Reptile & Amphibian Forums

im waiting for my ball python to get to breeding size.. so in the time i have im reading up on everything i should know.. and i have some questions..

how old do they have to be? and what weight?

depending on if my sister's incubator is full of beardie eggs, im thinking about maternal incubation... how does that work for people?

anyone know any good caresheets/sites with a LOT of info on breeding? thanks.... dave
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"i have a mortal wound!"
"where? where does it hurt?"
"oh, pretty much around the big bloody spot"
"come inside. ill get the neosporin. da na na na na - NEO! ba na na na na na na - SPORIN! blee nee nee......."

start with Richard Ross' book "Keeping and breeding boas and Pythons".....(book)

then try even some good little corn books...like the one Kathy Love wrote...it'll teach you alot...

then ....read everything else....

...age ...3 years for girls...18 month for boys....

have fun

JYReptiles

For females, it is not so much the age, but weight. Everything I have read says 1000 grams (including many posts on here from other breeders). The controversy over this is how to get a female to 1000 grams the fastest way possible to breed...some powerfeed their snakes to put weight on them, but this method (I think) is not very responsible. When your female is 1000 grams, go for it. As previously mentioned, 3 years tends to be the average age when this may be possible.

As far as I've seen/read/spoken to breeders about, there are two schools of thought.

Females:

1) 1500g MINIMUM. Doesn't matter if they reach that in 2 years or 5, it's the only safe way to breed them.

2) Three years MINIMUM. Anything before that causes undue stress on the animal. However, the weight doesn't matter - it only effects the size of the clutch.

Males:

1) Apx 550g.

2) 18 months.

I'd like to do a long-term study on female health/longevity based on their first breeding, but . . . y'know.

There's no definate answer.
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-Irish
Email: animistdragon@sbcglobal.net
AIM: VoodooDragon137
YIM: [same as Email addy]
3.3.1 Ball Pythons

I have spoken with many big breeders, including a couple I have purchased from and they both have said 1000 grams, not 1500...of course the clutch size and egg size will be effected, but in no way was this dangerous to the mother. 1500 is actually a very good sized BP. I have one female over that (1679 grams) and she is huge as well as 7 years old. I may be wrong, but reaching 1500 grams in 3 years seems like a stretch unless you are over feeding. I know one breeder that has a few females that are 1 year old and are at 1000 grams already and probably will be breeding this fall, but they were not powerfed either. He told me that some snakes just grow faster than others. I guess there is no definitive answer, but using one's best judgment and some common sense is obviously the best advice. I would not argue over the 1500 grams, but as I said before, I have been told 1000 grams minimum and you can get started.

Like I said, there's no definate answer. But if you read through this forum, and several caresheets, they all say 1500 . . . so . . . I'm not claiming to be an expert, since I've yet to breed, I'm just passing along information I've gotten by research.

It's all just guesswork, as far as I'm concerned, lol.
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-Irish
Email: animistdragon@sbcglobal.net
AIM: VoodooDragon137
YIM: [same as Email addy]
3.3.1 Ball Pythons

it says 1000 in the ball python manual.
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your head will collapse, but there's nothing in it, and you'll ask yourself, "where is my mind"

1500 grams for a female is the standard, and no, a 1500 gram female is not huge, she has the potential to hit 4000 grams. I really would like to know the names of these 'big bredders' who tell you that 1000 grmas is a good weight to breed their females, so I don't buy from them............

Either you are fairly new or not educated.. First off, there is no such thing as "Powerfeeding" unless you shove the rats down the snake. A snake will eat until its full, in the wild they are opportunistic yes, but thats doesnt mean they will eat till they die, they eat until theyre full, period. SO feed you snake what it wants to eat, or what you can afford.

Next, a female knows more than any person when it is ready to breed.. A female that isnt ready to breed wont breed.. If she doesnt like the male, she wont breed. If she is ready, she is ready, no matter if she is 600 grams or 5000 grams.. True, unless she is a dwarf and 2 or 3 years old and only 600 grams, its unlikely she will breed at this size.. Why do people think they know more about a snake than the snake knows?? You people that make up all these rules, its funny, ow can you make up rules for an animal, animals make up the rules... Period.. So there you go, and yes, I have bred lots of balls, regulars and morphs, pieds, albinos etc. I have females over 4500 grams..

So dont listen to this rule crap!!! You wont buy from a person that breeds a snake when its ready to breed? HAHA

your post has made the most sense so far... thanks. dave
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"i have a mortal wound!"
"where? where does it hurt?"
"oh, pretty much around the big bloody spot"
"come inside. ill get the neosporin. da na na na na - NEO! ba na na na na na na - SPORIN! blee nee nee......."

Well guys when one snake loves another snake very much and they just dont want to share an enclosure anymore they progress to the next step. They link tails. This is what snakes that are very mature and responsible do. Seriously i agree with your post. If they are ready they are ready. You can try and breed them quick or you can wait. Personally id rather have larger clutches of larger eggs but if the opportunity is there i would take it. However in an ideal world all of my breeders would be over 4000 grams and pop out gigantic healthy clutches of genetic striped animals, but sadly the world isnt perfect and i dont have 4000 gram females and im breeding a pair of 1200 gram girls that are doing fine.
Joe

I think you can look at a female ball and see if she is ready, check her history of breeding and eating. Has she put on weight, does she look solid, fat and healthy? I have a 1300 gram ghost female, I could have bred this year but why hurry them along? She stopped eating early, and did not look solid enough for me to breed, so I did not jeopardize her health by breeding her, and will be rewarded hopefully by a nice large clutch next year from her. I did breed my het axanthic pair, she is 1590 grams and solid looking, and I believe she is gravid. I also bred my fat unproven hypo, who is over 2000 grams. I think breeding ball females too early is a sign of greed and shows me that you are in it for the money, and do not care if you loose a few females along the way. 1200 grams seems a little small to me, but I am no ball expert, I am just starting my breeding projects. I also have a het caramel pair, female is 1390 grams, I chose not to breed her this year. The health of the animals comes first at my place. The female in the pic was bred this year, she and the orange ghost in the pic are the pair that I have eggs from. Looking at her, I knew she was ready, if there is any doubt, I wait.

Dave

Ive never had or heard of a female dying from breeding and laying eggs.. This is what they do. You think in the wild someone is watching over them to make sure they are big enough, no because when theyre not big enough, or heavy enough, they wont breed, they just wont!!! Of course a smaller female will give smaller clutches, duh.. Ive had big giant balls give small clutches and small females give big ones. Your theories are crap.. All this talk about greed, unethical stuff is just crazy.. You think someone who spent a ton of money on a snake is going to kill it? Its the inexperienced that are giving their thoughts and bad advice. The damn female wont dying because if she is too thin she will not breed..Period! Dont tell me you put a thermometer in with your snakes too?? You need to learn to read the snake instead of doing what your doing, that will kill them!! Just watch the snake it will tell you exactly whats going on and what it needs and wants.. If its always on the cool side of the cage then its too hot, if its always on the hot side then its too cool. Always in the water, then probably not humid enough, or mites, or shedding, etc. simply learn to read your snakes and you will do a lot better with them.. New people!!! You all kill me.. And you all are breeding these expensive morphs and going to be selling them, Ahhhhhh.. What kind of advice are you going to give the new inexperienced buyer? geez.. Here is your chance to learn, just read the stuff I said and think about it.. It will make sense.. Ok there you go, any questions let me know, I will be happy to answer without being a jerk..

>>clutches and small females give big ones. Your theories are crap..

See below.

>>and bad advice. The damn female wont dying because if she is too thin she will not breed..Period! Dont tell me you put a

I must have missed the thread about the dying part. Although, I believe problems with retained eggs are related to size.

>>them!! Just watch the snake it will tell you exactly whats going on and what it needs and wants.. If its always on the cool

This takes trial and error. It's something you learn with experience, not something you just have or learn overnight.

>>buyer? geez.. Here is your chance to learn, just read the stuff I said and think about it.. It will make sense.. Ok there you go, any questions let me know, I will be happy to answer without being a jerk..

Little late don't you think

Sorry, but you come off as a pompous, know-it-all whose opinion is the ONLY one. Some of your comments are valid and would stand a better chance of being accepted if you changed your approach.
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Jay A. Martin

You are right.. I have never posted on this topic and rarely post, but these are topics that come up all the time about power feeding and breeding and I got upset about people giving this advice.. And true it does take some time to be able to read the snake, but maybe now some people will start to look at their reptiles and watch them and understand whats going on.. Im sorry for coming across like that and if anyone has questions, please feel free to ask and I will share everything have learned over many years.. It doesnt take long to figure out an animal, they are individuals, not all like the same exact thing... I dont believe egg binding has anything to do with size, I have had large snake egg bound.. There are other things at play.. Now it of course ultimately comes down to the owner and I am glad that people are so caring about their animals as not to want to hurt them even if its an uneducated approach..

Again, you were right, so I again extend invitation for questions..

My thinking is on egg retention, the biological make up of the snake and small snakes. A 1000 gram female ball python is a small snake. I do not think there is enough evidence to say one way or the other that 1000 grams is a good weight, so I say 1500 grams seems appropriate. Appropriate?, yes, if my 1500 gram female is well fed, fat, solid looking and accepting to the male I introduce, then it is the females choice to breed or not. Any weight under 1500 grams, I do not even give her the choice, and my reasoning is the health of the snake, long and short term health! I do not know enough about the Ball Pythons biological make up, never disected one, to know for sure that a female snake will not suffer long term adverse affects by being bred to early. I do not want my females dropping dead at 4 yrs old because I allowed them to breed too young. I have 1000 gram ball females, and choose not to breed them, they look way too small. In the wild, balls breed to propogate the species, 1-4 eggs may be ok, and the health of the snake is not taken into the equation. In captivity, it should be about the health of the snake first, and producing morph balls second.

Dave

I have been studying breeding of Ball Pythons for over a year now and I plan on breeding this up comming season. From what I have learned, 1000 grams is a breedable female, but it can be stressful, make smaller eggs, smaller clutch sizes, and increase the risk of infertility. To be on the safe side, wait untill the female is AT LEAST 1500 grams. Male I have heard 150 grams, but again I would go on the safe side and shoot for 200 grams. Maternal incubation has worked for alot of people, and I plan on doing that myself, I see no problems with it and it is how they do it in the wild. Mom knows what she is doing, as long as you let her do her thing and only check on her once a week, she should be fine. Sometimes a slight aid from you will be needed in the case of temp or humidity drops or goes to high, but shoulden't be a problem with a good thermostat and some moss. I say go for the maternal, but wait untill they reach a good size. Just my $0.02 though. King Snake has a good care sheet on Ball Pythons with a section on breeding I believe.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

And I was happy that my 415g lemon pastel male successfully bred for me this season.

I think you are quite a bit low with your 150g (or even 200g) quote for a sexually mature male, and it never hurts to check for sperm plugs.

Also, maternal incubation may work most of the time, but it seems to me that placing the eggs in an incubator is the way to go. Its much easier to control humidity and temperatures, not to mention your female will start feeding again MUCH more quickly. No point in extending her hunger strike for a minimum 60 extra days.

Once again, not saying that maternal incubation is wrong, just that artificially incubating the eggs is probably a better method for most people.
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-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Red Striped Tangerines, Carrot Tails and Screaming Amel Fat-Tails

Like I said I am no expert, that is just what I have read and been told. as for incubators, yes they are a more reliable way to go, but I think mom knows what she is doing, they can make it in the wild, I am sure in the wild there is no controlled temps and humidity. I have NO problem with incubators, just like to keep things the way GOD intended them to be. If they go on the fast in the wild while on their eggs, they shoulden't have a problem here. If she does the only thing t0o worry about is getting her up to size for the next season, and if not oh well, I will wait to breed her again. I am not trying to sound rude at all, so I am sorry if anything I said came across that way.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

>>and humidity. I have NO problem with incubators, just like to keep things the way GOD intended them to be.

Then you wouldn't have a BP in captivity to begin with
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Jay A. Martin

Do you plan on releasing your bp's into the wild, because that is where God intented them to be....
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Josh
My Email

Krystal, Just FYI,

You may have made a typo in your post. A 150-200g male is just a baby. Some boys might breed at 500-600 grams, and all of mine have been ready by 700-800 grams.

Good luck!
Christy

150 grams for a male is breeding size? One question, and it is a two parter...how big are male ball pythons when they are born, and where would 150 grams put them time wise, how many months old? I think until you have actually bred your ball pythons, you might want to zip it, and lean back in your comfy chair and listen, just listen, no dealing out half truthes as gospel or even as your best guess.

Dave

I read through the posts and one thing to keep in mind is that there are only guidelines. Some will "fit" better than others.

The Barkers write that females will reach "probable sexual maturity" at about 1000 grams. They also state that "the first potential breeding season for most females is their 3rd winter". They also suggest that this might be on the small side and females may produce smaller clutches and (more) infertile eggs. These facts have been backed by many breeders.

Just because the female is ready to breed (or more likely mature enough) does not mean it's the best time to breed her. A 1000 gram female would likely have a small clutch and be unable to breed for at least two seasons. Breeding also depends on size. I have a couple females in the 3000 gram area that are still light for their length and thus will not breed/ovulate.

I had light females (over 2000 grams) copulate yet produce nothing.

Suggested weight for males is 600-650 grams. At this point they may reach "probable sexual maturity" and produce sperm-plugs, but may not breed. Mine would not breed until he hit 800 grams.

My general rule of thumb:

1500 grams for females
600 grams for males

Would/could I breed a female at 1000 grams. Sure you can. Just keep in mind that you may (most likley) expect a smaller clutch, potentially infertile eggs and a couple years until the next breeding season. I might do this if I was trying to prove out a female. But mostly, I would not.

I cannot comment on maternal incubation. I'm not brave enough for that. I have a clutch in the "oven" now where the mother discarded one of the eggs. So far, the discarded egg candles fine. July 28th, I'll know for sure.
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Jay A. Martin