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amel's arent true albino,but what are true albino corns,that still retain a lot of red as well as a lot of white??what morphs?

>>amel's arent true albino,but what are true albino corns,that still retain a lot of red as well as a lot of white??what morphs?

As far as Albino, Amelanistic corns ARE albino, at least that's how I understand it. If by Albino you mean a snake with pink/red eyes that has ONLY red and white, I've heard crimsons are nice. Thing with snakes is that they have several colors, and amelanism is simply the lack of black, there will still be lots of red and yellow. Everything that SHOULD have been black will be white.
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~Sasheena

definition of albino from m-w.com:

: an organism exhibiting deficient pigmentation; especially : a human being or nonhuman mammal that is congenitally deficient in pigment and usually has a milky or translucent skin, white or colorless hair, and eyes with pink or blue iris and deep-red pupil

Amel falls under the first definition of albino. The common image of albino, mentioned in the second part, applies only to mammals because mammals only have one pigment, melanin. Thus, lacking melanin will give a white-skinned, red-eyed animal. A corn snake lacking melanin will still have red and yellow pigment (an amel). But nothing says albino has to refer specifically to a white-skinned creature (though it would make sense, albino coming from the latin word for white)
But that's why we try to use more specific terms (amel, anery) instead of albino.
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

A pure white reptile is called leucisitic, which is a pretty rare mutation in snakes. I think I've seen it in Texas rat snakes, Western hognoses, and ball pythons. An amelanistic animal crossed with an axanthic animal is called a snow, which can look pretty solid white but still has a pattern.

a-ha! Leucistic snakes come pretty close, but the eye color is usually blue/gray, not what people expect from an
'albino'. I really do think we should banish the term 'albino' from multi-pigmented animals It would get rid of those awful terms, 'red albino' and 'black albino'.
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

If you cross an albino with a leucisitc at some point you can get a red eyed all white snake. They've done this with Tx rats and I believe that's what's going on with the 'blazing blizzard' leopard geckos. So there, the guy has 2 options .
To me as far as herps go, albino = amelanistic.
Now if I could just figure out the difference between anerytheristic and axanthic, I'll be set. The terms seem interchangable in some species (ie kenyans) and not in others.

I have an amelanistic Leucistic Texas Rat. This animal is pure white with pink eyes, and is probably what the original poster is seeking to find in a corn snake. I've never seen a leucistic corn snake, and I'm not sure that there are any. As previously stated, leucism is a quite rare genetic anomaly, and there are many species in which it hasn't yet appeared.

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tricia

About the closest one can get to a pure white corn snake with pink eyes, is either:

1. A patternless snow corn (speak to Jeff Risher at Hall of Fame Reptiles about patternless snow corns).

2. A blizzard corn that comes from a particular bloodline that removes all the yellow pigment (speak to Kathy Love or Don Soderberg about the whitest blizzards you can find).

3. A snow corn that has been selectively bred to reduce as much pattern as possible (ie. frosted snow).

Someone suggested a bloodred snow or a bloodred blizzard. I have a feeling that a bloodred snow would be a solid pinkish snake and a bloodred blizzard would be a solid ivory snake.

Regards,
Benjamina.

If it has pink eyes, it's not leucistic.

>>If it has pink eyes, it's not leucistic.

You're wrong. Leucistic colour has nothing to do with the colour of the eyes, it only affects the expression of colour in the skin. Amelanism causes the eyes to be pink.

Leucism is kind of an odd thing, since the leucistic animal in fact has all the genes for the normal colour, but they can't be expressed. Breeding a leucistic (of "normal" colour, not het for amel, anery, or anything else) to an amelanistic can result in offspring that are all phenotypically normal, and all het for both amelanism and leucism.

By mating a pair of these F1's, you may obtain babies of the following genotypes:

Homozygous normal - normal colour with black eyes
Homozygous Amelanistic - red with red/pink eyes
Homozygous Leucistic - pure white with grey/blue eyes
Normal het Amelanistic - normal colour with black eyes
Normal het Leucistic - normal colour with black eyes
Normal het Amelanistic & het Leucistic - normal colour with black eyes
Amelanistic het Leucistic - red with red/pink eyes
Homozygous Leucistic AND Homozygous Amelanistic - pure white with pink eyes

I'm not sure of the percentages of each, although I'm fairly sure that Serpwidgets can probably tell you what they are. I'd guess the ratio of pink-eyed leucistics to be 1:16, but could be wrong on that. In any event, there are certainly animals out there that are homozygous for both factors, and easily recognizable as such.
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tricia

It's my understanding that a pink-eyed leucistic animal would in fact be a true albino, and not a leucistic. It has no pigment at all, which is the qualifier for a true albino.
Genetics aside.

>>>If it has pink eyes, it's not leucistic.

>You're wrong. Leucistic colour has nothing to do with the colour of the eyes, it only affects the expression of colour in the skin. Amelanism causes the eyes to be pink.

Small correction: Amelanistic (albino in the black rat) is only one of the mutant genes that can change the eye color to pink. In the mouse there is a mutant named "pinkeyed dilute" that lightens the coat to a beige and makes the eyes pink. VPI's caramel-albino mutant in the boa constrictor has a similar effect. And others are known in a variety of snake and other vertebrate species.

>Leucism is kind of an odd thing, since the leucistic animal in fact has all the genes for the normal colour, but they can't be expressed.

A leucistic animal has ALL BUT ONE of the genes required to produce a normal appearance. The leucistic mutant gene is the culprit that causes the animal to be leucistic instead of normal.

Now take that paragraph and change "leucistic" to "amelanistic". Then to "anerythristic", then to "striped", etc. And suddenly the leucistic mutant doesn't seem such an odd duck after all. 8-)

Realizing that many genes were required to make the "normal" was one of the steps that led the Drosophila geneticists to the wild type concept. Too bad that the concept has barely impacted the textbooks, even after 70 years.

>Breeding a leucistic (of "normal" colour, not het for amel, anery, or anything else) to an amelanistic can result in offspring that are all phenotypically normal, and all het for both amelanism and leucism.

Right.

>By mating a pair of these F1's, you may obtain babies of the following genotypes:

>Homozygous normal - normal colour with black eyes
1/16
>Homozygous Amelanistic - red with red/pink eyes
1/16
>Homozygous Leucistic - pure white with grey/blue eyes
1/16
>Normal het Amelanistic - normal colour with black eyes -
2/16. Though it's better to call the genotype just heterozygous amelanistic rather than normal het amelanistic.
>Normal het Leucistic - normal colour with black eyes
2/16. Again, it's better to call the genotype just heterozygous leucistic.
>Normal het Amelanistic & het Leucistic - normal colour with black eyes
4/16. Oops! These snakes should be called heterozygous amelanistic and heterozygous leucistic. Drop the "normal" from the genotype.
>Amelanistic het Leucistic - red with red/pink eyes
2/16
>Homozygous Leucistic AND Homozygous Amelanistic - pure white with pink eyes
1/16

And lastly, 2/16 heterozygous amelanistic and leucistic - pure white with grey/blue eyes

>I'm not sure of the percentages of each, although I'm fairly sure that Serpwidgets can probably tell you what they are. I'd guess the ratio of pink-eyed leucistics to be 1:16, but could be wrong on that.

You are right on that. I stuck in the fractions and the missing genotype/phenotype.

>In any event, there are certainly animals out there that are homozygous for both factors, and easily recognizable as such.

Easily recognizable as some sort of combination of mutants. But there is a tyrosinase negative albino and a tyrosinase positive albino in the black rat snake. These are mimics - independent mutants producing a fairly similar appearance. Figuring out which is in that albino/leucistic mess is easier said than done. And the more mimic mutants that turn up and get combined, the harder figuring them out will be. I (for one) have no clue as to the mutants that produce the banana California king snake.

Paul Hollander

>>>Leucistic colour has nothing to do with the colour of the eyes, it only affects the expression of colour in the skin. Amelanism causes the eyes to be pink.
>>
>>Small correction: Amelanistic (albino in the black rat) is only one of the mutant genes that can change the eye color to pink. In the mouse there is a mutant named "pinkeyed dilute" that lightens the coat to a beige and makes the eyes pink. ...

Perhaps the "dilute" gene is analogous to the hypomelanistic gene is snakes? But, does it cause different eye colour in snakes? Ruby? Red? Pink? Grey?

>>>Leucism is kind of an odd thing, since the leucistic animal in fact has all the genes for the normal colour, but they can't be expressed.
>>
>>A leucistic animal has ALL BUT ONE of the genes required to produce a normal appearance. The leucistic mutant gene is the culprit that causes the animal to be leucistic instead of normal.

Agreed! Maybe I didn't express myself clearly on that point.

>>Now take that paragraph and change "leucistic" to "amelanistic". Then to "anerythristic", then to "striped", etc. And suddenly the leucistic mutant doesn't seem such an odd duck after all. 8-)

Exactly what I was attempting to convey to WingedWolf. The "snow" corn, is just a double homozygous recessive mutant (amelanistic AND anerythristic). The pink-eyed leucistic Texas Rat is another double homozygous recessive mutant. He may choose to label it "albino," but I very much dislike that term, since it is non-specific as to what traits the animal actually is expressing.

>>>Breeding a leucistic (of "normal" colour, not het for amel, anery, or anything else) to an amelanistic can result in offspring that are all phenotypically normal, and all het for both amelanism and leucism.
>>
>>Right.

Having finished high-school almost 40 years past, I've no idea how well they now cover Mendelian genetics. When I was studying Grades 11 & 12 biology, we spent hours working on Punnett Squares - I need to review that learning, and practice making more of them for my snakies.

>>>Normal het Amelanistic - normal colour with black eyes -
>>2/16. Though it's better to call the genotype just heterozygous amelanistic rather than normal het amelanistic.

Yes, it is. I didn't do so in this instance, because I wanted to emphasise the fact that the animal does possess all the "normal" or wild-type genes whether or not one or more of those genes are paired with mutant genes. WW's dogmatic assertion that the pink-eyed LTR isn't a Leucistic, led me to have some reservations as to his/her grasp of the terms homozygous and heterozygous; and perhaps I made myself less clear, in my attempt to make myself more clear.

>>And lastly, 2/16 heterozygous amelanistic and leucistic - pure white with grey/blue eyes

I knew I should have eight types, but I didn't bother drawing the P-Square, so I overlooked this one. Thanks for catching it.

>>>In any event, there are certainly animals out there that are homozygous for both factors, and easily recognizable as such.
>>
>>Easily recognizable as some sort of combination of mutants.

Correct, of course.

>>But there is a tyrosinase negative albino and a tyrosinase positive albino in the black rat snake. These are mimics - independent mutants producing a fairly similar appearance.

I seem to recall that we previously discussed these types. I've still not determined whether or not the albino blacks that I'm breeding are T-plus or T-minus. Was it you that told me that I may be able to figure it out by breeding one to a corn snake of known tyrosinase type?

>>Figuring out which is in that albino/leucistic mess is easier said than done. And the more mimic mutants that turn up and get combined, the harder figuring them out will be.

True. Diligence in record-keeping is becoming more and more necessary. We also need to be able to rely on the breeders of animals we purchase, to provide us with accurate information on their background.

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tricia

>>>Small correction: Amelanistic (albino in the black rat) is only one of the mutant genes that can change the eye color to pink. In the mouse there is a mutant named "pinkeyed dilute" that lightens the coat to a beige and makes the eyes pink. ...

>Perhaps the "dilute" gene is analogous to the hypomelanistic gene is snakes? But, does it cause different eye colour in snakes? Ruby? Red? Pink? Grey?

I do not know. From just looking at the snakes, I'd say there is no analogy to pinkeyed dilute in the corn snake. But much more research is needed.

>Having finished high-school almost 40 years past, I've no idea how well they now cover Mendelian genetics. When I was studying Grades 11 & 12 biology, we spent hours working on Punnett Squares - I need to review that learning, and practice making more of them for my snakies.

Only masochists routinely use a Punnett square for two or more loci. 8-) Once you are comfortable with Punnett squares for one locus, shift to the branching system for two or more loci. For example, an automobile odometer is an example of a branching system.

>>>But there is a tyrosinase negative albino and a tyrosinase positive albino in the black rat snake. These are mimics - independent mutants producing a fairly similar appearance.

>I seem to recall that we previously discussed these types. I've still not determined whether or not the albino blacks that I'm breeding are T-plus or T-minus. Was it you that told me that I may be able to figure it out by breeding one to a corn snake of known tyrosinase type?

I remember that discussion. AFAIR, I said that that was one way to figure it out. But I wouldn't use that method unless I had the fortitude to kill the hybrids. And I'd find that very, very hard to do.

Paul Hollander

True albinos have NO pigment. No pattern, no nothing. They would be pure white with red eyes.
Leucistic animals are pure white with blue eyes.

Anything else is a color reduced morph--amelanistic or anerythristic, to varying degrees.

"albino" is used as slang in the herp world to refer most often to amelanistic animals.

Much of this discussion centers on agreeing on a definition of albino. IMHO, all of the following definitions are more or less true.

1) An animal that lacks all color, making it white with pink eyes.
2) An animal with no visible melanin (black pigment).
3) An animal with nonfunctional tyrosinase. Tyrosinase catalyses the first two steps in the biochemical pathway leading to the synthesis of melanin. Lack of functional tyrosinase means that no melanin forms.
4) The name of a particular gene.

Albino in the mouse fits all four definitions. An amelanistic corn snake fits the second and third definitions but not the first or fourth. The corn snake's red pigment is not melanin based, and the gene that produces a defective tyrosinase was named "amelanistic."

And if you want to be really loose, you can add another definition:

5) An animal with less pigment than normal.

As for me, I go for definition #4. By that definition, there is no albino in the corn snake. And there are albinos but no amelanistics in a number of other snake species, such as burmese pythons, ball pythons, gopher snakes, king snakes, etc.

Semantics. I love it! 8-)

Paul Hollander