Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok you want info on UVB needs of reptiles in general, and what "full spectrum bulbs" provide read some of the following links, provided by Rob & Vickie Dachiu.

www.naturallighting.com/articles/reptile_lighting_current_perspective.htm

my.pclink.com/~dkelley/igcare.htm#lig

www.angelfire.com/al/repticare/page4.html

I find these very interesting read them. It goes against what you think, but it is published data and data collected by reserachers. Again it shows that most bulbs don't provide the UVB in the range neccesary for Vitamin D3 formation, if they really provide any significant UVB at all. This point has never been addressed by those that think UVB is neccesary. They just say it is neccesary and don't provide any concrete proof. They also claim that they see dragons with MBD all the time, and just blame it on lack of UVB. They have no proof what so ever that lack of UVB was the problem. As the URLs above show reptile lights do not produce enough UVB to synthesis enough vitamin D3 anyways, there are a few that may. Another issue that has never been addressed by the people that preach that MBD is caused by the lack of UVB, is that why there aren't so many more cases of MBD seeing as how most lights do not produce enough UVB to synthesis an adequate amount of vitamin D3 to absorb proper amount of calcium. These issues are ignored. Instead they bash the people that try to provide proof. I provided many quotes from the following site.

www.myiguana.com

This site is writen by Mr. David Krughoff who is a very knowledgeable herp keeper. Again care must be taken because this site is written about iguanas, which are herbivours, where as dragons are carnivours. The big difference is that dragons which eat animal matter get some D3 from their natural diet where as iguanas do not. Therefor iguanas just by the fact that they are herbivours have a higher need for vitamin d3 and thus are more prone to MBD. the only place that Mr. Krughoff mentions bearded dragons is on the following link, at the very bottom of the article so you must keep reading.

www.myiguana.com/antohow.html

He does state that dragons that were raised devoid of UVB and fed only RepCal pellets had normal blood serum levels of Vitamin D3 and Xrays showed normal bone densities. I also have found no where on Mr. Krughoff's site him say that iguana, which are more prone to MBD because of their diets, absolutely need UVB. He does recomend using a merc vapor bulb or ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0.

Here is a link on Mr. Krughoff's site that involves the production of vitamin D3 induced by exposure to "full spectrum bulbs". This study was performed at Boston University's school of Medicine.

www.myiguana.com/bosunstudoff.html

It should be noted that out of the 5 lights that were tested the only one that induced the production of vitamin D3 was the zoo med bulb.

The following link discusses how much supplementation should be provided to iguanas.

www.myiguana.com/vitsup.html

Things that I took away from this were that Iguanas can survive with just vitamin supplementation. Also that if you provide daily supplementation your iguana will not overdose on vitamin D3 or calcium, even if he is exposed to natural sunlight.

Ever wonder how much UVB lizards would be exposed to in the wild. Well here is a link. The data provided is from the United States government.

www.myiguana.com/antohowmucuv.html

This shows that the best lights do not provide squat when compared to natural sunlight in florida or californa.

I feel that this all adds up to a final conclusion. However some people will not agree with that conclusion, but they also do not provide evidence to the contrary. Just oh I got in another dragon that didn't have UVB and hence has MDB. Things are not that black and white. Can these people assure us that the temperature was right. That the diet was correct. That every other husbandry practice was correct? They haven't assured us of that yet. Even if they do can it be shown that some other factor was not the main contributing factor. I for one think not. I feel that if all this material is read with an open mind it will shed some light onto the UVB/vitamin D3 controversy.

Hope you all enjoy the reading as I did. Again I am not saying to stop using UVB if you feel it neccesary, or think it is beneficial. My dragons are under merc vapor bulbs. My iguana spends the winter under merc vapor bulbs and the summer out on my porch. I think if you really want to do the newbie the best information say that UVB is not neccesary but is recomended by some. That it is believed by experts that vitamin D3, which is necessary for calcium absorption, can be provided by supplementation and proper diet. Explain what proper supplementation is and what a proper diet is. And while you are at it explain the heating needs of dragons. Diet and heat are the keys. You may also say that UVB in sufficient amounts, which some bulbs and list the some, can lead to adequate vitamin D3 formation. however even this is questioned by some experts and veternarians.

I think this post provides links sufficient enough to show that UVB is not absolutely neccesary, but also might be beneficial. Now the ball is in the other sides court to provide proof, not just oh this dragon with no uvb has mbd, that uvb is neccesary.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I thought it was common knowledge that marketed "full spectrum" bulbs did not produce adequate UVB. Full spectrum generally refers to the full visible spectrum (between 400 and 700 nanometers) UV light is below this range. The articles did not include mercury vapor bulbs which produce around 50 µW/cm2 of UVB.

Peter

This is true. However what newbie is going to buy a mercury vapor? None. They are avalable in very very few pet stores. Ad when they are available in pet stores they cost $90. No newbie will pay that. And there is one merc vapor that is junk just like most strip lights. full spectrum is supposed to have the sam PSD as sunlight. Or i thought I had read that.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

I just purchased 3 mercury vapor bulbs for 34.95 at www.reptiledirect.com, or www.bigappleherp.com. I searched the internet for the best prices before I buy. The reason these bulbs are used, in my opinion, they are best light source you can provide with the exception of the sun, and they last anywhere from 10-12 months. Seems economical to me considering you have to take into consideration the well being of your dragons. Seems to me that when you take the responsibilty of acquiring a pet that you provide that pet with the best possible. We buy supplements which can be expensive so why not proper lighting. The Bearded Dragons I speak of are not my pets just the same I just fell in love with them. So why not give them the best.

the average newbie does not buy thiings online. The ybut them at the lacal pet store. Local pet stores sell merc vapors for $90 usually. And zoomeds for like $35. They don't go to shows or to the sellers online. That was my point most newbies, the ones that get dragons from pet shops, do not get bulbs that produce much uvb.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

.

NP
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Before everyone starts on me... let me give background about me. I am new to message boards. I have read but this is my first post ever. I am new to Beardies and reptiles but not to animals. I was in Vet school at Auburn University when I got pregnant with my first child. That being said I am familiar with how opinions change from one to another and evolve over time. Take spay and neutering dogs and cats. Twenty years ago Vets said let them have a litter first. Ten years ago let them have their first heat cycle. Today, do it between 12 and 16 weeks so those hormones never come into play.

We learn as we go and try to do the best with the KNOWLEDGE and MONEY that we have available to us. When I was in Vet school one teacher contradicted the next. Just as one breeder does it a little different than the other. Is one wrong over the next? Who knows. It is interesting to see how debated this subject is. As far as a newbie to BD I will use UVB. Because I have invested to much time, money and most of all heart into my little girl. But, what I don't like about this board is the bashing of one person to another. Everyone is on here to learn not to hear people debate one issue for a week and clearly neither side backing down. An opinion is like your backend. Everyone has one. With that said why doesn't everyone invloved just let it go. If someone needs info. post what you believe and don't put nasty Replies and put down other breeders. We all have hearts and don't want MBD for any of them.

If you don't care for what I said it wasn't pointed at ANYONE and it is my opinion. Like I said we all have one. I hope you relize you are all have a comminality ........Your Love of the Animals. So get past the problem and go spend some time with your Beardies.

Like I said I am a newbie and am not trying to make everyone hate me. But, please let it go. Get on to new topics. Talk about Daytona comming up. I heard it is not a show to miss. I enjoy reading the posts here. The messages are helpful. The knowledge I have gained is appreciated. Keep up the great information and be kind in your replies about my post. I didn't single anyone out because ya'll have a knowledge that I can't even touch and I love learning from you. Enjoy the rest of your Holiday weekend.

I am trying to give newbies an economical means of providing the necessary UVB lighting using Mercury Vapor Bulbs thats all. Not saying that the first bulb we bought was not extremely overpriced but in the long run it will save money because of the length of time they last. The floresent bulbs should be changed every six months to make sure that the proper UVB is still available, not to mention the animals have to be at least 4-6 inches away from this bulb to benefit from it. So that's $40 if purchased online(per year), $60 if purchased at a pet store (per year)not to mention the heat bulbs needed (which seems I was replacing every week). So figure I bought my bulbs for exactly $33.95,the produes well over the amount of UVB and have the added benefit of heat,(that means 2 bulbs in one to me), as florescent and I received a warrenty that these bulbs would provide the well needed UVB for one year, as long as you return the warrenty card.The Powersun bulbs also provide a good warrenty I've used it and never had a problem. So if a newbie wants an economical means to purchase these bulbs they should go to www.reptiledirect.com or www.bigappleherp.com were I found the best prices so far. Info, isn't this what this forum is about? Newbies visit kingsnake.com for the first time every day.

Those links are from 7-8 years ago, prior to most UVB lights on the market today and when very few people owned bearded dragons. Makes them moot I would think

I have lizards from that time that are still costing me dearly to feed and are healthy, we read directions and placed them were recommended and also got them out in sunlight as much as possible, along with good diet and supplement. The fact they are still here and doing well I think is evidence enough of that.

Full spectrum light? I still can not understand you going back to this..... they don't have UVB, no one is saying they do, no boxes of them are claiming they do... using that as an example of lights are worthless for UVB, so DB's do not need them is like having a washer, with clothes sitting in front of it, but saying its ineffective so I wear dirty clothes, since you never put them in it and turned the thing on!

You take certain thing from the MyIguana.com site to prove your point, but ignore the other statements around it that disprove them and the authors final recommendations and conclusions.. and its not just Iguana, it's Bearded Bragons too, you did not read enough or chose to ignore it.

My veterinarian is using the Zoo Med Powersun™ 160 Watt flood lamps with great success in his bearded dragon colony. I am presently using 9 of the Zoo Med Powersun™ 160 watt flood lamps and I'm impressed with their quality and durability.

Reptiles self regulate their vitamin D3 production when exposed to the UVB in sunlight. It is clear that if we can closely emulate sunlight with a reptile bulb, our animals can self regulate their production of vitamin D3, just as they have for millions of years. In the past this was difficult if not impossible to achieve, but things have changed. Bulbs are now available that closely emulate natural sunlight.

* At this stage of product development on May 20, 2002 - (subject to change as products are improved or new products are available) -- If I could only afford to buy 1 bulb for my green iguana: I'd purchase the Zoo Med Powersun™ 160 watt flood or the Active UVHeat™ 100 watt or 160 watt SPOT(NOT THE FLOOD). I believe the average keeper would end up providing adequate UVB with one of these, all things considered. This conclusion is the result of my own experimentation, my vet's experience and countless e-mails from readers and other researchers.
David Krughoff, http://www.myiguana.com

Dragons can live without UVB lights, they can live on iceberg lettuce, they can live in 10 gallon tanks, they can breed at 6 months.... but why advise people to do it when there is a better way for them with more benefits?

Can we all agree that it is a benefit to them? Can we ALL agree that new owners coming on KS and wanting to do the best by them and knowing little, are advised its to the dragons benefit to use UVB, good diet, supplements but encourage them to learn more over time about different options and not just told to stick em under a household bulb and dust them with D3?

"Can we ALL agree that new owners coming on KS
and wanting to do the best by them and knowing little, are advised its to the dragons benefit to use
UVB, good diet, supplements but encourage them to learn more over time about different options
and not just told to stick em under a household bulb and dust them with D3?"

Honestly NO, I can't agree. At most I would present it as an optional purchase and ephasize the importance of a well supplemented diet. I don't think that UVB lighting does anything for the dragon but aid in d3 production. The d3 can be obtained just as well in the diet through supplementing. All other health claims that UVB may produce are in my opinion actually due to light intensity as Vicki and Robs results show. The same can be achieved through regular flourescent lighting. I never suggested using just a regular incandescent bulb and supps.(though a have done that years ago with no problems). In know I made a post way down about the importance of light intensity and suggested using a flourescent fixure with plain bulbs in it. You can talk about this dragon or that dragon that you got in poor health and turned around after exposure to light that contains UVB, but you can not porve it was the UVB. You have nothing to measure against. It could just be the light intensity that stimulated appatite, the good diet you provided...etc. Again, we can debate this until we are all blue in the face, but it won't change my experience. It won't change what I know about Vicki and Rob's experiences as well as others I have known over the past 11 years who have the same husbandry practices. From my point of view it is an unneeded purchase and I will contunue to express that on this forum. It has no effect on the health or longevity of a dragon that is fed well and properly supplemented.
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Bill DiFabio
Azteclizard.com
Email Me

8 arrived here this in the past 8 days. 4 are perfect in everyway, perfect blood panels that show the things they need to process good health are there. They only thing notable in them is the extreme small size for their age. Of the 4, they came from 3 different top breeders, so it is not genetics as all the results are the same. These were not inexpensive dragons, they are amoung the most expensive and beautiful I have seem. Money, time or care was not a factor, the owner who has asked that you be given one from reading your posts and distressed over them only ask they it be under UVB lights in the future for their sake.

He is beating himself up over what has happened to these gorgeous dragons, he thought we was doing right by them, he followed the directions of one of the breeders of 2 of them. The fact they are appear so heathly in everywhere but size and thin bones, tells me they had a good diet and supplements and I do believe the owner in that. He was one that also argued that UVB was not necesary, becasue he was adviced it by others that he thought knew what was best.

The other four shows signs of early MBD, they also were raised by a active forum/list person that really loved their dragons and thought they were doing best by them, she reads this and other forums/list, she give great advise on other subjects about bearded dragons to many people.

Its up to them if they want to contribute to this discussion and announce who they are.

But I will send you one of these, any you choose and I will ship them at my cost. You can have a vet check them and also see that except the size of all of them or early MBD in four of them, they are beautiful, well cared for dragons that otherwise appear healthy in every way. I will email or post on the web a picture of each and you can choose the one you want. After you have choosen, I will give you their full history and put you in contact with the owner.

The only thing I ask that when you have studied them, your vet checked them if you want, talked to the owners, that you come back on KS and tell us your opinion... is that an offer of proof enough?

I talked with my wife. She says we can take one of them. Which would you like us to take. Or post the pictures, or email them to us. With a little info on each. I will take one, if you would like possibly two. I will have them checked out by my vet. And once I have some more info I will come up with a care plan. Any other limitations? If I raise these up is there any issues with then adopting them out or selling them if they become healthy, of course with a description of the dragons history. I have too many dragons as it is and will be selling/adopting out some males and possibly a female by the end of the year. One of our beardies is one that I adopted and will never be normal, it has little control over its legs, so she is a member of our family for life. She has had many trips to the vet. Seems like it has some sort of neurological disorder of unknown cause. It was originally being sold at deathco. The person I adopted it from bought it because he couldn't stand to see it die. He didn't have enough time to take care of it, so he put it up for free to good home. I took it in and she has been here since. She weighs in at 220 grams and has been that weight for some time now. If the adopted beardies do not turn around into healthy happy dragons I will not adopt them out. I will set up a "gimpy" colony. Just kidding. They will be kept under UVB as are all my dragons as I have stated before.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Grimdog you post uvb is not needed, yet all your dragons are being kept under powersuns. I just don't get it. Are you finding anything positive from there use? What exactly is your purpose with your posts. I read over and over and there are constant contradictions. What's you function??
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Photos

I do not think that UVB is neccesary. Why, because I was once a newbie and bought the reptile bulbs. But not the right ones. My dragons turned out fine. I do use merc vapors. They provide very intense light, and UVB. so they probably give me a little more margin for error. I just do not believe it whould be stated that UVB is neccesary.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

Oh an mattman where have I conflicted myself. I have said that it is not neccesary for you dragons to get UVB. I have never said it was useless, other people have said that I said that. I haven't. I believe the right bulbs can be beneficial, and that is why I provide uvb.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

You buy them
You use them
You(your dragons)benefit from them =
There not necessary

I don't get it.

I am also curious as to why spend the money on them, when you can get a dual fluorescent fixture with some cheapo bulbs, and I bet you will have a whiter brighter, more well lit cage........if thats all that you are looking for is light intensity. I have two different brands of mvb's that I have used, and the overall lighting I think is better by fluorescents. This may also be because the fluorescents would cover a larger area of the tank, but still I have found it to be much more well lit using a dual fluorescent/single incandescent setup, than a single mvb setup.

A dragon will develop without health problems if rasied properly without uvb. That is all I was trying to say. I use them because they do help in the production of D3 which makes it easier to supplement. That is why Ispend them money. Also merc vapors are much much easier. No need for domes or fixtures. no need fro a seperate tube for light intentsity. No need for anything but the merc vapor.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

and email you the Url for them, I have photo's, weights, lengths of the four that arrived a week ago Friday, I still need to take the Photos of the ones that arrived this week.

Cheri