Reptile & Amphibian Forums

them and I can't remember the gemetics of them?

Thanks shannon

Man I forgot about that! That looked cool from what I could tell. I have no idea of the genetics but I think they claimed it just popped out of their Hypo line? They had a few oddball snakes on their site.....I inquired about it over 3 years ago......haven't heard from Chris in a long time. If i dig anything up I will post it. Tom Stevens

Super Brooks were originally what Brian Barcyzk(sp) sold his normal Brooksi under. Southern Reptiles "In Theory" took a Brian B Super Brooks and bred it to a Glades Herp Brooks and amazingly got these odd looking wide banded high red Amels lol. I never trusted those guys the Culotta boys as I talked to them a few times and they changed stories everytime I asked about something lol.

Keith
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Thanks Kieth,
Yeah they were a little differant.I did some deals with them over the years and all went well but it was weird to say the least?

Anyways,I do remember tim ricks and lemkke's name in there as well but I couldn't remember the combo.I am getting a 1.3 group of adults from a guy that got them from chris four years ago so I am trying to dig up the info.I know that Graic has passed away and I traid to call chris but he has spluit up with his wife and has sold off his snake his mom said so who knows?
So we know they are amel /are they lav?or are they the t- like rainer has?

L8r
shannon

Yeah I just dont know. I remember what they had on their website about how it came about and I remember when I was selling a Axanthic Brooksi they called and wanted to trade me some animals from that project. I always felt but I dont know for sure that they had some Goini in them ??? I asked what was all in it and they gave me a totally different description. I think it was Chris' dad I spoke with but i conversed with Chris before as well.

Keith

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I have the super brooks from Chris Cullata. Like Keith and others have said I too have had very weird experiences with him. I got several different stories and I am still not clear on where the lavender gene came from. What I have been told by Chris is they are a cross between a goini and lav brooksi. Thats what I will be marketing them as.

I got ahold of chris tonight,He siad there was no goini in them at all?I have no idea but since there is some doubt I will be getting rid of mine since I don't like hybrids.Even though they would just be a intergrade I was hopeing they would be only brooksi?But maybe brooksi are just intergrades anyways right?

Acually,I will start a new thread.bye bye now.

L8r

shannon

Brooksi arent intergrades Shannon they are simply a color morph of Floridana. The only thing they could intergrade with is Eastern Kings. They dont naturally intergrade with Goini at all. Goini or Apalachicola King range is surrounded by Eastern Kings.

Keith

p.s. Sorry you found out the snakes are poss. of questionable background after you purchased them and not before
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>

I realize that has become the popular use of the name these days, but personally I hated to see the term broadened so much. The taxonomists sunk the brooksi name as a subspecies but for years most hobbyists still defined it as more than just a light florida king. It was expected to be very light as an adult with a less distinct pattern, a higher band count (and thus narrow banding/spacing, less black pigment on the belly, origin far south Florida. Hatchlings would have lightened scales in the center of the black blotches. Some keepers even expected lighter irises. I know a few breeders still tried to keep their classic S FL brooksi separate from other yellow phase but about the time that hypos and aneryths became available many folks created hets with any light or even normal florida they could get their hands on. Once upon a time....

Around the holidays this was the main topic of discussion on this forum. If you scroll back a page or two many of us had a lot to say about it. Check it out. Tom Stevens

Acually Keith,I know that they arn't intergardes I was just saying that.Its just ones of those hang ups I have.I did think that the supers were pure brooks(floridas) though and I didn't buy them I have a friend that has owed me for some time and he is sending them to me next week cause he is haveing trouble paying me.I will probably just send them to Rainer so he can basterdize them some more since I try to keep a pretty clean group of animals around here.

L8r shannon

... but that should come as no surprise I guess.
Anyway the super Brook's I remember was just that... A super Brook's. No amel.
I also remember Andy Barr calling some of his "super Brook's" but at the time they were not amel either.
On another tangent, I know Rainer has said he positively knows for sure of a WC albino (amel) FL king, but I have yet to see concrete evidence that there is NO CAL, Speckled, or other amel gene in most. Can someone please enlighten me?
I have some from stock that is said to be pure, and no doubt they look 100% FL king, but I also have some hets that do not look 100% FL to me.
Maybe 99.9%??lol!
:Mark

Well surprise surprise surprise!

LOL!

Anyway the super Brook's I remember was just that... A super Brook's. No amel.

different snake from a different company, same name.

Southern Rreptiles named their lavender brooks "SUPER"

I also remember Andy Barr calling some of his "super Brook's" but at the time they were not amel either.

LOL!

On another tangent, I know Rainer has said he positively knows for sure of a WC albino (amel) FL king, but I have yet to see concrete evidence that there is NO CAL, Speckled, or other amel gene in most. Can someone please enlighten me?

I am not certain that the T- floridana are pure. I just know the story as it passed on to me. I have my doubts.

>>I am not certain that the T- floridana are pure. I just know the story as it passed on to >>me. I have my doubts.

Rainer,
What is "the story" on these T- Floridana? They are very attractive regardless of their purity. I just wanted to know how they supposedly came about.

HMMMMMMMMMM, that is very odd. I'm just wondering why you say in your above post and I quote,

" I AM NOT CERTAIN THAT THE T- FLORIDANA ARE PURE. I JUST KNOW THE STORY AS IT PASSED ON TO ME. I HAVE MY DOUBTS"

end quote.

Why is this not mentioned in ANY of your ads on the classifieds?

The subject of your latest ad says,

AMELANISTIC "RED EYED" FLORIDA KINGS.

and no mention that they may not be 100% Floridas.

Sounds a little missleading to me. Sounds like to me you are trying to sell 100% Amelanistic Florida Kings.

Just curious.

Thanks, WALTER SMITH

They look like the real deal to me. I remember seeing them advertised several years ago in Reptiles magazine. The story Rainer has on them is the same story I got from the original project owners. I just wish I had beat him to the adults.

Brandon Osborne

What's up man?

I'm wondering, would you go out on a limb and say they ARE 100% FLORIDANA, going by the fact "they LOOK like the real deal" to you?

Just curious?

WALTER SMITH

Walter,
Well I will go out on a limb and say you might be related to Keith Hillson ??

Here is the short story:
Bill Corwin a former zoo keeper acquired them from a guy who bought a normal looking unknown het wildcaught pair from Glades herp many years ago. That pair produced some amels. That "guy" was later convicted of a crime and left the snakes in his apt. After he was sentenced the zoo was informed and thats when Bill Corwin took the snakes that were alive. The late Lloyd Lemke found out about the white looking amels that the zoo had and contacted Bill for a breeding loan. He bred the amel to his high red brooksi. Thats how the line got started. There is a lot more to this story but I left it out due to space.

The story behind them did check out and I was conviced enough to buy them for a high price. That being said i have raised many florida kings and these act more aggressive than other yearling floridana which normally calm down. I do tell people who inquire about them that I have doubts. Since I am the only person with these I have a certain amount of responsibility compared to "other(s)" colubrids that did not originate as close to me. I don't stick my head in a hole like so many "reputable" breeders which everyone accepts there animals as pure.

If you don't know the people personally or did not produce the first ones yourself then nothing is pure. Besides you told me you thought my T- albino didn't look right to you a couple years ago. Remember? Sometimes just a comment is enough to create "impure" thoughts.

Jerry Springer

QUOTE:

WELL I WILL GO OUT ON A LIMB AND SAY YOU MIGHT BE RELATED TO KEITH HILLSON"

END QUOTE.

You are wrong again. Imagine that.

Very nice story, but my point is simple. Your classified ad is misleading. It's title says,

amelanistic 'red eyed' FLORIDA kings.

The subject or contents of your ad says nothing that ressembles what you posted in this thread. I was just curious as to why? The little story you just typed answers that in no way, shape or form.

WALTER SMITH

You are wrong again. Imagine that.
1 Gen 2:7 LOL!

Very nice story, but my point is simple. Your classified ad is misleading.
Geez what is with you Louisiana guys? Is there something in the water that causes you to not think clearly? Why would I post the ad and then come on here and state that I have doubts? Do you think I am from Naw-rlens?

The subject or contents of your ad says nothing that ressembles what you posted in this thread. I was just curious as to why? The little story you just typed answers that in no way, shape or form.

Alowwwwwwe me to retiterate:

If you don't know the people personally or did not produce the first ones yourself then nothing is pure. Besides you told me you thought my T- albino didn't look right to you a couple years ago. Remember? Sometimes just a comment is enough to create "impure" thoughts.

*note to reading comprehension class:
hjas;iodynm ; cioikam kj ;ljuiiskj[opi lijsmkjloo pkl;mpok p;p;

Rainer,this heading is a quote from you.The next sentence is also a quote from you."Is there something in the water that causes you to not think clearly?" I don't see "LOL" after those statements from you so I anticipate you are asking a serious question.Being that I am from Louisiana,I can assure you the water down here does not affect my thinking and there is no scientific data that suggests our water affects our thinking.You should check yourself.When you misposted awhile back in another forum,you apologized saying,Gotta see my doc,ran out of zanax.You said that.There is scientific evidence that xanax causes one not to think clearly.What were you thinking"Naw-rlens",I think you were trying to say New Orleans,and its not zanax,its xanax,think clearly now.

Let's keep in mind that whether or not an ad says a snake is 100% pure or not most if not ALL of use will ask before spending our cash anyway. Many breeders will tell you what you want to hear, others will tell you what they know and let you decide for yourself. Why doesn't anyone doubt the purity of other morphs with such animosity like the White Sided Brooksi [just an example]? If anything we should attempt to learn from this confusion and hope that things "pop out" of morphs where we do NOT have so much doubt. I personally appreciate the opinions of honest hybrid breeders who can spot a hybrid in a pile of pure snakes. A very anti hybrid person once said " we are all snake people, and when the hammer falls and anti snake people want to ruin this hobby for us we will need to stand together"[well not exact words but my way does sound cool!]. I am NOT at all saying MISREPRESENTATAION is acceptable. I do think that when something IS misrepresented it is in many cases obvious that the person is either completely dishonest or misinformed. In this case I think it is just taking it a little far. I don't think it is wrong to question the purity of any snake. It could be adressed in a less accusational manner and not be labeled as possibly a misleading ad. I don't think Walter was very harsh, but as we find out often these things get harsH quickly. Just my 2 cents,,,,and no I am not Rainers brother...Tom Stevens

I didn't mean anything harsh. I was just asking about the contents of the ad and the post and why they weren't the same.

I didn't think I would get an answer, but thought I would give the benefit of the doubt and try.

Oh well.

As far as the free lesson,

Thanks Professer Springer !!
I just love your classes. I learn nothing.

WALTER SMITH

would you guys think would be in them to make them a t- ?

L8r shannon

I was just asking about the contents of the ad and the post and why they weren't the same.

WALTER SMITH

Okay I refuse for any of my students to fail my class. So here goes..

I did answer your question if you read my post. Let me say it another way. I have told everyone that has shown an interest in the ad that I have some doubts. As to the validity to my doubts it may be wrong. They may be 100%pure.

As to my my post here it should speak volumes as to my honesty. Thats what I meant about the water down in New Orleans. Your judgement on human character is perverted. Kinda like a cop.

In my second part of my response I suggested that many many people have posted unpure animals as pure that have more than just doubt.The hobby just accepts this and there is no reason to pick a needle out of a hay stack with me when I have been more honest than you in representing my animals.

Walter, what about the many corns that are crossed with obsleta and emoryi? Do you honestly think the snakes you sell are 100% pure? At least WE KNOW this to be true about cornsnake morphs. But have you told every person that their genetics may be unpure? Probably not. I breed hybrids. In the past I was a locality specific FREAK with rosy boa locales. I am on both ends of the extreme.. something most herpers have not experienced. The last thing I want to do is misrepersent any animal.

I just think that if this example which happens to be Rainer again is such an issue with people, the classifieds should be taken down in general because I have my doubts about a ton of snakes listed on there. We all know this. Yet it just seems to be focused on one individual who I know to be an honest person. Off the forums myself and a few friends often email each other links to ads that are just not making any sense. I recently saw Pink Patternless Pines for 200 bucks.....and they were tan like ones I produce and sell for less than half that. Then there's snakes which are not even hybrids or intergrades which are mislabeled. I myself have the White Sided Specks and of course I received some doubting thomas emails and even accusations. Like I said........barely anyone buys anything without asking a lot of questions. As long as someone tries to make an effort to give the history of an animal as best as they can it should be taken into account when speaking of credibility. The most annoying thing is there are some snakes in which the history points too the possibility of it being a hybrid but some act like it doesn't matter???? Yet in other snakes...and as far as the people who sell them....it's like a witch hunt. Tom Stevens

Since you are mostly into cornsnakes what are the pink and green snows ? I think some people call them "coral" or "pink and green snows". Are they pure? Or do they have emoryi or yellow ratsnake in them?

Here is one I pulled off the corn forum (I hope that Jimmy Draybar does not mind).

I understand you have a line that is even more colorful than this.

on the other?LOL.

L8r shannon

Here are more pics:

Guess what?

Wrong again, imagine that.

I don't have or sell them. Maybe you should ask the person you took the picture from. He would probably have more info on his corns.

WALTER SMITH

What is a Pink & Green Snow?

Well, it is a snake that is selectivly bred for a certain appearence.

It is well known that Corn snakes ( as well as other colubrids ) have a reflective cell layer in their skin caused by iridophores.
It is believed that when the traits in the Snow Corn, Amelanism X Anerythrism, which eliminates all colors, are combined it allows these reflective/irridescent cells to be more expressed.
This is the explination of the "florescent green" coloration.

As far as the pinks, it is proven that when Hypomelanism is combined to the homozgous double recessive traits of a Snow Corn, it expresses more pink coloration.

The "Coral" Snow line is the most extreme version of this combination and now that there is four (4) different, UNRELATED Hypomelanistic traits found in Corns, PROVEN through extensive and well documented breeding trials, we will see more brilliant versions once they are added to what we have now.

The Pink & Green Snows are more than likely the combination of both examples in one way or another, through selective breedings to refine the appearences in a more extreme form and NOT from a hybidization.

These appearences have been around in Snow Corns for many years. This goes back as far as the breedings of Dr. Bern Bechtel, so it's nothing new. It has just been refined over the years.

Thanks,
WALTER SMITH

The Pink & Green Snows are more than likely the combination of both examples in one way or another, through selective breedings to refine the appearences in a more extreme form and NOT from a hybidization.

One of the pics is 1/4 honduran x 3/4 corn.

Imagine that!

LOL!

I don't recall giving any background on that particular animal, which is not mine, nor do I recall you asking my for that infomation.

You asked about the Pink & Green Snow CORNS ( PANTHEROPHIS GUTTATUS ) and that is the answer and explination I gave, simple.

An actual ANSWER to a SPACIFIC question, without any nonsense. imagine that.
It's not that hard.

WALTER SMITH

Did you not see the pics I posted below the original question? Thats why I posted them so there would be NO mistaking about what we were talking about here.

Thats why its called a

T
H
R
E
A
D

The very first post you put up inquiring about pink & green snowsis titled:

Walter, question for you.

This is where your initial question is.

"SINCE YOU ARE MOSTLY INTO CORNSNAKES WHAT ARE THE PINK & GREEN SNOWS?"

That is the question I answered and there is no pics. in that post.

Then, the second post titled:

Walter, question for you

Has a pic. of someone elses animal that I have no clue as to it's genetic background. You say it's Jimmy Draybars pic. and now you have said that, that particular animal is 1/4 Honduran and 3/4 corn, so if that's the case, the pic. of that animals is erelavent to your question, becasue it is NOT a cornsnake, it is a Hybrid.

HMMMMMMM, Maybe I will contact Jimmy and ask him if he knows that particular snake is a Hybrid.

I don't know where you are trying to go with the question about the Pink & Green Snow CORNS? Unless you just wanted some info on them?

WALTER SMITH

Of course in a nonsensical way.

I
win

Yeah ok, what ever that is.

See ya and DEFIANTLY don't wanna be ya !!!

WALTER SMITH