Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know evil is a strong term, but this girl snake is just a biting machine. Her mate is calm and sweet, never any trouble to handle. The female, though beautiful, goes totally spastic whenever I attempt to remove her from the cage. I use a hook (she's gotten me once before), but she still flails about frantically with her mouth open just trying to get a mouthfull of me. Picture a fire hose with teeth thrashing about! Makes cage cleaning a real challenge! She's really a lovely looking snake, but I do have a concern that her temperament may be passed on to her offspring. What is your experience with breeding mild mannered snakes with "difficult" mates? I know juvi BRBs can be a little snappy, and I'd hoped that she would grow out of it. She's nearly 3 now and at least 4 ft long (hard to measure with all that thrashing). Any chance she'll mellow out? Suggestions? She's healthy, eats very well, temps around 82 for the hot spot in the cage. Just bitey as all get out. I hate to go for the gloves, but I also hate getting bit if I can avoid it.

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Lora

Lora,
...Has this snake been acting like this since it was little?
Jeff

>>I know evil is a strong term, but this girl snake is just a biting machine. Her mate is calm and sweet, never any trouble to handle. The female, though beautiful, goes totally spastic whenever I attempt to remove her from the cage. I use a hook (she's gotten me once before), but she still flails about frantically with her mouth open just trying to get a mouthfull of me. Picture a fire hose with teeth thrashing about! Makes cage cleaning a real challenge! She's really a lovely looking snake, but I do have a concern that her temperament may be passed on to her offspring. What is your experience with breeding mild mannered snakes with "difficult" mates? I know juvi BRBs can be a little snappy, and I'd hoped that she would grow out of it. She's nearly 3 now and at least 4 ft long (hard to measure with all that thrashing). Any chance she'll mellow out? Suggestions? She's healthy, eats very well, temps around 82 for the hot spot in the cage. Just bitey as all get out. I hate to go for the gloves, but I also hate getting bit if I can avoid it.
>>
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>>Lora

I purchased the snake as an 8 month old and even then she was more defensive than the male. The bite I referred to before was about 4 months after I got her, while I was reaching in to remove her water dish. She was slower to switch to f/t mice (she preferred live for about 4 months after I had the male switched to f/t). The male switched over within 2 feedings. The previous owner fed live exclusivly and stated that he had never been bitten by the snakes, but didn't handle them. She is defensive in the cage, but a real handful when out. She can be somewhat of a timid feeder at times, so I try not to disturb her too much. Unfortunately due to her behavior, I don't like to handle her much (though to be honest, I usually only handle the snakes on cleaning day about once a week). The behavior seems defensive to me, not like feeding behavior. She's not grabbing and wrapping, just rapid open mouthed strikes and attempting to escape.
Ideas?
Here's a pic of her mate- eventually.

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Lora

Lora,
The firehose with teeth image is a good one! Your female is, in my opinion, a sub-adult who has not yet lost her yearling boa defensiveness. I'm guessing she was CB? I don't think you can calm her down without getting bit. This is what I would do:
-don't use the snake hook or gloves.
-take her from her cage during the day when she is sleeping, don't be hesitant with her; pick her up smoothly and quickly.
-if she thrashes around, let her, she will wear herself out fairly quickly. If she bites, try not to react (easy to say, I know), like you said, they are defensive bites and if you don't jerk away, won't hurt very much (I think the worse thing about getting bit is the anticipation of it happening).
-handle her 3-4 times a week. My BRB's never sit quietly when being held; they're always moving about, don't restrict her movements just control them gently.
I think the key is to be confident with your snake and exude good will and harmless energy, sounds crazy I know.
Good luck with her and she is very pretty.
Paul

Lora,
....Paul's advice is exactly right. You have actually reinforced the snake's bad behavior by staying out of it's face when it is striking. It has learned that striking will make you get out of it's way. The snake could have been easily tamed when it was smaller but it can still be tamed. If you do not get it tamed soon it will grow larger and it's bites will be more painful and it will be harder to tame. If you are afraid of being bitten by it you will not be able to confidently handle it and tame it. Get over your fear and handle the snake with authority. All BRBs can be tamed through frequent confident handling. I have had freshly imported ones that were probably much meaner than your snake and were very much larger and I tamed them all by handling them. I did get bitten a few times by most of them but the bites will only bleed for a little while and they will heal within a few days.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>Lora,
>>The firehose with teeth image is a good one! Your female is, in my opinion, a sub-adult who has not yet lost her yearling boa defensiveness. I'm guessing she was CB? I don't think you can calm her down without getting bit. This is what I would do:
>>-don't use the snake hook or gloves.
>>-take her from her cage during the day when she is sleeping, don't be hesitant with her; pick her up smoothly and quickly.
>>-if she thrashes around, let her, she will wear herself out fairly quickly. If she bites, try not to react (easy to say, I know), like you said, they are defensive bites and if you don't jerk away, won't hurt very much (I think the worse thing about getting bit is the anticipation of it happening).
>>-handle her 3-4 times a week. My BRB's never sit quietly when being held; they're always moving about, don't restrict her movements just control them gently.
>>I think the key is to be confident with your snake and exude good will and harmless energy, sounds crazy I know.
>>Good luck with her and she is very pretty.
>>Paul

I'm confused about the no gloves thing.
I wear gloves when handling maybe 90% of the time.
I have some snakes that just cant be trusted, and to handle without gloves to me is foolish. Once I get a snake controlled, and they are relaxed, I will slip the gloves off.
Why risk being bitten, by a snake that can do some real damage, and the drop them?
I normally post in the Burmese forums, or caging forums. But have been visiting here lately.
Just my .02
I have a JCP that is full grown, and he can be hornery at times. His bite can do some damage. My heavy leather gloves are a must. A crushed finger hurts.
I used to wear gloves with my BRBs though.but they are too wiggly to get a grip on with heavy gloves. And also, they have never tried to bite.So I gave up.
The one snakes I dont wear gloves with...my burms. All are nicely calm.
Guys...its easy to give advice to someone that has a biting machine, and tell em not to wear gloves. But do you think they will really handle the snake if they fear getting bit?
My advice...Wear the gloves, and let your snake go to town on em. Sooner or later the snake gives up, and you wont be bitten up. A pair of heavy, but very soft leather gloves works best for me.

Burmaboy,
....I have been bitten by a bunch of snakes. Except for two venomous ones and a big Burm none of them did any damage. The only bites that REALLY hurt were the Burm which was 12 feet long and a 9 foot Anaconda that bit and squeezed and would not let go. I hunted snakes extensively when I was young and got bitten on a daily basis. I have been breeding boids for some time and have produced over a thousand of them. Many of them bite like crazy for the first week or two. I just let little snakes bite me and they soon learn that biting does not get me to leave them alone and they stop biting. Bigger snakes occasionally bite when surprised or when they mistake me for food. Bites from snakes that are less than 6 feet long are no big deal. Most snake bites leave a bunch of pinprick like holes which heal very quickly. A few bites result in cuts and tears which hurt a little more but will also heal quickly. Bites usually bleed some and if the snake is more than 4 feet long it sometimes requires a couple minutes pressure on the bite to stop the bleeding. The blood loss is insignificant. One papertowel almost always is enough to clean up the blood. I am not afraid of being bitten by any of my snakes except my adult Surinam Redtails. I handle all of my snakes like I am not worried about being bitten and that is what keeps them tame. Gloves greatly reduce the enjoyment of handling snakes. I cannot imagine wearing them ever to handle snakes. Much less 90% of the time. If your Burms are over 10 feet long their bite can be serious and gloves will only protect your hands.
Jeff

>>I'm confused about the no gloves thing.
>>I wear gloves when handling maybe 90% of the time.
>>I have some snakes that just cant be trusted, and to handle without gloves to me is foolish. Once I get a snake controlled, and they are relaxed, I will slip the gloves off.
>>Why risk being bitten, by a snake that can do some real damage, and the drop them?
>>I normally post in the Burmese forums, or caging forums. But have been visiting here lately.
>>Just my .02
>>I have a JCP that is full grown, and he can be hornery at times. His bite can do some damage. My heavy leather gloves are a must. A crushed finger hurts.
>>I used to wear gloves with my BRBs though.but they are too wiggly to get a grip on with heavy gloves. And also, they have never tried to bite.So I gave up.
>>The one snakes I dont wear gloves with...my burms. All are nicely calm.
>>Guys...its easy to give advice to someone that has a biting machine, and tell em not to wear gloves. But do you think they will really handle the snake if they fear getting bit?
>>My advice...Wear the gloves, and let your snake go to town on em. Sooner or later the snake gives up, and you wont be bitten up. A pair of heavy, but very soft leather gloves works best for me.

Oddly, I only trust my burms, and rainbow boa when handling without gloves.
I have a full adult JCP who nailed me, and did lots of damage.My entire hand was black and blue...and I bled for quite a while.
I also take blood thinners, so a bite for me is defintitely more than one paper towel's worth.
And as I stated, once I get the snake out, I usually remove the glove, or gloves depending on if I'm wearing both.
I think my concern would be, is getting tagged by suprise, and dropping the snake.Or jerking my hand away, and breaking a tooth.
If you saw my hands, you'd know right away, that the cuts of a bite should be the least of my concerns.
They are a mess.Bloody, and cut, and mangled.One night I was bitten repeatedly by a big dumeril's boa. And did'nt even know it,until he was sorta hanging on me.So my tender hands are truly not an issue.
I just feel, why bleed if not neccesary. And in the case of someone that has an "evil" snake...
Maybe gloves are the way to go until one feels more comfortable.
Then at least the snake gets handled.
Besides,I know I'll be bitten repeatedly, cuz I'm so tasty!...lol
And you mentioned that wearing gloves is like wearing...
In this day and age we should be wearing...
Does'nt mean we have to like it!
The gloves I mean.
That's what this forum is for Jeff...we both give our ideas, and the reader uses them as they see fit.Gleaning a little bit of knowledge from each post.
We maybe disagree about the gloves, but we both agree the snake needs to be handled.

I wear gloves as currently i only have emerald tree boas and amazon tree boas. the amazons get the glove once or twice then leave me alone and i take the gloves off. the emeralds though i might as well be using chainmill, they dont bite often but when they do they go right through the leather and i bleed like mad. Darn those long teeth.

i do agree though to just get in there and get the job done, eventually it works. i dont have brb's yet though they are my next snake to add to my life. such amazing animals. first i have to get out of canada. lol

Chuck
www.almightyarboreals.com

also is there a forum for just rainbow boas? i cant seem to find one, half minded just to start one up in my forums to see what happens. lol

thanks guys.
chuck
almightyarboreals.com

Chuck,
...This is the forum for Rainbow Boas. Tony Basica's "Just Rainbows" forum was doing fairly well but then kind of dried up. We were fairly active there but we never had the volume of people that we needed to keep it going. Kingsnake.com just by it's shear size brings in more people than any other reptile website can, so IMO this is the best place to have a Rainbow Boa forum. If you are gonna stay in Canada there is one Canadian BRB breeder who posts here. He produces some great looking BRBs. Them Tree Boas can be mighty stubborn.
Jeff

>>also is there a forum for just rainbow boas? i cant seem to find one, half minded just to start one up in my forums to see what happens. lol
>>
>>thanks guys.
>>chuck
>>almightyarboreals.com

Lora,
...It occurs to me that some people may be afraid of being bitten by a four foot long BRB. If you want you can send your BRB to me and I will tame it for you. I should be able to tame it and send it back to you after a month or two. Or I can trade you a tame 2003 or 2004 female for it. We would need to be careful of the weather shipping this time of year.
Jeff

>>I know evil is a strong term, but this girl snake is just a biting machine. Her mate is calm and sweet, never any trouble to handle. The female, though beautiful, goes totally spastic whenever I attempt to remove her from the cage. I use a hook (she's gotten me once before), but she still flails about frantically with her mouth open just trying to get a mouthfull of me. Picture a fire hose with teeth thrashing about! Makes cage cleaning a real challenge! She's really a lovely looking snake, but I do have a concern that her temperament may be passed on to her offspring. What is your experience with breeding mild mannered snakes with "difficult" mates? I know juvi BRBs can be a little snappy, and I'd hoped that she would grow out of it. She's nearly 3 now and at least 4 ft long (hard to measure with all that thrashing). Any chance she'll mellow out? Suggestions? She's healthy, eats very well, temps around 82 for the hot spot in the cage. Just bitey as all get out. I hate to go for the gloves, but I also hate getting bit if I can avoid it.
>>
>>-----
>>Lora

Seeing as you put it that way in your last post...sorry I posted at all.
God I wish I were as totally fearless as you.

Maybe that's not the right choice of words. I think what Jeff is saying is that a re-conditioning process will prove beneficial. There are 2 ways that this could/would work. 1) the snakes becomes conditioned to accept secure yet gentle handling and 2) the owner believes the snake is much less likely to bite and handles it in a more secure and confident manner. It is a learned behavior on the part of the handler to not react in a manner that is detrimental to the outcome of the process. This non-reaction is difficult for many to learn. There is a saying about training dogs....one proper correction is worth 30 tries. Every single instance that the snake perceives as a win it reinforces the same reaction in the next or similar situation. Also every instance that the snake's behavior does not produce it's desired outcome is one step closer to a change in behavior. It's choice is unpredictable, however, instinct says it will be defensive or retreat. Since it's retreat is somewhat unnacceptable we have to meet it somewhere in the middle. I think you already know all this...but for a normal healthy handler it only adds an extra step in using a hook or gloves. If it's owner has a condition in which it could cause serious injury to handle without gloves, by all means you should guard your condition. You probably shouldn't be handling snakes at all if it is not medically advised for your tendency to bleed more freely. Learning NOT to drop something when it startles you is also a learned behavior.

Linda

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"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer

Jeff,

I really appreciate the offer of help in taming this snake. I've been keeping snakes for 15 years, and been bitten plenty of times (by snakes quite a bit bigger than this girl too!)- I just have less tolerance than I used to for it. I've often found I'm a lot more forgiving of a wild snake biting the heck out of me- hey then I know I asked for it- than one of my "pets". I do agree that she needs more handling, but I would like to avoid the daily thrashing/biting phase if there's an alternative. Because she started as a timid feeder, I avoided stressing her with handling to keep her eating. She's been over that for a while now, but I haven't changed my behavior and handled her any more frequently. I'll see how she reacts to some daily handling and take the suggestions listed above and try to tough it out. My work schedule has been pretty crazy lately with a lot of out of town travel, so my time home is mainly spent just getting all the cages cleaned and the snakes fed.

Thanks!
Lora

>>Lora,
>>...It occurs to me that some people may be afraid of being bitten by a four foot long BRB. If you want you can send your BRB to me and I will tame it for you. I should be able to tame it and send it back to you after a month or two. Or I can trade you a tame 2003 or 2004 female for it. We would need to be careful of the weather shipping this time of year.
>>Jeff
>>