Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There will be alot of people that are going to disagree with me on this and thats fine.I am in no way a herpatologist and I can't even spell all that well but its all good.
Now,I am sure they are in there own sub species for reasons but I think its a little bazzare.

Out here on the west coast you have the cal king that ranges from baja to mid oregon to utah down to az.It ranges from striped to banded to dotted to dashed to aberrant to melanistic to banana(newport)and still its just a cal king????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????no matter what it looks like, brown belly striped, yellow banded, aberrant,black and white desert phase,on the coast near nerport you can find banana looking striped phase hypoish ,around mendoda there dark melanistic aberrant,doesn't matter they are still just call kings????????????????????????/

Go to the east coast and every fifty miles is a new sub-speacies?Hell, "what side of the canal did you find it on burt"then its a goini x eastern you dumb s.o.b. don't you know nothing says jake?LOL........
I know it just probably seems that way but my god I am sure if there was some work done then there would be some splitting(not that I would want any)done in the west cause the cal kings covers thousands of miles without interuptions?

I would like to hear others thougts on this?I am bored?

L8r shannon

p.s. good example,Tell me how a outer banks is SO differant from a easter? that it should be its OWN sub species?

Shannon

I think you are thinking its more congested than it is. It is congested just not as bad as you make it sound I dont think.

You have your Floridana that inhabits central and southern Florida.

There is Eastern Kings that mainly make up North Florida with lots of intergration in north central Florida and on the east coast of N Florida the intergration goes a little higher in pockets.

There is the Apalachicola King that is a new subspecies. They are in pockets in the panhandle. I dont know if this is widely accepted by the community...scientific or other.

From N. Florida all the way along the Coastal Plains and beyond up to NJ is the range of the Eastern King. The Outer Banks King 'Sticticeps' is by recent study by Krysko not genetically different than the mainland Easterns. They also dont have any Floridana in them as once speculated.

Just west of the Eastern King you have the black King L.g.nigra.

Hope this clears it up for you and I may be off on some of my ranges so corrections are welcome especially from the boys in Florida Sean, Mark, Nick etc...

P.s. Also think of it this way Shannon there probably is much more different habitat and or habitat fragmentation on the East Coast then there is on the west coast (specifically Cal King range). For one people have been carving up the East Coast for a long time so man had played apart in someway Im sure plus there are/were natural barriers that have crept up and have gone away over time etc...Im just theorizing so Im not sure.

Keith
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HI, Shannon. That's an interesting question.

Remember, not too long ago, there were one or two other subspecies in Baja too. I think it's fairly recent they've been put in synonomy with californiae. In se. Arizona, the Cal king meets two other subspecies, the desert, and the Western black king. The desert is actually a grassland species, splendida, and the Western black is very similar to splendida, and could be in that subspecies, imho. The Cal king has a huge range, agreed, but it's basic requirements are met by all environments in that range (I'm an ecology fan).

Keith said there were many different habitats on the East Coast, as compared to West Coast, and I'd have to disagree. The West Coast has many different situations for californiae to adapt to, accounting for the many different morphs/mutations. On the East Coast I see mainly the temperature gradient, resulting in two main subspecies, getula and floridana. I think the Appalachicola king is in an area where the two, maybe even three ssps meet. I'm not a taxonomist, but I doubt it should be a separate ssps. One of my best friends keeps a pair of the Outer Banks kings. They are different looking, but I think they are still an Eastern king, just a color/pattern morph. The black king is from a whole different area of the country, mostly west of the Appalachians, and is not part of the East Coast n/s continuum.

To sum up, I'm relatively new to working with kingsnakes, but like taxonomy, field work, ecology, etc, and I see mainly californiae on the West Coast, and getula and floridana on the East Coast. Californiae has more diversity in color/pattern, and more mutations, partly because of the hobby, but mostly because of it's wide range and diversity of environments. I don't have a problem with the taxonomy and look forward to dabbling in the genetics of the Cal king group.

This is a photo of a splendida x nigrita intergrade from the Santa Cruz Valley, AZ, just south of the californiae range. Pretty different head shape, don't you think....?

The West Coast has many different situations for californiae to adapt to, accounting for the many different morphs/mutations. On the East Coast I see mainly the temperature gradient, resulting in two main subspecies, getula and floridana.

Terry please explain further how you think temps affect or determine the subspecies ? I would think it has more to do with habitat that the animal adapts to as well as temp in that they either become darker or lighter depending on temp, habitat plus many other factors that Im not able to undertsand or dont know about. I do agree that Kings like it a bit warmer as they dont go much further north in eastern and central US than Illinois and NJ. Doesnt California have a temp gradient ? San Fran must be cooler than LA etc...Yet you can find Kings up into Oregon.

I think the Appalachicola king is in an area where the two, maybe even three ssps meet. I'm not a taxonomist, but I doubt it should be a separate ssps.

Terry dont be so quick to discount the Apalachicola King. Dr. Bruce Means has spent years and years anyears studying them and he also has Dr. Kenney Krysko helping him with them and their initial finds are that they are genetically seperate from Floridana and L.g.g. Floridana was no big suprise as their range doesnt extend into the panhandle.

The black king is from a whole different area of the country, mostly west of the Appalachians, and is not part of the East Coast n/s continuum.

I agree and disagree with you on this one. Nigra does intergrade with L.g.g. in numerous states including Georgia, Alabama and probably in SC a little but the Mts do keep them more seperate but it trickles both ways. Nigra are also found in WV. Im sure they intergrade more but Im not sure where without checking some range maps. SO yeah they are out of the south to north thing but they creep into the east adn arent totally out of the picture in regards to L.g.g.

To sum up, I'm relatively new to working with kingsnakes, but like taxonomy, field work, ecology, etc, and I see mainly californiae on the West Coast, and getula and floridana on the East Coast. Californiae has more diversity in color/pattern, and more mutations, partly because of the hobby, but mostly because of it's wide range and diversity of environments. I don't have a problem with the taxonomy and look forward to dabbling in the genetics of the Cal king group.

I again agree and disagree with you here. I dont think Cal have that much more diversity than Eastern Kings. Im speaking in terms of wild animals and not captive stuff. With Cals you have varying ground colors and so do Easterns from Black to reddish or purplish brown and all in between. In Cals you have varying ring widths and ring color as do Easterns. Cals have striped and banded and in betwen individuals where Eastern populations occasionally produce a striped animal its nothing like a the striped Cals nor as common. Easterns do however have some populations of really weird animals (see below pics).

Good post Terry and you are right I may be wrong about the habitat of California compared to the East Coast as Im not super familar with West Coast habitat. I should have posted it as more of a question than a statement.

Keith
F1 juvenile

Wildcaught female Mother to above snake.

Georgia locale animal (wildcaught)

wildcaught S. Carolina animal

Another wildcaught S. Carolina animal

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Old Post
>>The West Coast has many different situations for californiae to adapt to, accounting for the many different morphs/mutations. On the East Coast I see mainly the temperature gradient, resulting in two main subspecies, getula and floridana.
>>

Keith
>>Terry please explain further how you think temps affect or determine the subspecies ? I would think it has more to do with habitat that the animal adapts to as well as temp in that they either become darker or lighter depending on temp, habitat plus many other factors that Im not able to undertsand or dont know about. I do agree that Kings like it a bit warmer as they dont go much further north in eastern and central US than Illinois and NJ. Doesnt California have a temp gradient ? San Fran must be cooler than LA etc...Yet you can find Kings up into Oregon.
>>

ME:
I'm saying the temp gradient affects the subspecies because there's a point where it becomes too cold or too hot for the ssps to maintain it's particular identity. Actually, I don't think the Florida king is that much different from the Eastern. It might not be the temp so much as it is the change in habitat. The FL king may have evolved in s. FL in the area of the Everglades and may be more of a grassland species. Humidity could have something to do with it too. I know the two intergrade over a large area in n. FL, etc, but maybe they occupy slightly different habitats too.

With the Cal king, the main influence is the desert, as opposed to the coast, which has a somewhat different climate. They pretty much have the same conditions in the north as the south of the range because in the summer months, where most activity occurs, the climate is similar. It's hot and dry. But there are variations in the climate that the snakes adapt to over time.

I'm assuming the conditions which create the ssps have to do with these things. I don't have any scientific data, of course. Just my general info about habitat and snake behavior, etc.

Old Post
>>I think the Appalachicola king is in an area where the two, maybe even three ssps meet. I'm not a taxonomist, but I doubt it should be a separate ssps.
>>

Keith:
>>Terry dont be so quick to discount the Apalachicola King. Dr. Bruce Means has spent years and years anyears studying them and he also has Dr. Kenney Krysko helping him with them and their initial finds are that they are genetically seperate from Floridana and L.g.g. Floridana was no big suprise as their range doesnt extend into the panhandle.
>>

ME:
That is an awefully small range, even for a ssps, Keith. I suspect the Apalachicola king got most of its genetic influence from the Eastern king, but possibly some from the Florida, and/or the black king. The fact that they don't occur there now doesn't mean they couldn't have contributed genes in the recent past. Maybe it's an iceage relic pop.

I'm not saying it's not a ssps, just that it doesn't seem logical, being contained within the range of the Eastern and all. Of course it could be a ssps with a greatly reduced range from the past. It reminds me of the Coastal Plains milk. The genes will tell us that it is somewhat different from the others, but different enough for ssps status, the taxonomists will decide, if they can

Old Post
>>The black king is from a whole different area of the country, mostly west of the Appalachians, and is not part of the East Coast n/s continuum.
>>

Keith:
>>I agree and disagree with you on this one. Nigra does intergrade with L.g.g. in numerous states including Georgia, Alabama and probably in SC a little but the Mts do keep them more seperate but it trickles both ways. Nigra are also found in WV. Im sure they intergrade more but Im not sure where without checking some range maps. SO yeah they are out of the south to north thing but they creep into the east adn arent totally out of the picture in regards to L.g.g.
>>
ME:
I agree they intergrade somewhat in the low hills in the southern Appalachians, but they are the same species. Sure there's an exchange of genes, but this is like comparing the desert king, splendida, to the Cal king. It's not really addressing the variation in getula as compared to the variation in californiae. It's not the East Coast vs. West Coast, what I'm trying to say, which is the main question, I think.

Old Post
>>To sum up, I'm relatively new to working with kingsnakes, but like taxonomy, field work, ecology, etc, and I see mainly californiae on the West Coast, and getula and floridana on the East Coast. Californiae has more diversity in color/pattern, and more mutations, partly because of the hobby, but mostly because of it's wide range and diversity of environments. I don't have a problem with the taxonomy and look forward to dabbling in the genetics of the Cal king group.
>>

Keith:
>>I again agree and disagree with you here. I dont think Cal have that much more diversity than Eastern Kings. Im speaking in terms of wild animals and not captive stuff. With Cals you have varying ground colors and so do Easterns from Black to reddish or purplish brown and all in between. In Cals you have varying ring widths and ring color as do Easterns. Cals have striped and banded and in betwen individuals where Eastern populations occasionally produce a striped animal its nothing like a the striped Cals nor as common. Easterns do however have some populations of really weird animals (see below pics).
>>
ME:
I agree to a degree. There's color variation in both ssps. Great pics of some nice color and pattern variation in the Eastern, btw. But californiae has some things going on that the Eastern seems to be lacking. First there's the coastal forms vs. the desert forms in Cal kings. There's also mutations: striped, desert banded, naturally occuring melanistics, hypomelanistics, etc. I think there's some nice variations with Easterns, and some cool snakes like the island forms, etc., but I don't think the genetics is as interesting, until you get into the Apalachicola and FL kings. Then it gets pretty interesting. But are they different ssps, or variations of the Eastern? I'm probably in the minority there.

Are there any genetic mutations, like amel. or hypo, in the Easterns? I've never checked that?

Keith:
>>Good post Terry and you are right I may be wrong about the habitat of California compared to the East Coast as Im not super familar with West Coast habitat. I should have posted it as more of a question than a statement.
>>
>>Keith

ME:
Thanks, Keith, and no problem. You had a nice post too. I love your pics and understand perfectly what you're doing specializing in one kingsnake subspecies. The Eastern king is a beautiful and interesting snake. It is one of the ones I started with before 1988, when I decided to start breeding and specializing in Asian ratsnakes. I have no problem at all with someone wanting to be the best with the animals he/she works with, seeking or giving information, and all the other stuff that's goes along. That's what I'm doing. I want to learn more too, and appreciate the opportunity to discuss with others like-minded. PS: I'm no authority on kingsnakes and have learned a lot from others more knowledgeable. I am willing to be corrected or have someone add to what I say as part of the learning process.

Later...TC

This is all great stuff guys.
But keith,Have you ever been out here to cal?Its not flat?I have found these snakes at below sea level (yes acualy below sea level in death valley)and I find them at over 7000 feet when I am hunting zonata and rubber boas.Now with this kind of diversity I can bet you that there is a huge range of varition(I am not saying that you said there wasn't)in the west coast cal kings.
People have also hacked up the land out here over the last few hundered years also.I guess all I am trying to say is even though there body structure may vary from state to state and there looks are a little differant they are still just cal kings?

In the pic picture (if I was roler)there would be two on the east coast,The eastern and the floridina.outerbanks is eastern and goini is floridina.Nigra is another story and I am not sure were I would place it and thats probably why I am not roler?LOL.

L8r shannon

p.s. great pics btw

nada
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Matt from Minnesota
Cornsnake, Eastern Kingsnake, IL Bullsnake - all girls.
0.1 Crested Gecko "Camey"; 1.0 Crested Gecko "Spots" RIP

Was it ever bred? Are there any breeders working with striped stock?

Bob

One of the things that I think is being forgotten is the fact that the ssp. being discussed on the east coast are from a low land area. This is important especially in Florida where a raise in sea level of a few feet (I think 10-15-ft is the number) will separate huge areas of land by water allowing for separate evolutionary tracks.
Where the Easterns come into Fl. is down the center ridge and in the highlands in the north. Over the rest of their range they are the same while in Florida they have evolved in to the Ssp. we have today.
The Florida king is found in areas in the south of FL that were higher in elevation. Since the Ice Ages, they have of course migrated and spread, but this is where the different Ssp. are theorized to have evolved from by being separated from each other. Florida, for those that do not know, has a high ridge down the center that is divided just south of Orlando by St. John's Marsh. South of the marsh or Lake Okeechobee (depending what barrier you want to use) are where the "Florida" ssp. were from before migrating.
In the north, the Goini were theorized to have been formed by being trapped on an island. With a few different Ssp. on the temporary island they formed a "new" subspecies that we have now. Unfortunatly the original Ssp. have returned with the water gone, to take back the habitat, swamping out the Goini. All three Ssp. mentioned earlier, I believe, contributed to the Goini.
This raise in water levels is also the difference in the Gulf salt Marsh Snake that is common and the Atlantic Salt Marsh Snake that is critically endangered. In the south you have the South Florida Mole King that is isolated still from other Mole kings. The crown snakes in the south end of Florida are in an area of higher elevation I believe, but I am probably wrong on that. There are a few more I can't think of.
To sum up we have the different sub species in the south east because during the time between the ice ages when water levels were higher we had a couple of island and the species were separated while in California you guys lost a few feet of beach and not much else.
At least that is how I interpret what I have read. Though I am probably wrong, at least I have a opinion to be torn apart.
Thanks Jason

Thanks for taking a chance and sharing that info, Jason. I had forgot all about the flooding during the Pleistocene. It makes sense and you're probably right, imo. Later...TC.