to Bluto > " FAT, DRUNK and STUPID IS NO WAY TO GO THROUGH LIFE SON ! < Now you brought this on yourself, didn't you. Oh and let's get the record straight : it wasn't a measly can of beans that caused the grist ( as you have told others ) , it was your actions and manners even before that had me not wanting to go on that adventure ( with you ) but would of caused problems for others if I did not. Don't believe that either ? Ask others. ( oh, I/you had forgot that all parties of that trip are no longer fans of you as well including other people we met on that trip ). Does that tell you anything ? Your BIG HEAD goes along with your BIG IDEA that you will make some kind of BIG dent in the herpetological field. NOT ! All I can say is > GRAND ALLUSIONS that goes with your ILLUSIONS of miss-GRANDIOSE of the reason that trip went wrong. Now back to anything other than this on this forum............