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I have a couple years experience maintaining North American hots, and was wondering what would be a good choice for a first elapid? What did most of you start out with?

Hi:

Keeping NA species does not even compare to even what could be called a beginners elapid. They are totally different beasts, being proficient in one does not mean it's transferable to the other. Anyway, Aspidelaps (Coral cobras) from Africa are a good species to start with. They are small and generally inoffensive. There is no antivenom produced but most people won't spend the time or $ to keep their own supply with species that are available. No way buy a Forest cobra, Cape cobra or Egyptian cobras, they are for advanced elapid keepers. Forget Mambas or any elapids from PNG for they are very hot and quite difficult to safely contain. You not only have to think about your safety but other that live with you too. Keep in mind you state & local laws regarding dangerous animals.

Good Luck,

Al
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Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

My first Elapid and the only one I keep right now is Naja kaouthia. They are a good choice to me because they are a very hardy and readily available captive(its antivenom is also readily available). They also aren't as lengthy as some of the other Naja subspecies, although there are occasional exceptions. Of course, as I'm sure you are aware they are somewhat aggressive and both move faster and have more toxic venom than say, a rattlesnake...Drew.

I am aware that keeping NA species is very differant from keeping elapids, I think most people are aware of that. It will probably be a couple more years before I evan get one, just wanted to find out what other people have started with.

do not even look at any of the larger African Naja (melanoleuca, nivea, haje, annulifera, nigricollis, etc.) as a first elapid...big, mean and nasty.

Some people have suggested some of the smaller Naja such as pallida (a spitter), because they are generally between the 3-5 foot range as adults (though I believe I've heard of larger), and most would rather spit than bite. Then again, there is the chance of developing an allergy which would put you in DEEP doggy doo if you were to take a bite...I'm certainly NOT suggesting a spitter as a first elapid, but it has been recommended in the past.

Monocle cobras (N. kaouthia) are probably the most common elapids in captivity, and I know more than a few people have entered the wonderful world of elapids with these snakes. Personally, I think it's a crapshoot...in general monocles are supposed to be pretty easy to work with (for an elapid), and not on the incredibly aggro side...however, there are those individual specimens that totally contradict the stereotype given to the species, so you better hope you don't get one of those.

Again, I'm just stating what other keepers have suggested, by NO MEANS am I saying a monocle is the best. I'm just highlighting some other potential candidates besides Aspidelaps (which probably is the best first elapid).

Here is an interesting one, since you say you have extensive work with NA hots. Death adders. Very viperlike in behavior, small in size, and can pretty much be exclusively worked with with a hook, and no hands on contact. The problem is antivenin. Death adders are INCREDIBLY toxic, so even though they are small in size and pretty easy to keep your fleshy parts out of strike range, IF you do make a mistake, you are screwed. Unless you have the permits and the funds to procure the CSL AV at around $1000 a vial. People make mistakes all the time with small N.A. hots like pigmys and massasaugas, so don't think for one second that just because it's small and viperlike you are out of danger. A death adder can end your life rather quickly without immediate administration of AV. If I'm not mistaken, Phobos has Acanthophis sp. I'm sure he would suggest against getting one without the proper AV available, as would I, but if you can find a reliable source (besides a zoo) that won't put other keepers in jeopardy, they could be an option.

Like I said, these are by NO MEANS my suggestion for a first elapid, just other possible candidates you can look at. I would highly suggest talking to keepers of any elapid you are actually interested in getting. If you want Aspidelaps, talk to some Aspidelaps keepers...so on and so on.

Hope some of this helped.

that you should find a reliable source of antivenin (not a zoo) for ANY exotic species you are or plan to keep. This is of grave importance, your life as well as the well-being of this hobby could depend on it. We need to show the world that we are self-governing and responsible, and all these media stories regarding bites and the subsequent frenzied search to procure antivenin do not help.

Your best bet would be to get the neccessary permits to import AV (a pain, but worth it), and get the AV BEFORE you get the hot. Having AV on site is much better than having to rely on someone else to bring it to you.

Happy New Year Psilocybe:

As of April last year from CWSL. Note the different prices mostly because the most bite are from Tiger & Brown snakes so they produce more. I went for the Poly in case I get really nuts and keep some Browns & Taipans. Remeber Wesss: Yoou can't enjoy your collection if kill you. Why keep something that's sole purpose in life is to kill you.

Please find prices below of monovalents:

Death Adder A/V @ AUD$1,150 ea
Taipan A/V @ AUD$1,742.86 ea
King Brown (Black snake) A/V @ AUD$1,481.43 ea
Brown snake A/V @ AUD$274.29 ea
Tiger snake A/V AUD$470.18 ea
Polyvalent snake (Australia & PNG) @AUD$1,907.14 each freight.
Freight is approx AUD$350-$400, to nearest International/Customs Airport

Al
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Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Happy new year right back at you Phobos... Hope all is starting out well in '05...

Thanks for posting the updated pricelist...wasn't CSL sold and privatized recently? I know there was a little scare when people thought they might stop producing some or all of their AV because it was so expensive to make...obviously they haven't stopped (whew!).

Yeah...been good so far including some very good luck that could have been very bad too. If you're interested in the story contact me by private email...

I don't think the Australian Gov't would not allow that, too many people would die. I think what you may be refering to is the Austrailian Reptile Park burnt to the ground KILLING all of their animals they used for venom production, thus stopping the A/V production. I know there is a real shortage of Death Adder Venom because they are having a hard time finding replacements.

BGF: If you're out there please chime in with the facts as you know them.
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Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Last I heard was that they (The Aust Reptile Park)were pretty well right for all the bits a pieces (Acanthophis and Taipans) they needed...I am unsure if they were going to kick off the Hydrophiids again though?

Wess,

If you want to get used to elapids..i would recommend a Mangrove Snake Boiga dendrophilia. They are fairly similar in general body shape etc to the elapids and they should'nt knock you off your perch if you where to make a mess of it. As for good starting elapids....I tell people (Here in Australia at least) to get a young Collett's snake Pseudechis colletti..not very toxic compared to other Australian Elapids and fairly quiet..they do however become food orientated and can get big..7 foot .

Otherwise in the States I would probably go for an Aspidelaps but there is no A/V.

Just a note on A/V one vial is not enough for most bites that I know of. Some bite of collegues I can think of needed 20 vials for treatment.

Also first Aid for a bite may be different...the Aussie bandage method (I think they call it over your way)

Further note on Death Adders Acanthophis...they are NOT GOOD FIRST ELAPIDS...they strike really quick and very toxic venom with big yields... I have never recommended them as first elapids here in Australia, also at $1100 a vial and needing 20 vials ....that 22 g that it out of date in a couple of years.

Also find out if the Florida A/v Bank is still running..that might be an option.

Regards,
Scott Eipper

The reason I mentioned Acanthophis in my post was because the original poster mentioned he had success keeping N.A. Crotalids...which have just as quick a strike if not quicker than Acanthophis. I would say anyone who could effectively work with any medium sized rattlesnake could easily maintain Acanthophis...

BUT...

Antivenin...that is what the key factor here is. People make mistakes all the time and get tagged by their pigmy rattler or whatever, so even an experienced keeper can flub up and get tagged by a little death adder...and that can spell big T-R-O-U-B-L-E. I would certainly advise against getting Acanthophis sp. if a reliable source of immediate AV cannot be located.

I realize that being in Oz, you folks have no viperids to "train" you for a death adder's behavior or speed of strike.

However, with the exception of the antivenin issue (which don't mistake me, is VERY important), I would say that Acanthophis would be a suitable first elapid for anyone with a good amount of experience with N.A. Crotalids or other similar viperids.

As I mentioned before, this is not a recommendation for ANYONE to get a death adder!

Hi Scott:

Thanks for the Reptile Park update. Mangrove snake is a good suggestion at an "elapid" alternate The Florida A/V Bank is now operated by the Metro Dade Fire Department in Miami. I am one of the organizers that is starting an A/V bank in the North Eastern USA.

It has been suggested that Neostigmine & Atropine are good for combating the effects of Death Adder Venom. Any comment is welcome.

Cheers!

Al Coritz
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Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

>>It has been suggested that Neostigmine & Atropine are good for combating the effects of Death Adder Venom. Any comment is welcome.

At the risk of being labelled extremely un-PC, I would say that if you are going to risk being bitten by something for which no antivenom is available, then you are better off doing it with a death adder than with many vipers.

Acanthophis kill through postsynaptic neurotoxicity, i.e., respiratory failure. This can be counteracted fairly effectively with the drugs you mentioned, and, failing that, with mechanical ventilation. Many people all over the world have been kept alive in that manner for days or even weeks and pulled through. This is not risk free, but, with a competent emergency medical team, should be manageable in most cases.

On the other hand, if you get biten by a viper and do get a massive dose of venom, and there is no a/v, then there is not a lot the doctors can do for you when your coagulation goes belly-up, your capillaries leak like sieves, and you start bleeding internally into your brain and elsewhere. That's before we even mention necrosis...

I am NOT encouraging anyone to keep *any* venomous snake without being sure that antivenom is available (and not just by parasitising the local zoo), but just thought I would throw this into the discussion.

A good starter elapid - depends, really, what you are aiming for. If you have your heart set on "typical" large elapids (cobras etc.), then there is probably not much point getting something you are not all thatitnerested in, like Acanthophis, which in any case gives you only a very limited idea of what working with a large elapid is like.

A large, lively, aggressive colubrid with a good feeding reflex, like a mangrove, bad-tempered false water cobra, coachwhip or a bad-tempered black-tailed cribo (Drymarchon) will give you better training than any viper or Acanthophis. Aspidelaps will give you some practice for *young* cobras, but do little to prepare you for an adult cobra - again, one of thelarge elapids will do that better. If you want to start out with something large (but not too lethal) straightaway, a Pseudechis would be a good choice, as suggested by Scott - P. porphyriacus in particular, though they are rarely available outside Australia.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

You are 100% correct in stating that Acanthophis sp. will do little to nothing to prepare on for "typical" elapids such as Naja, Dendroaspis, etc.

The reason I mentioned Acanthophis was because

1) He didn't state what elapids he was most interested in
and
2) He mentioned he was familiar with maintaining NA hots, and being that Acanthophis is obviously very viperlike, they shouldn't be much of a stretch from what he's used to.

Me personally, I LOVE death adders, can't wait to keep them one day, but I personally like to have access to AV JUST IN CASE an accident happens...ya never know

Then again, I love elapids in general and plan to keep specimens from many genera including the "typical" ones

I would think they would be a good substitute, and they hiss like a cobra!!!!

same goes for all other venomous, lg. boids, crocodilians and large monitor lizards.
Working with the species one wants is the only substitute for working with what one wants.
if a person takes the time to work with numerous (many many) species of harmless snakes you will be far better off in the long run.
It goes right up there with "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"
IF you have to ask, you are not ready to work with venomous species. Period.

Otherwise WW is completely right about the choices of nonvenomous first.
I certainly would not suggest someone that wants a cobra to go buy a black-tailed cribo for a few months then go get a cobra..
I also have learned to not assume anything on these computers (like someone having already worked with many species of such and such)

The Aussies do not need vipers to start before moving to elapids.
Elapids are not anymore dangerous than viperids, just different. They learn on elapids we generally don't.

I am very curious Scott, do you have any info on the case history of a Death adder bite that required 20 vials?

1 Vial should be sufficient along with the use of anticholinerases' I understand that severe or delayed treatment might require 2-3 vials more. But 20?
I hope I read that right?

nice to see some decent conversation and participants once again.
Happy New Year to all.
Taphillip
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Terry,

Email me.

Scott_Eipper@hotmail.com

First off I just wanna say thanks again for ALL the replies. secondly I would like to say I have a pretty good idea of the first elapid I want to start with, I just wanted to find out what other people have started with. and what would be reccomended. I think you represent to me what is so awfull in this hobby today = people that think they are better than other people because they are a curator at some zoo or small reptile park. That doesnt make you better, just luckier. Not all of us have a mentor available to us, some of us have to blaze our own trails. Most of the guys Ive seen that work in the zoos and such are very stingy with any kind of info about the animals they work with. Why are so many keepers as secretive as the animals they keep? Dont get me wrong I dont think that anyone who wants to keep exotic or dangerous animals should be able to keep them, in fact I think there should be more rules regulating this area of our hobby. I just dont want you pro's thinking im an amature because I dont have a phd, And I ask some basic questions. Hope I didnt hurt anyones feelings.

P.S. Just to let you know I have worked with many many harmless species, been working with snakes for about 15 years.

Actually, what is wrong with this hobby is people who have too much of an ego to take advice from people in a position to offer it.
If your skin wasn't so thin you would have been able to read the statements made by this "snotty curator" and learned something.
I offered up the sound advice that relates in simpler terms to...If one hasn't seen the type of venomous snake one would like to work with... or if that same one has not ever worked with that species extensively....learned some natural history, captive care requirements, antivenom requirements, snakebite protocols, proper caging, handling methods, restraint....etc etc etc then they have no buisiness owning said snake! It all goes back to "if you have to ask, you can't afford it"
This is a place to ask questions, and yours were answered by some pretty notable people in this hobby and profession. Even if you don't like what or how I said what I said, the mature individual would have maybe learned from the things that were stated. "Hmmmmm, maybe I should do some more research before even thinking of owning one..... type of thought instead of bash the zoo guy who is kind enough to take time (much like everyone else here) to answer a question from their perspective.
I'm sorry that you have had bad experience with snooty people. If you characterize me that way, then it would be easy to characterize you as the type that is getting an elapid ( or any venomous snake ) for all the wrong reasons.
So in essence, why ask us? You aren't listening anyway!

The answer to the age old question...."how should I go about getting into venomous snakes?".....the same answer as always, "from books and others with more experience...."
Have fun and stay safe!
Signed,
The snooty getting snootier every day curator of a little reptile park.
Taphillip
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Ha, not even close. Pines arent good for training you on any venomous. Avoiding their feeding response might be applicable but nothing else in their demeanor even comes close to an Elapid. Their threat stance is more like Crotalus then anything else.

Jeremy

I forgot I was supposed to list something nonvenomous that mimmics a cobra perfectly! Lets see what I can come up with on my second try!!! Ok, it must grow to at least 3ft long. It must "hood up", and stand the front 1/3 of its body ramrod straight when threatened. It also must hiss very loudly and try to intimidate its would be attacker. It also must be very slender and quick moving, however can be "hypnotized" by a woven basket.

Geee I can't think of ANYTHING thats even close to that. Thanks for pointing that out for me! I'd like to hear your guess since you are obviously such an expert. Or are you keeping your guess a secret so the "bad guess police" wont get ya?

Well, I am sorry you were so offended by my post. That was not the intention. I was merely trying to state the obvious so any new comer to our hobby didnt take your recomendation to heart.

Though it was obviously a joke (or so I hope) someone with lesser knowledge then us could have inturprited it the wrong way.

Again, I appologize for offending you.

Take care,
Jeremy

P.S Incase you are curious as to my credentials on the above mentioned subject, I currently keep 1.1 P.m.melanolucus, 1.0 P.m.lodingi, 2.2 N.pallida and 1.1 N.kaouthia. Not an expert but I know alittle about them

Don't flatter yourself. However, I do not appreciate being jumped on with both feet by some kid trying to prove themself. Your snide "holier than thou" attitude was uncalled for considering my *suggestion* was not intended to be taken as law. Even your pal taphillip, thought your comment was out of line. Check his post "why keep venomous" or something to that effect. His post was the only reason I even read your post. This will be my last reply in this thread, I have wasted enough of my time with the great and powerful Oz. Now hurry up and get back behind your curtain.

Re read the thread you reffernced and then read Terry's response to my Aspidelaps thread near the top. Trying to drag others into your personal beef with me is kind of petty.

Regards,
Jeremy

P.S last time I check being 26 made me an adult.

Hi all,

I re read my earlier post and found something misleadling and it should be cleared up...I do know of bites from Australian Elapids requiring many times the required dose of Antivenom....Hoplocephalus and Notechis envenomations come to mind. However I cannot recall an Acanthophis envenomation requiring more than 5 ampoules (This is still 5 times the prescribed dose) not 20.

Feeling somewhat silly,

Scott.