Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi all,

in case anyone missed this:

http://www.chronicleonline.com/articles/2005/01/08/news/news02.txt

a developer is being forced to bulldoze over a population of Gopherus. i'm wondering if their are any indigos left in this location od citrus county.

matt

I wonder if the presence of indigo's would even stop them.

I wonder if anyone has looked into the possibility of treating the population or at least those animals that tested positive for the respiratory disease and then relocate them.

I have to admit that i'm torn on this issue. On one hand, I believe that we should do everything we can to protect these animals but, on the other hand I have a big problem with government agencies and animal rights people telling us what we can and can't do with our OWN property.

The best option would be for someone to purchase the property to protect it from development.

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Unfortunately, Florida will issue an incidental take permit to include Eastern indigos as well. As you may recall, I posted such a case on here a few months back.
As for treating the infected population, that has been attempted before, with desert tortoise populations in California, and has proven to be ineffective for an entire population.
Culling the infected animals, while placing the rest into quarantine and relocating those specimens which do not harbor the disease is perhaps the most effective tool.
As sad as it sounds, once the state has issued the permit, it is very rare to have such revoked.
I know we have a few folks down in the sunshine state. Would any of you be willing to track down teh names and addresses of the local legislators for that area?
Perhaps a mail and e-mail campaign would at least convince those in power to look at ther options...

Jeff

You can develop any habitat you want, whether or not it has protected species, as long as you are willing to put out some extra dough.

The future of these animals depends an keeping protected habitats protected. Populations on privately owned land are almost impossible to protect.

I agree with Eric in that the best thing that could happen would be for an organization with some money (like www.tnc.org)
to step in and purchase the land to leave as it is.

The money talks....every time.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yup, you heard CORRECTLY.

The fact that this population of Gopherus may have respiratory disease belies the fact that these are sentient beings, a fact that seems to be overlooked in this case. Developers ALWAYS have huge amounts of leverage..due in part to the potential PROFIT made by the state, city and county authorities.

They say money talks and _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ walks.

The one thing that I have noticed in the past year is that developers have run willy nilly over conservation efforts.
And for those of you that voted Bush, yes I am talking from the top down. Logging has increased, and old growth forests are now fair prey.

Government intrusion into what people do with THEIR land IS a huge issue, and I tend to agree with Eric in saying that it should be limited, on the other hand, the FAUNA that lives on said land isnt really the property owners, it is a dowery for FUTURE generations, which can be ruined and destroyed for temporary gain.

I think we need to just pool our resources and buy up the state of Florida......

Come'on guys....we can do it.!

I can pledge..(Fred digs deep in right pocket) the following:

1) $50.00 cash
2) A turban snail shell(Welcome to Calif!)
3) Two sticks of Wrigleys Spearmint gum
4) A peanut butter cookie from last week?Egahds!

I know what your thinking, I'm off to wash laundry now as we speak

Fredrick Albury

yes, it takes money.

but it also takes votes. politicians are there for the votes (i suppose some have a few ideas of their own), then the money flows in the most indirect and unusual ways.

let your voice sound like a vote. write letters.

http://www.savebiogems.org/everglades/

here's a chance to let your voice be heard regarding a piece of the everglades.

matt

I feel "called out" somehow... being a Sunshine State person.

Dunno what I can do, mebbe provide some e-mail addresses for those that want to vent. Guess I'm in agreement with the other posters, money talks. Wanking has limited effect.

It is indeed the almighty dollar that rules the roost. Sad as it might be. Bush or Kerry not withstanding. We all have a vested interest, but are ill prepared to represent ourselves in a cohesive manner. We, unfortunately, are not lobbyists. Even if we were, we would not be taken seriously.

Bottom line is, ya gotta have the bux to back you up.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

Nothing stops developement here in Florida. I am currently going throught a similiar situation. There is a large parcel of land and near where i live, with several active gopher burrows, and yes i have picked up two indigo's in the last year, which were about to be killed by ignorant new homeowners. The land is shrinking and when i called Fwc, they told me and i quote" just because there are gophers and indigo's does not mean develpoement will stop". The developers apply for a "take permit" which basically allows them to kill, or relocate gophers and yes even indigo"s. The permit also applies to indigo"s so they do not stand a chance. Habitat destruction is the number one killer for indigo's here in Fl. Contrary to what some may think, overcollecting is nonexistant. Developers will develope no matter what, they play games with DEP and win every time. I took some good pics of the two adults i saved and released, so i can show my kids what Florida was like. Protecting the animals only works if you protect the land they are on. Serious herpers have no chance here in Fl. of producing indigo's, but yet their habitat is being destroyed at a record pace.

I sent a long soap box type letter to one of you a week or two ago with conserns for the future of the private sector of herpetology and included a "spat" about this exact subject. He is privey to my view already but here I will elucidate for those who "missed out".
Understand that ANY office with authority in this country needs to show that it is working for a purpose. Usually this is some form of protection of our natural resourses or the people, some times one from the other. Here we have a perfect example of the villanization of the group most interested in the victim over those who find this victims removal a "necessary evil". We could never purchase a "keep permit" for these endangered animals but because of the necessity to keep commerse going this same endangers animal is removed ,either spiritually or physically, from it's home for the sake of our economy. Now there are those of us who see a viable economy in the breeding and sale of these very impessive animals but we, my friends, are the minority. It would be an up hill climb to try and take on the developers in the state of Florida who have firm lobbies and well seated elected officials plus Game and Fish right were they want them.
The money generated by the "Take permits" helps keep their "world" going 'round and I can assure you, it's a pretty penny! Even if we all gathered together we could not amass that kind of money. Our other problem is these same officials see the need for construction and homes. They haven't got a clue as to WHY anyone would want to keep a tortoise or a snake! And programs like the cable station Animal Planet puts on do not foster KEEPING wild animals! Now you know why they got funding.
But this is a world wide problem. Ours are but the tip of the iceberg.

Phil,
I totally agree with you. In some ways it mirrors the hunting lobby in this country, whose dues and permit costs maintain tracts of land to preserve wildlife so that they can have the privilige of hunting/killing it in a controlled manner.

Bottem line, unless there is LOTS of money involved and political gain(Read ,also money) protectionis going to be minimal at beast.

For much more insight into this insidious problem, please take the time out to read the book entitled: SHADOW MOUNTAIN, written by Renee Askins in 2002. It chronicles a 15 year struggle at wolf conservation efforts in North America and reintroduction efforts in Yellowstone National Park, and the resistance to same.

A truly amazing woman...an amazing human being...

A book that illuminates the corruption and greed that determine MANY legal issues regarding conservation of OUR forests/wetlands/wildlife.

Sincerely,

Fredrick Albury

I agree, we are just a small insignificant spec of a problem in the big picture. However, it hurts to drive by and see it every day, knowing what is really going on down here. To the average person who knows no better, conservation is working, we see the ads on tv all the time. There is a dark side which herp educated people see and battle from time to time. What about an "incidental breeders permit"? Sounds a little far fetched i know, but what if? Although we could never release them in the wild, i mean after all where would they live without fanatics with rakes and machetes? I have lived in Fl. my entire life and it really hurts when all i can do is sit back and watch these amazing creatures disappear.I also agree, most reptile shows portray all reptiles as killer beasts, which do not belong i nthe home. Although they usually just see an Austalian idoit dragging a 12 foot croc out of a pond so you really can't blame some of them. I have often wondered of the exact definition of "incidental" as opposed to "unincidental"? I think the developers and FWC use a different dictionary than most of us. They must use the special issue $ben franklin$ editon. Thanks for your input, let's start a revolution.