Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

I've been researching dart frogs for the last few months, and they seem extremely interesting. The idea of building a terrarium really strikes my fancy, as I've been keeping heavily planted aquariums for quite a while now.

I've browsed the forum quite a bit, but I still have some questions.

1) In a 29 gallon tank, how many frog pairs should I consider having? I know the rule of one pair per ten gallons, but is this really applicable in aquariums only slightly larger than 10 gallon size? The aquarium measures 30"x12"x18", and I would be planting not only the floor, but also the back wall (as seen at Black Jungle's walkthrough).

2) Can I add a small day gecko, anole, or skink along with the frogs? I'm talking a single lizard only, not a pair. Ideally, I'd like to keep one to two pairs of frogs and a small reptile in the terrarium. If the requirements are the same for all species, is this generally acceptable?

3) What about lighting? In aquariums, this is the most important aspect of plantkeeping, so I can imagine it's important for terraria too. I already have lots of experience with compact fluorescent bulbs and have quite a few available to me, so I'd like to go that route. Any idea how many watts per gallon/watts per inch are needed for most terrarium plants?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! I think this would be a fun project for me to consider in the near future.
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

The one frog per 5 gallon is an estimate, but it is only rarely not followed. Many frogs will use the whole terrarium, but some really won't. Tincs and Azureus will mostly stay on the ground. Another consideration is some arrow frogs don't do well in groups (fighting and eating eggs). For a 29, a group of 5-6 auratus (many color morphes) or leucs would be a good first time setup. Both of these types of frogs are good beginners, cheap (don't pay over $30 a frog for those two species) and will use the whole terrarium (I've found leucs will use more upper parts than auratus). As far a lights, it depends on the plants.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

Thanks so much for the reply.

I think I'll go with your suggestion and get 4-5 frogs - I don't want it to be too cramped for my first try. Should I be sure to get pairs, or is it OK to have 2 males/3 females (in the case I have five frogs)?

Azureus look like beautiful frogs, but I've heard that they can be a bit shy? What about tincs? I've heard a lot about them, too. As a general rule, species should not be mixed - is this correct? Why is it a bad idea to mix?

As far as lighting goes, I'm going to use full-spectrum compact fluorescents (rated between 5500-6700K). I'm still unsure of the intensity of light and duration needed per day (i.e., 2watts per gallon of space, 12 hours a day). I'd really appreciate guidance in that area. I'd like to do a type of lush live moss on the floor, some ferns, and definitely some orchids or bromeliads. I haven't done enough research yet to say for sure, so a rough guideline might help.

Thanks again!
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::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)

You may not have a choice about sex. Most breeders offer mostly froglets or juveniles that haven't been sexed yet. Sexed pairs are usually more expensive. If you get 4 or 5 juvenile frogs your chances are pretty good of getting at least one of the opposite sex from the others, although my four auratus are all females, and out of a mix of D. galactonotus, the only male died of an injury right in the beginning. The statistical ratio of male to female may vary, depending upon the specie of frog and the breeding line. It's not exactly 50/50 chance. Some lines may tend to produce more males than females or the other way around. You can ask the breeder you buy from about this. My all female auratus and the remaining female galactonotus seem to get along just fine in their all lady situation. It depends upon whether you want to go in for breeding them, or if you just want to enjoy them. You can always separate any pair that seems to be mating. Except for perhaps pumilios, I don't think the sex mix matters much. It's rather fun figuring out which is which as they get older, and just watching the show. If you decide you want to breed later on and have all one sex, you can always look around and purchase a mate for one or more of them, although it may take a bit of doing.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

There are many reasons for not mixing Dendrobatids with another genus. Competition for food and space, different temperature and humidity requirements, different lighting requirements are just a few. I've seen a photo of a green anole swallowing a thumbnail dart. It certainly wouldn't be advisable to try in a small tank. Most people don't even advise mixing different species of darts, although it's done successfully by some experienced breeders.

We've been arguing the mixing question for as long as I've been in the hobby. To check on the pro's and con's you can click on the search and type in "mixing." But my advice is as always, enjoy your first darts separately. My own mixing experiences have been in a large palludarium with land and waterways/aquarium sections containing small fish. This has been highly successful, except when I added some red clawed crabs that climbed onto the land, ate the vegetation and annoyed the frogs, although they didn't hurt them. You could also try a small circulating pool with a couple of African Dwarf Frogs, but that would cut your land area down considerably.

How many frogs depends upon the size of the frogs, their differing territorial requirements and aggressive characters. The larger frogs I keep such as the leucomelas, terribilis, auratus and galactonotus utilize all levels of the terrariums. All of mine seem to get along well in groups, but these tanks are 80 gallons or more. I have bred the thumbnail imitators in small groups, and this is great fun to watch. They may raise a few tads to maturity, (although there will be a lot of fights and egg-eating,) and I think they are more bold and active in groups. Pumilios are very territorial and do best in single pairs unless your tank is large enough so that they can stay well separated. I have my four D. reticulatus and the D. fantasticus in separate 30 gallon terrariums. They are breeding and laying eggs and seem to always be out and about. 3 castaneoticus (I lost one) are in a 30 gallon. I find them extremely shy, so they wouldn't be much fun for someone new to the hobby. They are also expensive.

Homer likes the tincs-- I haven't tried them yet. Keep in mind that the cheaper frogs are often the most entertaining as well as colorful. They are also usually among the more hardy and easy to keep. Save the rare, expensive ones for later. (Once you get into darts, there most likely WILL be more to come.)

Good luck and welcome to a great hobby.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus

Thank you for replying!

The reasons not to mix seem quite valid. I can see how some of the faster-moving lizards could outcompete a frog for food. But out of curiosity, may I ask what you are keeping in your large setup? I'm not going to attempt to add a reptile to this terrarium, but it might be a good starting point for research in the future (if I start a large vivarium myself).

Thanks again for the help!
-----
::i believe in joy > http://www.winds.org/nekomi/hope.html

::my homepage > http://www.winds.org/nekomi

My Growing Zoo (Herps coming soon!):

1.0 Husband (Byron) ^_^
0.1 black cat (Shade)
1.2 Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides yellow-gold)
1.1 WC Cockatoo cichlids (A. cacatuoides blue Peru)
3.3 Pygmy corydoras (C. pygmaeus)
2.0 Endlers' Livebearers (P. sp. Endlers)