Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does this belly pattern look familiar to any of you experts?

Thanks In Advance,
Chris =)

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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

Photo #2

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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

Photo #3

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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

And a quick head shot...

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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

Okay...I was reading up on a few milksnakes, and one description really stands out -- New Mexico Milksnake.

According to the link I found, it describes the celaenops as having a black head sometimes with scattered red flecks. You can't see it in the photo, but he has a clearly small red fleck on his nose. I noticed this BEFORE I found the online description, so I'm not dreaming it up. LOL =)

Calaenops also have between 17 - 25 triad bands, with 21 being the average. My guy has 21 from neck to vent, so we're still on track.

Calaenops have white rings 1.5 - 3 scales wide. My guy's white rings are 3 wide. They also have red bands 2 - 5 scales wide. My guy's red bands are about 5 - 6. A little high maybe.

The white carries over uninterrupted to the belly. So does my guy's white.

Here's where I get a little stumped, though. The description states "the red rings are bordered on the edges of the ventrals by black pigment producing a central light area, which in many specimens is invaded by black". I'm not really sure what this means, but it sounds right...right?

It's the red fleck on his nose that really sells me. Is this normal for many species, or is it unique to New Mexicans? Does New Mexico Milksnake sound right for this guy?

Any opinions would be WONDERFUL! =)

Chris =)

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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

it is a hybrid of some kind.

Here is a picture of a wild caught snake. I have seen well over 100 wild caught new mexico milks over the years. I did not personally catch all of them. Just a few. I have also hatched out at least 100 or so over the years. Never have I seen a head so black. Usually more white then red on the head. Also there is usually quite a bit of red or orange surrounding the pupil. Head shape just doe's not look right to me to be a new mexico milk..... Ric Blair

Oh, I agree! What I meant is...I finally figured out the mystery "mutt" species. I'm pretty sure he's a Pueblan cross. I just don't know with what. =)

Chris =)
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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

enjoy.

This is a picture of one of the bellies. They can come with the bands continuing all the way aroung the belly. Pure white bellies. Sometimes a little checkering. Another thing is the widows peak on the back of the head (black area), not somthing I have obsevered that I can remember. They are quite variable even from one locale. But that snake just doe's not fit the my idea of a new mexico milk. Ric Blair

Hmm...One down; several more to go. At least I'm narrowing it down a bit. LOL =)

Chris =)
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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

"Hybridizers" will use albino Nelsons to cross into Pueblans to get the albino gene, and this snake looks like a Nelson X Pueblan to me, but i'm by no means an expert on hybrids.

Wayne Sanders

Ah HA! Now we're onto something! Since visual identification didn't work, how about probabilities?

We've established that Pueblans are often bred into Nelsoni...so what other subspecies is the Pueblan normally crossed into?

Also...

With all this talk lately of seller misidentification, maybe we should go that route. If the original sire/dam were field collected specimens...what subspecies is most often/easily confused with the Pueblan? (Both locality and looks)

I think these two questions alone will yield some interesting ideas.

Thank You All Again,
Chris =)
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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

None that I know of. Pueblans are a stand alone snake.

Wayne

Yeah. That's kinda what I thought. I'm starting to lean toward a Pueblan/Nelsoni cross. I stumbled onto a partial belly photo of an Albino Nelsoni, and the belly pattern (particularly in the red) looks nearly identical.

Of course, I'll need to see more belly photos of Pueblan x Nelsonis to be sure.

Thanks,
Chris
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"I don't know about you...but I find comfort in that." -- Cowboy

Finally.

Sire and Dam were Pueblan x Nelsoni and siblings.
Both parents showed strong Pueblan influence and it was not known they were crosses (much less related).
The clutch consisted of Pueblan looking animals as well as a stand out animal (this one) that had a strong Nelsoni influence which was thought to be just a really nice looking Pueblan.

This one is a Peublan x Nelsoni however it is not known if the reason for the original cross was for the albino gene.