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Identify this snake...............

jlassiter Jan 08, 2005 04:37 PM

I have been collecting Great Plains Ratsnakes and Southern Plains Ratsnakes from the wild for nearly 20 years or more. These two little hatchlings do not resemble any ratsnake that I have caught or purchased. At first I believed them to be Emory but as I second thought I believed them to possibly be Slowenskii or Meahllmorum. They could possibly be a cross between Meahllmorum and Emoryi or Slowenskii.

BTW, these guys are at my local petshop who occasionly will ask me to identify tricky snakes and I was not unable to be positive on these.

What do you guys think?
-John Lassiter-

Replies (9)

jlassiter Jan 08, 2005 04:37 PM

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guttersnacks Jan 08, 2005 07:25 PM

I dont know why Im guessing if I really dont have an arguable reason, but Im looking at the babies and thinking Vulpina. Just a gut feeling/thing. I cant find any baby pix of Fox's, but just thought I'd throw it out there, they kinda remind of them.
Could be WAAAAAYY off, and Im prepared to burn for it.

-----
Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

jlassiter Jan 08, 2005 08:38 PM

I am not sure what species it is. I do know they are not Fox snakes, but thank you for the reply. I am undecided between pure Emory or Emory cross with Meahllmorum or Slowenskii.
I am doubting pure meahllmorum because of the checkerboard ventral and high blotch count. I am doubting pure Emory because there is no definite "spearpoint" on the head as emory has.
Or lastly it could not be pure Slowenskii because of the high blotch count.
Could it possibly be a cross or is it just pure Emoryi and I am not used to seeing them pure due to the fact I live in South Texas amongst the Meahllmorum?
Thanks,
John Lassiter

guttersnacks Jan 08, 2005 09:47 PM

I didnt realize there was that much of a subdivision in Emorys, after looking up the possible mix-in species, I have now learned a little more........
Good luck!
-----
Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

Terry Cox Jan 09, 2005 07:12 AM

>>I have been collecting Great Plains Ratsnakes and Southern Plains Ratsnakes from the wild for nearly 20 years or more. These two little hatchlings do not resemble any ratsnake that I have caught or purchased. At first I believed them to be Emory but as I second thought I believed them to possibly be Slowenskii or Meahllmorum. They could possibly be a cross between Meahllmorum and Emoryi or Slowenskii.
>>
>>BTW, these guys are at my local petshop who occasionly will ask me to identify tricky snakes and I was not unable to be positive on these.
>>
>>What do you guys think?
>>-John Lassiter-

John, thanks for posting. This raises some interesting questions and points. It also gives me a chance to talk about my snakes some more.

First, let me say that buying from a pet store leaves a lot to be desired, as far as I'm concerned. Do they ever know what they have for sure? You'll probably never know the locality of those snakes, and maybe not even the subspecies positively.

Secondly, since they came from a private breeder, I think you said, they could be anything. They sure don't look w/c. But the breeder did say they were "emoryi", correct? I would tend to lean towards, emoryi, unless we can show otherwise. But then the breeder may not distinguish bt. the northern "emoryi" and southern "meahllmorum" subspecies. So, it could have some meahllmorum in it too. BTW, the intergrade zone for emoryi and meahllmorum is huge. My guess, is it's likely an intergrade.

Third, the snake is very pale. It almost looks like it's hypomelanistic. I'm going to look at a couple of my snakes in comparison and tell you how I used them to come to my conclusions. Here is a pic of my Brazos Island male (meahllmorum) from s. TX. Notice the head pattern which is very similar to your snake's....

Your snake has a much larger number of blotches than the typical meahllmorum, however, and the ventral pattern is probably closer to emoryi too.

The next photo is of a hypo het corn X meahllmorum. Notice the more numerous blotches, than typical for meahllmorum, the large amt. of black around the blotches, and the typical meahllmorum head pattern. She also has a pretty busy ventral pattern. But her color is much darker than that on yours....

Your snake has very little black around the blotches, not typical of "slowinskii", I believe. All the characteristics point to an emoryi, or emoryi X meahllmorum cross, imo. It could very well be a snake from the very large intergradation zone bt. these two subspecies. Of course, other possibilities include crosses bt. subspecies by the breeder, or even hybrids bt. a guttatus complex snake and a common ratsnake. But I don't see any TX ratsnake characteristics in your babies.

One more thing is that these babies have a lot of contrast, very light ground color, and I believe are carrying one or more mutations, like hypomelanism, or even some others. I wouldn't trust just my instincts to make a project out of these, but might have them just for fun, if I thought they were beautiful enough. It's up to you.

What do you think of them? It's very hard to judge a snake from a picture. For one thing you can't see any behaviors or movement on the part of the snake. Other things might be important too, like your talk with the pet store person, who the breeder was, or even the cost of the animals. Anyway, good luck with them if you get them.

Hope I helped a little...TC
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

Terry Cox Jan 09, 2005 08:14 AM

John, I just noticed that South Mountains's hypo emoryi has an open "spearpoint", like your snakes. I don't work with P. g. emoryi much, so didn't realize that character was prevalent in emoryi also. Your snakes are darker than the hypo, but could be het for hypo, but I definitely feel they are emoryi now. Maybe they resulted from crossing a pair of het for hypo emoryi and the babies that didn't turn out hypo were sold off because it couldn't be determined if they were even het. Later...TC.

jlassiter Jan 09, 2005 11:58 AM

Yes,
Terry I spoke with Don Soderberg too about these and we came to the same conclusion as you and I. We would be safe to say that these are pure Emoryi. You see Terry, I live in South Texas and I have not really seen true, pure Emoryi. I have seen intergrades with Meahllmorum and pure Meahllmorum. I do not know if these little ones carry some sort of hypomelanistic gene but I think I will raise them and see. I have no true Emoryi in my collection. Maybe these too will be good for a cream project.
Thanks Terry,
John Lassiter

Terry Cox Jan 09, 2005 01:20 PM

>>Yes,
>>Terry I spoke with Don Soderberg too about these and we came to the same conclusion as you and I. We would be safe to say that these are pure Emoryi. You see Terry, I live in South Texas and I have not really seen true, pure Emoryi. I have seen intergrades with Meahllmorum and pure Meahllmorum. I do not know if these little ones carry some sort of hypomelanistic gene but I think I will raise them and see. I have no true Emoryi in my collection. Maybe these too will be good for a cream project.
>>Thanks Terry,
>>John Lassiter

John, if those snakes don't carry any mutations (hypo) then they are one of the prettiest emoryi that I've ever seen, natural. I would sure like to see what you find out about them. I think they would make great subjects for a creamsicle project too. Emoryi seems to have the right characteristics to make the creams the right color and pattern. Good luck...

TC

jlassiter Jan 09, 2005 01:42 PM

Terry,
I will definitely keep you informed with these. And yes I agree they are the nicest looking emoryi I have ever seen also. I hope they are a little something special about them.
John Lassiter

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