Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How about a topic that we can all put our differences aside and discuss, that affects anybody that breeds or wants to breed boas.I would like to share my opinions and possible solutions on this and hopefully get feedback and opinions from the rest of you guys and gals. It is basic common knowledge that; " The market is failing and not much is selling these days, especially for any kind of decent price. " Not only breeders, but also importers are " feeling the pinch " at this point; wether they admitt it or not.I have alot of buddies and old friends in this business right now that are sitting on alot of stock that they almost cannot give away.This is why; " I have not tried to breed anything myself in the last few years. " In my opinion, there are some major reasons why this is happening. Number one: " The supply has overcame the demand and between the imports and the breeders being successful,there are just more boas out there than there are homes for them.Not everyone, finds it feasible to own over 100 boas. " Number two: " Overexposure, due to the internet. When I first got into the Hobby, you very rarely would ever see anything before you bought it and as long as it had locality data and was healthy, you were happy for the most part. Purchases were not made strictly on the bases of pattern and color ect. ect.Most of us were just pleased to get a locality boa and some of the rare animals could only be pictured in your imagination unless you seen them in a book or occasionally at a show. Today, you can see everything at a click of the mouse and there is not much imagination involved. Some guy posts one of his best boas on the net and everyone goes ape and wants one just like it and nothing else will do. " Number three: " Kind of goes with number two. You guys get in an uproar when I say this and here it is again. Selective breeding for certain patterns and colors is a good way to price boas higher, but it is coming around full circle and will fall flat really soon. As you price them higher, the less patterned and colorful boas go lower. However, as more peolple breed the high end boas they will and in some cases already are becoming more common place and when everyone has them, you cannot charge more money for something that everybody already has. " So, what are some solutions? In my opinion, there is only a few possible solutions. We all need to stop buying imports or everyone take a few years off on breeding, but the paradox is that they both kind of go together. The morph breeders are kind of genius in this way ( wether they know it or not ) they have no real import competition. Alot of the morphs originated in the wild, but I think we can all agree that there are not hundreds of albino boas ect. being imported in every year.They have control over their market and us locality guys have to not only compete with each other, but the importers also. Wether we like it or not ( and GOD knows I am guilty too ) if a breeder has a Suriname for $500 and an importer has one just as nice for $125, guess wich one is getting bought? This, is probably the biggest problem with the market. There are many other things that I could discuss, but I am not writing a book and I hope to hear from the rest of you on this subject........GOD BLESS.....Johnson Herp

Well, I guess if importers are feeling the "pinch" than that can't be so bad. Does that mean that they are going to leave them in the wild? No, probably not. They just won't be importing that particular animal species if the market is slow.

As far as the hobby goes. Maybe the reason why people are "sitting" on animals is that they may not practice competitive or market pricing. To me I would rather sell something for less than "market" and invest the proceeds into something that does have a higher demand. If that in turn drives the price down to undesirable market prices, oh well. I don't think the large breeders are getting any less for their animals.

Oh...I almost forgot. If anyone wants to sell me a NICE pastel at a good deal...contact me. I won't tell anyone what I paid .

Brett

Okay, so your saying that you'll sell animals BELOW market to re-invest into a higher demand project. How would you feel if you did this, re-invested, and the next season the other breeders DUMPED them. Say you paid 10,000 for a pair of snakes, and the NEXT week the breeders said heck with it, let's dump them at 5,000 a pair. Say what you like, but your going to be mighty upset losing 5 grand overnight. But, it's okay for you to do this to everyone else that invested money just like you did. Yes, the big breeders will still sell, and this is a huge reason why. Buyers can be confident that big breeders aren't going to pull a bonehead move and start dumping them just to move them out, making their investment WORTHLESS! I wouldn't buy from someone dumping animals because I already know what part they're going to play in my investment....they're going to murder it! Sell the couple babies you can sell at market price, use the money to raise the others, offer them to a big breeder...they may buy some to help protect their assets as well as their buyers. Once you raise the ones you couldn't sell, the price will naturally become more affordable and you'll end up doing well at the lower cost with sheer numbers. Also, why re-invest at all? You already admitted your just going to dump them at whatever price you can get....great investment! Now, before you get all upset and say they are yours and you can do whatever you like, I'll admit....YOUR 100% CORRECT! But, don't get upset when you re-invest into that more desireable morph and someone two steps ahead of you does what you did with your animals. If the market price is too high, it will adjust accordingly. Patience is a virtue, and it generally pays off. We can't all do this for a living, but if we do it to the best of our abilities, and use some common sense, we should have no problems getting our animals to pay for themselves at minimum. If you truly love the animals your keeping, this should be more than enough. This is just my opinion though, do what you think is right. Take care!

Paul

I like to consider my animals as my hobby not an investment, so I guess that's why our opinions may differ.

It's all about the laws of supply and demand. If the supply(everyone and their brother breeding for investments) exceeds the demand, then prices drop accordingly. If I was "sitting" on a bunch of animals that were taking up my "investments" space and food then I my friend are not going to sit on them till someone comes along and pays 10K for my pair of snakes. Meanwhile the going price has dropped to 2K a pair. Make sense?
You can sit on them till the cows come home.....hopefully they sell at your 10k price.

Would I be pissed? Sure but that is the risk involved. As far as a the Boa market goes is it really that bad? Because it seems to me there is alot of selling going on and people are getting what they are asking or close to it.

Take it easy-

Brett

Well, I mentioned them as investments because that is the language you used. If you absolutely don't care about making money, your probably not going to be buying morphs while they're thousands of dollars as everyone knows the price will eventually fall. So, in that case there won't be much dumping of prices on your end. Your right though, the market isn't doing that bad, it just seems that there is constantly someone out there in a hurry for it to go belly up, so they can own one. Problem with that is that some of those people only want one so they can try to make money...they won't magically go back up to 5,000 each after you pay 249.99 for one-LOL! Oh well, it's all in fun anyway....good luck to you, take care

Paul

I disagree. I feel that the issue is that we're selling a luxury item (not a requirement for day to day life such as housing or toilet paper). This previous year was an election year and they are known to drive the flow of the economy down as people feel wary (financially) until that has passed. After this last election there was not a flood of "good" economic news but rather more reports of increased unemployment, rising fuel costs and instability. A person, unsure of their future employment status, is not going to increase their collection size but rather maintain it's status quo until they are sure of the future.

The sales trend that I have seen for the last 9 months has been increased sales of maintenance items (substrates, lights, etc) and a decrease in new animal purchase (new set ups etc).

I think there is an increase in potential demand due as reptiles become more and more mainstream. The prolific nature of the information on the internet has been a large portion of this growth. Once the economic situation moves to a point that people can focus on luxury item purchases again you will see in an increase in sales.

What we will hopefully see due to this "drought" is a smartening of business practices by breeders and importers. With it's easy entry (low experience in business and low start up costs) this industry tends to attract those that have little understanding of business practices.
Scales - Premium Exotic Reptiles

book). Everything moves in waves...

It does not matter what product or service it is. The economic model shows us that when companies/breeders are making a large profit on a product/snakes it encourages other companies/breeders to reallocate their resources into producing these high profit products/snakes. When this happens more product/snakes are produced and to be competitive individual companies (usually those with lower overhead, such as us "small time breeders"sell their product at competitive below cost prices. After this occurs it drives the profit margin down. This in turn signals some breeders to get out of the specific product/snake to allocate their resources into higher profit products or new morphs. And finally when people or breeders decide to produce a different product it takes the pressure off of the previous product or morph and the price will again rise to start the whole cycle over.

np

... disagree with much you have written on this important subject! But as happens many times also do see your point and strongly agree with a lot of your thoughts.

If I can put my observation (and opinion) into a readable note (less than book-length!) without stating my assumptions as fact, indirectly attacking those I disagree with and promoting my own personal goals to an undue degree... I will share it with you and anyone else interested.

Until then, keep up the good fight!

Your buddy, Gus

You have my vote !
Your expertise/assumptions are always welcome.

T/

Sitting here on my lap top in a truck stop last night posting this " half pooped " I probably could have worded some things a little different. There are definately alot of small and some large issues that are causing the decline in the market and that is why I hoped to receive everyones opinion on this and would love to hear yours Gus.I just believe, " personally " that our desires to buy cheap imports will continue to cause the main demise of the market and like I said; " I am guilty of this also. " Competition with other breeders, is not that great. Breeders come and breeders go and some stick around forever and go through the good times and the bad times. This Hobby has always had a way of " weeding the ones in it for the wrong reasons out of it. " Impatience, is also something that has hurt the market. A number of herpers do not want to take the time to raise babies anymore. They would rather buy adults and try their hand at breeding more quickly. It is a vicious cycle; " Some do not want to raise babies, but they want to have babies and hope that everyone buys theirs? " To sum it up once more; " In my opinion, if we stop buying imports, we will have more control over the price of our animals a

Do not know how I got cut off there?? We will have more control over the market price of our animals, if we stop buying imports. Regardless, I hope we can all put our petty differences aside and come up with a solution. I know some of you guys think I am all " gloom and doom ", but I just try to look at least a little bit into the future. I will probably be doing this forever...GOD BLESS......Johnson Herp

When you talk about buying imports are you just talking about true locales?? I do not see how this affects the morph market. Andy

These are my opinions on Morphs being the subject...

I have given some thought about the market saturation myself. I think what we must realize here is that like as previously stated only some people are willing to pay $1000 to $10000 for a boa. That is true. Do we really think the individual pet owners are the ones buying? It is my opinion that only those who are trying to attempt breeding or for future breeding are the ones buying at those prices. I really do not think we have seen what this market will do when the pet owners start buying.

Andy

"I really do not think we have seen what this market will do when the pet owners start buying."

True. I think that will only happen when the prices fall much lower for the average pet owners to shell out their money for the morphs.

Eric

I agree with some of your points.

There seem to be more breeders and litters than buyers. In
economics they talk about market equilibrium. This would
appear to be exactly what you are referring to. This
could be a good thing. We as a herping community should try and
do something about importers.

The other thing, which I'm sure is not going to be a popular
opinion; is that there are only so many people willing to pay
$1,000-$10,000 for a boa.

I have read your posts and value your opinions, so far . What do you think about the market and it's future?

BTW- I dig your site and what you have/are doing for Boas. Will be talking to you shortly.

Take it easy-

Brett

I somehow had read over the part about the morphs the first time...I agree with the fact that the imports are lower cost, but do not see how they can be stopped, when these types of animals are mainly going to the pet trade. People overall simply cannot afford $500 for a pet snake, when the pet shop can sell you one similar for say $300. Promoting captive bred and informing the people on what captive bred even is ...that's the ticket! Most pet owners know that someone has to breed them, they just have no understanding of the fact that they can to. If you get the general pet owners to reject imports you will have a stronger market for true locale breeding and price. The pet shops will fight hard on this, as it is their livlyhood. I do not claim all the answers only my opinions, Just my 2 cents. Andy

a good one that most all of us are concerned about but I worry that your proposed soutions may have some problems. To just cut off all of the supply would obviously raise the prices but how would you regulate this? Soon you would have a type of reptile black marcket that sold snakes "illegally". Asside from the fact that it would be "illegal" the snakes would likely be mistreated because it would create a market for people who only care about making a buck instead of propogating the hobby. Also, especially for breeders/retailers who do this full time and have no other souce of income are they just to vacation for the next few years? That's just not possible.
The best solution IMO is to try and increase the standards and goals of the individuals that sell these animals. This would affect the breeders and importers. If there is a standard of quality that is generally accepted and encourages only selling the best snakes this will help the hobby as a whole. If the goal of breeders/importers is to contribute to the hobby, then they should be concerned with this. Most of us are concerned with this but there will always be those who look at this as a sexy investment or a way to make some easy money. Most of have friends or know someone who thinks this way so we can all relate. Unfortunately, if you ask anyone who has been in the hobby for an extended period of time, this is not typically the case. I have found that this hooby requires a lot of my attention and a lot of work and patience. It is true that there may be a few lucky people who find the next morph and score big but really, what are the odds? Not very good.
The goal should be, like you mentioned, to weed out the people who are doing it for the money. No breeder can deny that the money is an important factor but if we stay grounded in the hobby and what the hobby is all about then we should do just fine. The market will fluctuate nobody can stop that.

Something tells me it probably has morphed out fangs and venom! Seriously though, nice looking snake. But since I've been known to hit my head on objects I've walked by ten thousand times, I'm sure I'd take a hit sooner than later if I kept any hots. Accident prone and hots equals one very bad equation-LOL! Take care

Paul

but one of my favorites I took during a trip to the AZ desert. The greatest part about photographing rattlesnakes was that they would stick there tounge out like that and hold it for about 5 seconds or longer. It is a defense/intimidation thing although sometimes it seemed more like a pose.

Here's a more appropriate picture for the topic.

They are large enough to be impressive, but not so big John Q. Public (me) can't handle an adult. They are not venomous. They are one of the easiest reptiles to keep (husbandry-wise.) There will always (IMHO) be a healthy market for locality and morphs, but, like the market (economy) will go up and down periodically. Like playing the stock market, breeders need to be able to withstand a "bear' period.

In 30 years, importers will not be a problem. By that time there will be so much habitat destruction and overexpoitation that very few countries will be exporting ANYTHING.

As far as the captive bred market goes.... you better start investing in corn snakes. The large boas and pythons will be illegal in most cities. The places that DO allow them will have strict guidelines on what and who does the breeding. Guess I'll finally have a good reason to turn to a life of crime...lol.

How's that for gloom and doom??? Man I need more coffee...

The rise and fall of the snake market doesn't really concern me. I raise them because I enjoy it. I'm a terrible business man. It would take Devine Intervention for me to be able to make this my living. I love raising kenyans, which is a terrible business move. The market is so glutted with them that you can barely break even. I'm sitting on most of a litter of anery's now because its not worth advertising them, or getting a table at the local herp show. I have 4 holdback females that will be breedable in a year. That will more than triple the amount I can produce in a year. Its hard for me to sell what I produce now. I think I'll just slow it all down and take a year or two off with them. Since I'm not counting on the money I can afford to do that at least.

I have a pair of DH for snow columbians that will be breedable in about 2 years. The male is breeding now. I hope the market bounces back by then. If not I hope I'm able to work out trades for other snakes...lol. I think it will bounce back to a degree. Everyone got hit pretty hard with the recession. Its hard to think about snakes when you need a job. I might be wrong, but it seems that a lot of the hard core snake people are in my age group. Late 20's - Early 30's. People who were impressionable when snakes became the craze in the 90's I think that as more and more of us settle down and can afford homes that it may pick back up. Its kinda hard to get a big collection in an apartment.

Sorry about the rambling... I went from gloom and doom to a sugar high. Amazing what 4 cups of coffee can do.

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Travis Rose
Lazy S Snake Ranch
(859) 582-7310
0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.3 Anerys, 0.1 het for anery, 0.3 Possible hets, 1.0 normal)
0.3 Ball Pythons
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross)
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife

np
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"Quality isn't Quality without customer service so I guess I sell quality"