Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok guys, got my sermon done for tomorrow and still have some hot air left, so I have something to bring up. Let me use a type of Bullsnake as an example. There are a lot of Stillwater Bulls around, named from a place in Oklahoma where the founding parents were collected/found at a Rattlesnake Roundup. Now most see this as a locale animal. Here's my question--how long will the line keep producing strong offspring if no other specimens are introduced? How many generations will it take to get to a bent spine, bug eye, crummy color, etc., etc.? Now I am committed to maintaining locale purity but I have wondered is maintaining the locale worth producing inferior stock??? Many moons ago I bred African Cichlids, when they were a high dollar animal. We constantly had to introduce new stock or we witnessed deterioration in the types we were selling. And we would never sell a specimen that exhibited any sort of deformity no matter how expensive the fish was. We simply destroyed it so someone wouldn't breed it into pure stock. (Now I know Chinese aquaculturists did not believe in this--hence the great number of grotesgue carp/goldfish types that I've always viewed as feeder fish but others see as beauty--to each their own!!!) I know we have not been breeding long enough to know, but the Stillwater Bull, Texas Rat, and some of the kings might be the first to show us. Whenever I see an ad for a snake with a slight kink here or a twist there I cringe. Well that's about $.05. What say y'all?

.

Preacher,
1) agree on need to put down defective animals
2) agree we've got to keep an eye on inbreeding.

One way in which morph breeding is less risky than locale breeding is that a morph can be outcrossed to the most conceivably unrelated animal to produce hets that can then be bred back into the project with (theoretically) improved vigor yet a genotype consistent with the original goals.

Your Stillwater example raises questions I don't know the answers to: Are all the Stillwater bulls related to a single animal or pair of animals? Or is collecting still possible, so that new but locality-consistent animals can be introduced to the project?

If the latter, inbreeding shouldn't be a risk, it seems to me. Consider:

In a wild location, genetic diversity is sustained by movement of animals into and out of the location (otherwise all wild populations would be inbred and--in theory--would be showing the defects people worry about as a result of inbreeding. The fact that this is not the case strongly suggests that either:
a) inbreeding is occurring and doesn't lead to defects nearly so often as people worry it might,
or
b) that movement IS occurring, creating a small--perhaps tiny--but periodic introduction of new genes into a wild population.

To the extent b) is true, then so long as continued collecting is possible--as is the case in many alterna locales, for example--there should be plenty of genetic diversity to support a healthy locale project. And even if collecting is closed by recent events--habitat destruction, enforcement of park wildlife protection laws, whatever--so long as the larger locale group includes animals collected at different points in time, it probably includes considerable genetic diversity.

Thoughts, anyone?

Terry

Very logical and very well said.

Here is another thought I hesitate to interject because it reflects my professional bias. We need to be careful about comparisons between the wild and what happens in our snake rooms. Nature, a reflection of a greater entity's design than we can comprehend, has checks and balances in place to keep diversity within populations. I don't pretend to know how that works but I do know what I've experienced in my breeding mammals, birds, fish and reptiles.

Now, as to the Stillwaters I mentioned, I have been told that all the Stillwaters we have are decended from the one pair John Ginter. I hope that isn't true but--- Some breeders are starting to breed other stock into the Stillwaters and are receiving criticism over it. Time will tell.

Pat G-C

Inbreeding typically leads to what is known as inbreeding depression. Simply put this is a lowering of fitness and therefore survival. Gross morphological changes such as spinal kinks and eye deformities are most likely developmental irregularities caused by many factors. Two factors that definitely play a role in it IMO are incubation temperature and nutrition. Gerold Merker did some tests with vitamin supplementation and showed that eggs from female alterna supplemented with RepCal (I believe) had much higher hatch rates and fewer dead in the egg mortalities. I cannot remember if he saw fewer deformities. He published this in his Reptiles article on alterna. Maybe someone else remembers the issue and the specifics. Inbreeding seems to be the main excuse for poor husbandry.

>>Preacher,
>>1) agree on need to put down defective animals
>>2) agree we've got to keep an eye on inbreeding.
>>
>>One way in which morph breeding is less risky than locale breeding is that a morph can be outcrossed to the most conceivably unrelated animal to produce hets that can then be bred back into the project with (theoretically) improved vigor yet a genotype consistent with the original goals.
>>
>>Your Stillwater example raises questions I don't know the answers to: Are all the Stillwater bulls related to a single animal or pair of animals? Or is collecting still possible, so that new but locality-consistent animals can be introduced to the project?
>>
>>If the latter, inbreeding shouldn't be a risk, it seems to me. Consider:
>>
>>In a wild location, genetic diversity is sustained by movement of animals into and out of the location (otherwise all wild populations would be inbred and--in theory--would be showing the defects people worry about as a result of inbreeding. The fact that this is not the case strongly suggests that either:
>>a) inbreeding is occurring and doesn't lead to defects nearly so often as people worry it might,
>>or
>>b) that movement IS occurring, creating a small--perhaps tiny--but periodic introduction of new genes into a wild population.
>>
>>To the extent b) is true, then so long as continued collecting is possible--as is the case in many alterna locales, for example--there should be plenty of genetic diversity to support a healthy locale project. And even if collecting is closed by recent events--habitat destruction, enforcement of park wildlife protection laws, whatever--so long as the larger locale group includes animals collected at different points in time, it probably includes considerable genetic diversity.
>>
>>Thoughts, anyone?
>>
>>Terry
-----
Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Terry, lots of good stuff there. Let me just make a couple more comments.

Sometimes a locality can be quite small, or even completely separate from the main body of a taxon, like on an island for instance. I happen to like working on islands, heheh. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be any genetic diversity. I've never seen an island with examples of snake inbreeding causing abnormalities or anything. Not that you said otherwise, I just wanted to make that point. I don't know the exact critical number of individuals a population needs have to be healthy in the long run, but I've seen many very small populations that have done just fine for 20, 30, 40 yrs.

With that said, I would agree that there almost always is some influx of genes into a population from nearby populations. Two subspecies that intergrade, no matter how little, will share most of their genes. How the locality snake expresses itself morphologically is the reason most of us like the locales. I agree with your conclusions about diversity. It could be only one gene is different...enough to give a snake the appearance someone is looking for.

Good stuff....TC

With the hypo bulls I would assume you are refering to the Still Water Oklahoma locale. If so, inbreeding should not be too much of a problem since it should be easy enough to acquire a Still Water locality normal bull and produce hets by breeding it with the hypo founding stock. That way there would be no need to breed brother to sister and that sort of thing. Simply breed one of the hets back to one of the parent snakes to introduce new blood, and at the same time keep it locale specific.

Every problem has a solution. Sometimes we just have to dig deeper to get the satisfactory result.
If someone wants to create generic or even hybrid snakes it is their own business as far as I am concerned. But not having sufficient new blood in a line of locality specific snakes is rarely the case, and is certainly no reason to accept defeat and go in a different direction if that is not what you want to do.

The stillwater hypo bull is easy to acquire.

What about localities that are protected by laws, like those ocurring within TN or GA?

Or, what about localities that are difficult to obtain based on the ability to find them? (Central KY cave region pines)

I know you cannot help the laws, but are working to acquire the others. However, what faces an inbred locality morph who has no habitat, or is extinct in the wild? Oblivion? Or do you cross it with the most directly related population?

Localities such as the Outer Banks king or KY pine or KY corn are held sacred due to their uniqueness and availability to a wide spectrum of keepers. Yet they are still only colubrids in the big picture, potentially malleable and able to be homogenized into hybrid vigor via chromosomal continuity admist the chagrin of locale specific breeders. Ethics and possibility are locked in combat in the fighting ring of philosophy: dichotomies prescribed to divide or unite, depending on one's perspective.

And so one will be preserved, and another born due to our involvement with selective breeding that our consciences are needing.

Neil

Dingoblue, it should be remembered that I stated that acquiring new stock from a locale was rarely an impossible hurdle. By saying this I understand that there will always be exceptions such as the examples you gave. When legal issues are in the way it can become an obstacle that can not be breached usually.

However, to me, "difficult" is another story all together. The examples you gave about certain snakes being hard to find such as the cave area pine snakes of KY actually illustrates my point very well. If you want it bad enough you can usually make it happen. It might take years and it might take thousands of dollars of gas, and it might occupy every off day you have. But in the end, perseverence usually pays off. We have done that very thing with the population of pine snakes in that region, and now three years later we are in a position to make it a reality this coming year. I am now convinced that we are in the right location and that it will come together for us this spring. When it does, it will be worth all the effort that we have put into this project. Sometimes you must pay the price, but the reward is sweet.

I agree Phil. I am a Pit fan and I think what worries some of those serious Pit breeders is people are crossing Reds and White Sides into that locale and it's a good bet some will call them Red Hypo Stillwaters or White Sided Hypo Stillwaters and that is only half the truth. The locale would be tainted. I don't think there are any double homozygous locale animals? Come to think of it there probably are not many locale morphs period. I had offspring from a Creamsicle corn and a Reverse Okeetee in 04. I wouldn't even call those Creamsicle Okeetees and won't UNLESS they develop thick white borders on the blotches but it is well known that many refer to the name of that locale also as a look...a look just about identical to those locale specific snakes. I don't know of any other locale animals that have these wannabe clones but Corn people seem to get away with this to a degree. I often wonder hwo many generations of inbreeding is too many? That is another story in itself Tom Stevens

Hey Tom,
Check out South Mountain Reptiles (www.cornsnake.com). Soderburg already has some awesome Creamsicle (Okeetees) listed. And when I had Fluorescent Corns they looked exaxtly like his pictured Creamsicles with white borders around the red blotches.
And not to be argumenative but can we be so sure that spinal kinks or bug eyes are not somehow a result of inbreeding???? Maybe the snakes that get these anomolies are susceptable because of their breeding. Bottom line for me--the best I can do is try to obtain diverse stock. I have a passion for Sonoran Gophers. I have several individuals that have come either directly from Jason at Envy or through others that got them from him. I have also obtained several other specimens from what I have been told are not his stock. I hope that's true. This is at least an attempt to strengthen lines. I think that is the best we can do. I'm doing the same with So. Florida Kings although my good buddy Tom has made me antzy on this one of late. O well!!!!

Pat G-C

I am pretty sure the exact snake pictured on SMRs site was one I flipped over in person a few years back. I already swore no more Corns but that snake as a yearling drove me nuts. I emailed Don and offered him 100 bucks....then 200 hundred. He laughed at me and said he wouldn't sell it for 1000! It is why I made the batch of Creams X Reverse Okees this year. 1 person took the whole small clutch so I can see how they all turn out before I decide about doing that project again but that snake of Dons floored me. I have heard from 2 people who outcrossed Lucy TX rats and corrected the eye problem so in my opinion it is from inbreeding. But not all defects are, and also as Terry Dunham would remind me I should be saying only SOME of the bug eyes are that way from inbreeding, others may have got the defect from some other reason. On another note I know Jason outcrosses his morph projects and that is one of the reasons I support him so strongly. I have my 3 female normal Brooksi too make het for EVERYTHING. Hey...it can't hurt that's for sure?!?! I know my het Specks are from at least 2 different bloodlines too. I think when locale is not an issue outcrossing is a great idea in general. It seems too many people want morphs in quantity for the cash as opposed to putting good stock out there for the consumer. Shoot me a private email Pat NokturnelEclipse@aol.com misplaced the one you use most.... Tom Stevens

Great point Tom. I totally agree that sort of thing is going to happen when certain traits are the desired result and emphasis is placed on that above locality. I have noticed over all Pit keepers are more concerned with locality than most keepers of other colubrids. With corn snakes for example, it seems like almost a lost cause. There are a few of us out there that keep locality corn snakes though. We work with the relict population from south central KY. When we started this project a number of years ago we had the impression that being successful with our goal was going to be next to impossible. There were very few documented records for this population and the scant literature that was available gave us the impression that we were chasing a ghost. We devoted much time to this endeavor and in the end we not only tracked them down but were able to make many discoveries regarding this population of corn snakes. Since there was a paucity of information about them, my field partner Will Bird and I decided to document our research on these snakes and will be submitting this for consideration to be published soon. We will be including all meristical data as well as many natural history observations such as early emergence, last appearence for the year, blotch counts, field measurements, surface activity, habitat utilization, clutch size etc.. For a snake that was considered virtually non existent we have documented over 100 specimens in the field now. I guess I am digressing a bit, but my point was there are still numerous opportunities out there for those wishing to work with locality snakes. Early on we were able to put a captive breeding program together with these snakes that many told us were going to be impossible to find.

Excellent post, Phil. I'm glad you decided to digress. I love the field work you're doing. Maybe we can work together someday, maybe even next spring in s. Ohio. Take care...Terry.

That's great Phil. A very impressive effort on behalf of you guys. You know over the past few years I have mentioned to people that other projects similar to this should be happening by people who really claim to take locale specifics seriously. I will say it once again....that it seems some of these locale breeders are too quiet about their projects. It creates cliques and anti social type behavior as if you need to be part of their secret society to participate. I have even volunteered to take on projects I personally have little interest in just to help get the ball rolling as I think it seriously is a very good idea for the hobby in general. I have never received ANY backup and therefor shrug my shoulders and say oh well...whatever. It seems to be a case of being preached too on what should be....but you're on your own to make it happen. I think snake keepers may just be inspired to have a locale specific project or 2 in their collections if things were a little different. I also can see why some people complain about the morph people because they[ and even I myself] seem to advertise more heavily and make it more well known what they work with and how to get in on those snakes. Locale guys seem to keep things quieter with a more word of mouth thing going on. I am sure the profit a locale guy may see is much less than a morph breeder....but this is why I also suggested a group of sorts to meet a few times a year at some of the bigger shows. I am sure there has to be something like this allready.....but if that's the case not enough people know about it. That last comment is just a guess...but seeing I spend a good amount of time online a week and never hear about anything about it a conclusion that I've come too. Tom Stevens

Tom, I would say that you are definitely correct. There is a tendency for guys doing locale stuff to be a little more quiet about it and more to themselves. I don't know all the whys behind this but I could guess some of the reasons. I think to a degree, many morph guys are motivated by the financial aspect of the hobby. I don't mean this as a negative thing. I'm all for herpetoculture and the idea of guys breeding snakes and selling them. Its just that I do believe that many guys that are doing morphs are keeping a close eye on the market and buying snakes that they may see as having the potential of being financially rewarding. A lot of these same guys are more apt to spend time at reptile shows where they can network with others and probably spend a fair amount of time each day around their home or business where they spend a fair amount of time on the internet or phone communicating with others that have similar interests or that may be potential customers. A lot of locality guys for what ever reason have a tendency to lay low and detatch themselves from the main stream of the hobby. Many do tend to network among themselves though. During a good portion of the year many locality guys are spending a great deal of time in the field. This also tends to remove these guys from a lot of general conversation that is going on internet message boards such as this one on a regular basis. Sometimes guys that are doing field stuff are reluctant to talk much about their projects because they don't want to draw too much attention to them from the general herp public. In other words, if they are working on a population of animals within a small geographical area that could prove to be vulnerable, they may not want to bring unwanted attention from would be collectors. Another consideration would be guys like myself. I have no commercial interest in anything I do. I have turned down many offers to sell captive bred offspring of many of the snakes I produce. I have given away and donated untold numbers to zoo's, universities and fellow hobbyists but I refuse to accept cash for anything I produce. Part of this is I do not want to creat a perception of there being a conflict of interest in what I am doing here in the state.

I hear you loud and clear and know where you're coming from. Like you may have read, I don't have much interest in locale specifics BUT if it were to actually help for me to participate in some of those projects I would. Take Hogg Island Boas. I know some are getting angry because there are crosses now. I was going to get some to help keep a pure line going. I do not need to be told "yeah that's great and appreciated Tom...please do it!" but for a snake that I feel is vulnerable to be lost I thought it may be a good project. Honestly I have no experience breeding Boas so I turned my attention to colubrids and locale specifics. I know many people involved with colubrid breeding and have some experience myself. I look for encouragement and it only appears in the form of criticism. Why do I breed this n that??? and it made me so angry that now I actually have hybrids in my collection. I personally like the crazy colors and find them interesting. However it was the critics and thier whining that made me say to myself.......never mind, I will continue to do what I want and forget the locale people since I am not cool enough for thier club anyway. How can people help something in need when those who are allready working towards it are shutting newcomers out? I really like hearing from you, the way you explain things thoroughly and look at things from both sides is informing me much more than people who simply are not vocal about this topic. It's understandable that some things must be kept secret, meaning I don't want to have people cleaning out areas of sacred populations because a locale suddenly becomes popular. But in many cases the work may allready be done and locale specific snakes are available.....and if it is very important to some people to preserve them as best we can in captivity I just don't understand why we don't see more participation online. I think many snake keepers of all kinds would feel good about working on something like that. It seems beneficial to basically everything having to do with snakes, breeders, and the evironment[to a degree]. I don't expect you to have an answer Phil. I am just trying to get some people to speak up. Maybe locale breeders do not realise that the snake they care about so much could have their captive populations increase dramatically ya know what I mean? [the flip side is maybe they do not want that so the snake remains "rare"?]Honestly...I hear many of these hardcore guys specifically avoid this particular site. I think what may remedy this situation to a degree is a new forum....for locale specific talk only. However I enjoy talking about anything and everything having to do with Kingsnakes right here as well....I guess the ball is in someone elses court. Tom Stevens

Hey Tom,
I gotta tell you I appreciate the way you put it out there on the line!!! What you seek will never happen until there is agreement to be as honest as you are with your thoughts and your feelings. Yeah, it's uncomfortable at times and there are those who will take shots at you but man you've got my respect!!!! Keep it up Bro!!!

Pat G-C

I think a locale type forum would be neat myself. I would like to hear about projects that other people are involved with. It could also be a good place to learn from one another about various aspects such as different field techniques and methodology used to acquire stock. I think one reason that most hard core locale guys are not actively pursuing general snake keepers to help with their projects is they simply don't trust most people to have the same esteem for pure populations and fear that over time some folks may not maintain genetic integrity with the stock, yet may represent them as such. To a locale guy, this would be disasterous. I think that those that specialize in locality specific snakes choose to either collect their own or to procure stock only from a trusted source. A case in point. This past summer a guy here in town produced Kankakee county Illinois bull snakes and sold some of his surplus stock to a local pet shop. Meanwhile, another guy produced some generics from an unknown source and sold several babies to the same shop shortly there after. The shop keeper labeled the original bull snakes as Kankakee's but did not bother to separate the other bull snakes that he secured under a different name. The generic bulls were from an unknown origin but were clearly from the upper midwest and looked very similar to the Kankakees. Someone walking into the shop could very well assume that all are Kankakees when in reality, some are and some are not, and it would be virtually impossible to differentiate at this point. Locale herpers do not want to leave anything to chance and are very unlikely to bring anything in to their collection that they are not 100% sure of. I do wish that somehow locality specific snakes represented a larger part of whats out there. I wish that there could be more recruitment in getting more dedicated and skilled hobbyist involved with these types of projects, especially some younger guys. We need some new blood in here! Almost all the guys that I know that are in to locality are long time hobbyist that have been around a long time. It seems that anymore the hobby in general is attracting more and more people that are interested in exotics and morphs. I can certainly understand the attraction as I find all snakes interesting. I do wish that there would be an upsurge in interest from some of the younger guys in locality colubrids though.

Once again I hear ya Phil. I am a little tied up now but I am going to email you an idea I have asap.Thanks for posting........This forum seems to have a lot of good discussions lately. Tom Stevens

>>...Come to think of it there probably are not many locale morphs period.

actually, that depends on which of two points of view you accept, each of which was offered here recently:
1) that most morphs are the result of people hybridizing snakes to transfer an amel, for example, from one species or ssp to another
or
2) that most morphs are "pure"

To the extent that #2 (my argument) is true, AND to the extent that the morph originated in the wild, then those morphs SHOULD BE locality-specific animals. Example: the first amel red rat (see Bechtel's book and numerous other articles) came from a known site, so those would be considered a locale morph.
Example: the first two anery hondurans were wild caught but I'm not sure the collection site was known, so the potential was there for them to be locale-specific but i don't think that potential was achieved
Example: the amel honduran first appeared in captivity. Only if the collection site of the original wild-type parents (or grandparents, etc) were known and only if that line had been maintained (both very unlikely with imported animals) would their site of origination be known and thus give them the capability of being locality morphs.

Remember too it's not where the first homozygous animal came from, it's where its parents (which had to be hets) or prior generation came from. Theoretically, these morphs originate from a single HET, not a single homozygous animal. The homozgyous occurs only because the first het breeds and half of its babies are het, and eventually the original and one of its offspring, or a pair of the het offspring, or of THEIR offspring, accidentally meet and breed and produce a homozygous.

peace
terry

...and is the reason I'm going to put my response here

We can make all the arguments we want to discount needing locality specific snakes, but point is some people want them, and often have a very good reason. If there's enough people wanting locales we'll have them in the hobby and that'll be that.

I'm going to post a pic of my yearling male, Brazos Island ratsnake, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum (according to most recent taxonomic changes which I agree with). The point is that it is not only a locale, but a very small locale (an island) on the south coast of TX. The parents were from the same small locale, but w/c and unrelated otherwise. The babies from their pairing are siblings, of course, so would represent some inbreeding if bred with each other...

There are three ways to keep the "locality" and keep breeding these snakes. We can keep inbreeding the snakes, which wouldn't be too much of a problem, since the original pair will live well over ten yrs, I hope, and all the babies will be F2 generation. We will probably want to bring other snakes into the project, however. We can do that by purchasing more stock from w/c snakes others have, or we can go to Brazos Island and catch snakes of our own.

I love the locality because there are some beautiful snakes there and are uniquely adapted to their type of environment. Not all have the same appearance, however. We hope to bring out the best by selective breeding while maintaining the locality. We actually plan to search for snakes on Brazos Island to add to our colony in the future which will give us more options for genetic variation while maintaining the locale.

Now we could cross the Brazos Island rat out with other Southern Great Plains ratsnakes to get a more generic meahllmorum, but I believe we can and will keep this locality true and strong. If there's room for crosses, and intergrades, and even hybrids, don't forget the locality morphs. It's a broad hobby and many different preferences. Let's state our opinions, but not condem others for theirs.

Peace....TC

PS: Sorry for resorting to using a ratsnake for the example, but I'm just getting into kingsnakes, seriously, and don't have many to choose from at this time.

That is awesome Terry! A friend of mine in N.C. is working with Brazos Island rat snakes and they are indeed very interesting. It sems the more we look, the more we find that there are many folks out there working with some really neat locality snakes.

Not all have the same appearance, however. We hope to bring out the best by selective breeding

Terry,

Your project and Phil's are both very exciting. The appeal of such isolated populations and preserving the locale-specific animals is obvious, to me at least. And i sure admire the work Phil and friends put into tracking down the animals...now THOSE captures must be thrilling. (not sure how challenging the Brazos rat collecting is)

But let me ask you a question before someone asks it in a confrontational way:

when you say you'll "bring out the best" by selective breeding, what's "the best"? Prettiest? (obviously subjective) Most different from the mainland ssp? Or most characteristic of the isolated island population? (I'd probably favor this one, but it's dependent upon having gathered a large number of specimens and identifying the distinguishing characteristics--if this objective were pursued in the early stages of collection it could lead down an inappropriate path...that is to say, later collection might reveal that the collective group looks different from what was thought from the first few specimens, so the locale-breeding objective might be off-target.

An interesting theoretical issue. I'd like your thoughts, as well as Phil's on the KY red rats (specially interesting to me since i grew up in KY and used to marvel at the isolated fireld reports of guttata somewhere in my home state!)

peace
terry

>>Not all have the same appearance, however. We hope to bring out the best by selective breeding
>>
>>Terry,
>>
>>Your project and Phil's are both very exciting. The appeal of such isolated populations and preserving the locale-specific animals is obvious, to me at least. And i sure admire the work Phil and friends put into tracking down the animals...now THOSE captures must be thrilling. (not sure how challenging the Brazos rat collecting is)
>>
>>But let me ask you a question before someone asks it in a confrontational way:
>>
>>when you say you'll "bring out the best" by selective breeding, what's "the best"? Prettiest? (obviously subjective) Most different from the mainland ssp? Or most characteristic of the isolated island population? (I'd probably favor this one, but it's dependent upon having gathered a large number of specimens and identifying the distinguishing characteristics--if this objective were pursued in the early stages of collection it could lead down an inappropriate path...that is to say, later collection might reveal that the collective group looks different from what was thought from the first few specimens, so the locale-breeding objective might be off-target.
>>
>>An interesting theoretical issue. I'd like your thoughts, as well as Phil's on the KY red rats (specially interesting to me since i grew up in KY and used to marvel at the isolated fireld reports of guttata somewhere in my home state!)
>>
>>peace
>>terry

Terry, I'm glad you asked for a couple of reasons. Sometimes we don't always anticipate everyone's reactions or questions to something we write....

To give a little background info on the Brazos Island rat, let me say I only know one person who has collected any snakes there, and he has shown some really beautiful animals which he claims is pretty typical of the island. I have seen a handful of other pics from three or four herpers who have them, but in each case were darker and not as nicely patterned as the originals. I guess I don't know for sure which form is dominant on the island. That's one reason why I want to go there.

When I say I will select for the best (I didn't put that well), I really mean I want to start with the pretty, light colored form, with the interesting pattern. I hope to find that form to start over with, but if not, I'll try to breed for it. I don't mean I want to create anything new, just breed a form that is supposed to be common on the island. As stated before, I'd try to keep my stock as healthy as possible with mainly outcrossing. I don't breed much anyway.

Terry, here's something I believe. I've worked with quite a few species, although most haven't been North American, they have all been colubrids. It seems it species is capable of producing multiple color phases. Usually there's a light phase, dark phase, and an inbetween phase, as far as color tones go. Sometimes if you keep selecting only one phase you can weaken your stock, I truly believe that, but often you want the prettiest of the bunch to hold back. I would be happy if mine produced all the color phases in the same clutch, but I'm always going to do what is healthiest for the species. So, if selecting the lightest each time seems to weaken the B. I. rats, I'll stop doing that. We'll see.

As far as collecting on Brazos Island, I've never been there, I would have to check state laws (don't live in TX), and I'd have to find time from work and other things to go there. I think the island is fairly small and it shouldn't be hard to find. It is very far from most of us, so is a little difficult to get to. I'm not sure how hard it would be to find a ratsnake there, but I think there would be limited roads and the weather would play a big part. These snakes are mostly nocturnal, so it would depend on what time of year, etc. Probably not as difficult as some of Phil's projects, but still challenging. Any more detail than that and you'd have to email me.

Thanks for posting and glad I could answer w/o be argumentative.

TC

looks like from Mapquest it's a little more than 100 miles south of corpus cristi, just into the gulf of mexico where the texas and mexico borders meet that body of water. you were right: a hard place to get to.
terry

>>looks like from Mapquest it's a little more than 100 miles south of corpus cristi, just into the gulf of mexico where the texas and mexico borders meet that body of water. you were right: a hard place to get to.
>>terry

Ya, I spent over an hour searching last night myself. It's harder than I thought before. One tiny little road goes there from Brownsville.

TC

Terry, as for what we are doing, we are not breeding for any particular characteristic. There is a fair amount of variation with the snakes we work with but we have chose to work with what appeared to us to be typical specimens as to not create any sort of bias.

Nice Brazos Island Terry,
You know that "look" is seen in mainland Ratsnakes also close to Brazos Island. I really so not know if the taxonomy is the same, but the appearances are the same. This type is seen more on Brazos Island than bordering mainland. You and I know that snakes can swim. LOL!!

Nice snake Terry. I hope to get some soon.
-John Lassiter-

>>Nice Brazos Island Terry,
>>You know that "look" is seen in mainland Ratsnakes also close to Brazos Island. I really so not know if the taxonomy is the same, but the appearances are the same. This type is seen more on Brazos Island than bordering mainland. You and I know that snakes can swim. LOL!!
>>
>>Nice snake Terry. I hope to get some soon.
>>-John Lassiter-

Hi, John.

Yes, we know the photo I showed is a "look" that can be seen in the mainland pop. too. Brazos Island is part of the range of P. g. meahllmorum too, so the taxonomy doesn't change. Often the differences in a locality animal are slight, as you know, and can be hard to detect. Brazos Island is a locality though, just as Hebronville or Nueces or Black Gap, etc, is. It so happens that the "look" I'm looking for has only been seen in B. I. rats (see post I did in response to Terry D's). I tried to find a pic for you from Gus R's gallery, but he doesn't have his B. I. pics up anymore. I'll see if I can get permission to use his pics to show what I mean.

Also, it's not just the look of the locality snake. It can be, and is with me, other things that go with the snake. Brazos Island is a unique habitat, and I love the habitat almost more than the snakes. I can't wait to do some field work there. BTW, I think part of the island may be connected to the mainland too, so there may be no difference with snakes on the immediate mainland.

There are probably other morphological and physiological differences with this population of meahllmorum. I suspect they have a smaller length than the ave, the scalation may be different than ave, number and size of eggs could come into play, the head shape is somewhat different and noticeable in photos. I'm just starting to work with this form.

I think morphological differences manifest themselves as a result of adapting to differing environments. I believe the island is a very different environment and know several factors already that influence the natural history of these snakes. Let me just throw out a few factors to spark your interest. There's the climate... coastal, subtropical, subject to Gulf storms, humidity, easy winters (notwithstanding Gus's recent pics of snow there). The habitat...quite sandy, scrubby vegetation, changing a lot, subject to salt water pollution. In other words, a hard place to survive. The island is near the border with Mexico too, and we hardly know what genetic influence the Mexican meahllmorum have on these snakes.

John, Brazos Island is simply a location that is a good starting place for a project, that a person wants to be a locality project. I picked the Santa Rita mountains to be the location for my pyro project, simply because it's so close to where I want to live, and I like the snakes there the best (purely subjective). I have reasons for picking Brazos Island for one of my meahllmorums, but it doesn't have to be Brazos. I guess it really depends on the person investing in the project. There certainly hasn't been much response to the project from the beginnings 4 or 5 yrs. ago..just ask Gus. That's not the reason I'm getting into it.

I'll sure save a pair for you in a couple years when and if I breed the pair I have. Better yet, how 'bout I pick you up on my way down to Brownsville, and we can go look for them together? I know a couple other buds that probably would want to be in that party too, haha!

Terry

Terry,
All you stated is true. I have seen Gus Renfro's site and pics many times. Actaully some of the ones I sent to Dave Powell from Nueces Co. have the strong "H" shaped blotches as the Brazos Islanders do.
I am sure I will be here on your way to Brownsville. Just drop me an email. I would be glad to go with. I could show you some Nueces and Jim Wells Co. spots. I am also very interested in the local Splendida and Anulatta. (I had to throw that in since this is the Kingsnake Forum LOL!!!)
Thanks for your interest and input,
John Lassiter

I am not so sure there is any such thing as inbreeding depression in colubid snakes. If so what are the signs of inbreeding depression? I agree that animals need to be culled for deformities such as kinks and bug eyes but these sypmtoms are not from inbreeding.

Hi Pat, I tried to e-mail you a whole bunch of times, but somehow, I could not get thru.

Your question is a good one, and there is no clear cut answer.

As you know, I have been breeding reptiles for many years. As in many many, hahahahahahahahaha, since you were a boy, hahahahahahaha.

I believe I bred some kingsnakes when I knew you, well, I bred that line for thirty some odd years, that is, I inbred that line. No problems, as long as my husbandry was good. The reason I bring this up is, so many people blame genetics for kinks and such, when indeed it could have been poor husbandry. Remember, we are working with ectotherms and they are totally dependant on the RIGHT temps, at the RIGHT time. Its very easy to blame anything but us, afterall, we are trying so hard and do not want bad things to happen.

As you may know, I have started many lines of snakes and lizards, some of these lines were started from one animal(albino cal kings) to as few as a pair or trio(many of the monitors) I often inbred them for many many generations, I have yet to see genetics cause a problem.

Over the many years, I have had the chance to talk to many biologists about this, of course I have heard all sorts of things, going across the board. But one fella set me down and explained it this way. He said, some populations are not heterzygous based. That is, they are naturally inbred and do not contain a dominate and recessive(good and bad) type genes. He called these populations, homozygous populations. In a sense, they have been purifyied thru inbreeding.

With this in mind, genetic bottlenecking does occur. But it may take a thousand generations or more. Many more. Remember, the lifespan of species, can be very long. Human life, is very short by comparision. Or it could be one generation, depends on what you started with.

He also explained, that more problems occur when you outbreed these homozygous populations, then inbreed those offspring. In your mind, you think your strengthening the population, but instead, your introducing delerious recessive genes. Which when inbred, can be expressed.

At times I get a little fedup with the naivity of people, for instance, some think when breeding and crossing and hybridizing reptiles, they are making new things and colors, etc. But in reality, they are only taking whats already been done before and expressing it. After all, they are only genes that have been used before, or they would not be there. Remember, these reptiles occured when the plates collided, when uplifts occured, thru ice ages and back and forth. So many things had a chance to occur.

After all that, the answer is very simple and uncomplicated, if you do not like crossing(thats what outbreeding is) then either do not worry about it, or do not breed them. Remember, nature does not worry about it. If something bad happens, its quickly erased. Then started over.

Anyhow, nice talking to ya, Cheers FR

Thanks for the input. I think this is going to give a lot of people food for thought,great post! Thanks FR Tom Stevens

I agree Tom,
FR,
That was a great post. Glad to see you pop up here and give some insight. Keep it coming. It looks like we all have something to learn from that point of view.
Thanks,
John Lassiter

this year i had afew trays of corn snake eggs only one strain had kinked babys in the same (non-regulated)incubation room though they did hatch a lil later than the rest. i dont remember shelf level . still dont think its genetic and the pair was unrelated. just an example for science....Chris

I think the whole inbreeding argument to be over rated also.

At times I get a little fedup with the naivity of people, for instance, some think when breeding and crossing and hybridizing reptiles, they are making new things and colors, etc. But in reality, they are only taking whats already been done before and expressing it. After all, they are only genes that have been used before, or they would not be there. Remember, these reptiles occured when the plates collided, when uplifts occured, thru ice ages and back and forth. So many things had a chance to occur.
>>
>> After all that, the answer is very simple and uncomplicated, if you do not like crossing (thats what outbreeding is) then either do not worry about it, or do not breed them. Remember, nature does not worry about it. If something bad happens, its quickly erased. Then started over.

Great post, many insights to consider and one particularly pertinent point i'd like to elaborate on:

That's your point that all these genes existed over vast periods of time, and may have interacted in different ways with each other in the distant past.

What we're now dealing with is the incredible outcome of those periods through "uplifts and ice ages" and all that. I find that natural process incredible, and that's why i said in an earlier post that each pure animal--wild type or morph--can be viewed as a "jewel", as a representative of the way nature has sorted itself out at this point in time. I would take issue with your idea that "crossing...is what outbreeding is". There's a huge diff in outbreeding two specimens of the same subspecies--staying WITHIN the character of the vast genetic code that has sorted itself into a subspecies at this point in time--and in "crossing" a Lampropeltis to a Pituophis or Getula, don't you think? I think it's very important not to lump outbreeding and intergrades and hybridizing into a single issue.

Because in 20 minutes in a breeding cage we can undo all that you've described that's taken place over all those eons, we can create specimens that can never again revert to those pure types that took so many hundreds of thousands of years for evolutionary processes to create. You're right, we're just looking at the results at one incredibly tiny point in time on a vast continuum. I just can't make myself comfortable with the idea that it's a good thing to undo all of that. And ethically I feel obliged to speak out if i think something harmful's being done. I agree people have the right to do it. I just want to make sure they realize what an awesome process they're so disdainfully terminating when they hybridize. Does that make any sense? Maybe someone else can grasp what i'm trying to say and say it better.

peace
terry

but I think its important to remember that inbreeding under natural conditions is different from under captive conditions. Some level of inbreeding is required for evolution to occur but the main ingreadient remains natural selection no inbreeding. Also in the wild we might have relatively homozigus populations but they are generall much larger than that found in any collection. 1% diversity over a population of 100,000 still leave room for evolutionary potential. This wouldn't be the case in a captive populatin of 3.6 individuals.

Yo Frank!!!!
Glad you came on. 80% of all I know about keeping, collecting, and breeding I learned from you in the field, in our livingrooms, in our snake rooms, and at the shop. And here, 40 years later I'm still able to learn from you. Thanks!!! We were still running into each other when you started breeding the kings. In fact, my first breeders included a coastal banded we caught on a trip out together! Honestly I'm glad to hear they went thirty years without anomolies. My concerns really come from 15 years of breeding Rift Lake Cichlids from Malawi and Tanganyika. The results of inbreeding those guys has resulted in a plethora of dull, nondescript types available in the hobby. Fish must be significantly different from herps!!! Thanks again for the great post and good to hear you have not forgotten your fat friend/pupil!!!

Pat

First what we are all talking about is mixing locale specific animals not producing a hybrid. A hybrid is in fact a cross between two different species or sub species of animals. Further a hybrid is not produced when animals cross some imaginary line where an animal from one valley or area crosses over and breeds with an animal from several miles down the road. A much different and much more serious problem in the hobby than mixing of locales for convenience, color or pattern results.

Hybridization is a really troublesome practice that many others and myself have serious problems with. My stand on the practice is pretty simple and that is if I know a breeder has produced hybrids, I will not do business with them period.

With that said, I watch with a lot of interest the comments made in the above posts, most were in my opinion founded in good reasonable thought processes. From where I come from is that vigor within any animal is expressed when an animal is able to feed, grow, reproduce and repeat the process over and over in the normal scheme of things. If an animal expresses a characteristics that are not favorable to performing all the above tasks in the wild it is weeded out over time. In captivity we give this natural process a little help, LOL. Not sometimes to the benefit of the animals sometimes. When you repeatedly in-breed animals you run the probability of two things happening, the good traits for which you seek will be manifested and additionally any defects can also be manifested more intensely than in a normal colony in the wild where new genetic material is added from time to time.

Can you get away with in-breeding animals for extended periods of time without repercussions, of course it is possible. But and that is a big but, why take the chance, I agree that it is easier to constantly in-breed, but we have all seen the results of some of the problems it can cause over a period of time. It takes a little more work and a lot more time to produce animals with genetic diversity but it can and in my opinion should be done.

Examples of genetic inbreeding problems are probably best exhibited by the problems with the bulbous eyes of the leucistic Texas Rats. A problem that usually goes away with the simple process of bringing in new genes thru the use of hets. A 5 to 6 year process but it sure fixes the problem.

With that said I would state the following is where I come from on this question, it all depends on the individual goals of a keeper to get the right answer. Every keeper has to answer for themselves what they are wanting out of the hobby.

If you are wanting to produce locales specific animals than by all means get as large a group of animals from that locale, keep good records and produce the traits within that group that you are most interested in.

If you are wanting to produce color morphs such as albinos, reds or hypos - whatever then selectively breed your animals for that result again keeping good records and produce viable healthy offspring in the process. Will some inbreeding be required to get a certain result, quite possibly it will, but when controlled using time proven genetic theory it should not be a problem.

I have produced color morphs for years and most of them come from original founding animals and in the beginning most were related, but with the use of out-breeding our morphs are nearly as genetically diverse as our other animals. Currently we are working with 6 different LOCALE specific color morphs in bulls( albino, anthy and hypo for example). I think it is a pretty neat concept. It is something new for us and is the next step for us as keepers. But we are following our same rules with them, ie bringing in new genetic material; producing hets and then bringing the traits back out in the offspring.

Mixing of different locale animals produces all kinds of interesting color and patterns for us to work with and while the offspring of say a lubbock red and a crumby red is not a locale specific animal it should be pretty awesome looking and I personally have not problem with it as long as it is represented as a beautiful red bull that is a color morph.

For some locale is not important, to some color morphs are disgusting. To each his/her own I guess. To me I like all of them and only wish I was younger and had more snake house space so I could work with more of the options.

Just the thought of a broke down keeper, trying to do the best he can. LOL

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

Heya, John.

Y'aint broke down. Ya just gettin' older, like me, heheh. We do get a little crankety from time to time tho', eh?

I like your thoughts. Why be tied down to just locale specific or just morphs? I like all of these too. I get locale specific when I can, but also produce some morphs, like amel. and hypo, when I can. They're all great. I don't see why you can't produce locale and morphs from the same basic stock too. That's our plan with most of our stock.

Take care..til later...TC.

"My stand on the practice is pretty simple and that is if I know a breeder has produced hybrids, I will not do business with them period."

That is the kind of hard line stance that frankly sickens me. You disagree with a practise and allow it to interfer with your ability to judge aspects of people's charactor that matter. I'm sure there are local breeders out there that don't honestly represent there animals or care well for them and then there are those who work with some generic some locals and some hybrids who take honestly represent their stock, take great care of there stock and customers.

BTW speaking of honestly representing things do you really think the locality info on Stillwater Hypo Bull cuts it?

Some,if not all the "problems"you mention relating to inbreeding COULD be caused by several other factors.For example I have a temp-kinked snow brooks that is a fat and healthy female.She eats and craps like a perfect champ.I would not sell her as any type of breeder,but having her I would not be discouraged to attempt it considering the placement,size and angles of the deformity.While some may euthinize such an animal immediately,few can argue that she is not a healthy animal to this point.....
And as far as locality goes...I have bred locality milks for many many years now.The original milk breeders were ALL locality nuts.There were numerous reasons(including status) ranging from a more predictable pattern/color(in NA milks that have quite a range limiting the outcome of offspring made them easier to place)to the possibilities of "intentionally"breeding relatives in hopes of gleaning out a new morph($$).I like to think it more accepted that we can each breed exactly what we want and just let the marketplace determine "value".But it also helps that "regular"stuff is so cheap now that anyone can afford what used to be NICE stuff.Can anyone else remember when the albino corns were $500ea??