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Immediate help PLEASE!!! a little long....

Altimaes300 Jan 15, 2005 10:56 PM

Okay, finally made it to my friends pet store today. I traded one of my nice Cawley red bearded dragons for a juvie savannah and a juvie red ackie. The ackie seemed semi-aggressive, but has already calmed down. I know all the proper husbandry for a bearded dragon, but am unsure about monitors. I have a few care sheets that I will read into tomorrow, but for tonight I had to throw them in cages that are already set up for bearded dragons.

The savannah is very skinny and looks ill. The only reason I took him/her was because I want to nurse it back to health. I need some advice quick. I believe all they have been feeding it is f/t pinkys and fuzzies. It has recently refused food and she claims to have been trying to force feed the monitor. She obviously doesn't know the proper husbandry based on the condition. Her are some of my best guesses of what they were doing wrong. There was no basking site. It's about 15 inches and was kept in some sort of supertall 30g. It had to have about 30" from the floor level to the basking light that probably reached 85 degrees ambient temp if it was lucky.

Here are my questions:

What are some quick fixes to help bring this guy back?

Good subtrates for the monitors?

UVB needed?

List of foods easily accepted by sickly monitors?

List of good foods to give in general?

How and when to force feed this guy?

Temps should be 80-85 and 100-120 or something close, right?

Water bowl neccessary? Will mistings or baths help?

If I had to guess he'd be dead within the week if something isn't done in the next few days. Please give me a hand guys.
-----
Jeff
A Dozen Bearded Dragons
A Dozen Frogs and Toads
0.1 Wife Unnamed....J/K Jenifer
1.1 Northern Pastel Skinks
1.1 Cats (Siamese and Tabby) Hulk and Mighty Mouse
1.1 Chihuahuas Arnold The Governator and Lucy
2.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Cali. Kingsnake
1.2 Veild Chameleons
Arnold8169@charter.net

____

sig file

Edited on January 29, 2005 at 09:25:13 by phwyvern.

Replies (8)

bloodbat Jan 16, 2005 12:04 AM

Your ackie's behavior of calming down already is probably more a sign of stress from relocation than a true calmness. Give it some time to acclimate and then you will see more clearly what its temperment is like.

I keep savs with a 108-115 basking temperature. I generally aim for the higher end of that temperature, but anywhere in there works for me and my savs.

If it was my sav and I was trying to rehab it, this is what I would do. I would set it up on cypress mulch. I would provide a water dish it could drink from and probably fit inside. I would provide a basking site at the above mentioned temperatures. I would make sure it had a hide spot. I would offer it f/t mice. The mice would be about a bit smaller than ones I would offer a healthy, active monitor. I might mist it on occasion if I was unsure it was drinking water. I would not forcefeed it until all other options were exhausted. Forcefeeding often does more harm than good. I might also offer crickets. I would not bother with UVB as I have not used it in many years. I would handle it as infrequently as possible. I would offer food daily.

Good luck
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

Altimaes300 Jan 16, 2005 09:07 AM

Should I keep the lights on 24/7?? I read that some breeders do that. Is it true not to let the temps get below 80? Please let me know.
-----
Jeff
A Dozen Bearded Dragons
A Dozen Frogs and Toads
0.1 Wife Unnamed....J/K Jenifer
1.1 Northern Pastel Skinks
1.1 Cats (Siamese and Tabby) Hulk and Mighty Mouse
1.1 Chihuahuas Arnold The Governator and Lucy
2.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Cali. Kingsnake
1.2 Veild Chameleons
Arnold8169@charter.net

____

sig file

Edited on January 29, 2005 at 09:25:31 by phwyvern.

bloodbat Jan 16, 2005 08:27 PM

I cannot tell you what you should do; I can tell you only what I do or what I might do given the information at hand. It is all my personal opinion and not a steadfast rule.

I do not keep my lights on 24 hours a day. They all have timers. My lights go on about 7-8am and off between 8-9pm. I do so even for animals I am attempting to get healthy.

My temps get below 80 all the time. I believe the key is being able to get warm in the day. For an animal that is ill, I might not let the temps go as low as normal, but then again, I might. It would depend on the animal. I do not suggest you drop it into the 60s or even the low 70s, but in my opinion, keeping it at constant hot temps will probably not help it.
-----
^x^ Bloodbat ^x^
Monitors, monitors everywhere
and all the food they ate.
Monitors, monitors everywhere,
their parents loved to mate.

treemonitors_com Jan 16, 2005 12:22 AM

Hi there,

From the sounds of it, your savanah monitor is severely dehydrated. I would put off attempting to feed the animal, until it is rehydrated. Force feeding an animal is probably the absolute worse thing that you can do for the animal. There is a reason why the animal is not volountarily feeding. Chances are, it is dehydrated, and being dehydrated, it will be very difficult to properly digest. The food can sit in the stomach, and rot, which will only lead to further health complications.

I recommend you set the animal up in an enclosure with a substrate like cypress mulch, a large water bowl, and a closed top(no screen- screen=loss of humidity). I would try spraying the animal several times a day, to encourage the animal to drink volountarily. If this does not work after a few days, nice warm baths, 95F-100F should be offered daily, or bidaily, to encorgage drinking. Once the animal is drinking, and starts to put on weight, you can then try feeding it.

I have found in my experiences with dehydrated, Wild Caught animals, that hydrating an animal before feeding has worked out to great success. Reptiles are able to go somewhat long periods without food. Unfortunately, most people see a skinny(freshly imported animal) monitor as being a starved animal. In all actuality, the animal is not starving, but is severely dehydrated.

I think that hydration is the key to success in wc monitors. I have pieced together a series of articles on my website that addresses WC imported animals, although I have implemented these protocols/methods towards tree monitors, I think that the same can be applied to all monitors... Good Luck, have a great day!!

Bob
Quarantine and Hydration protocol for imported monitors

SHvar Jan 16, 2005 12:53 AM

VARANUS ALBIGULARIS, by Shawn Henderson (avid varanifile and monitor hobbyist)

Varanus (latin-monitor lizard), Albi=white, gularis=throat. The whitethroated monitor is a complex of subspecies, V.a.Albigularis, V.a.Microstictus (true blackthroat), v.a.Angolensis (Angolan whitethroat), V.a.Ionidesi (blackthroat found in the pet industry commonly, named for the famous snakeman ionides). They range as a species from one local area to the next by a few miles in color, pattern, and size as an adult. They are a large species of monitor that at any size is one of the most powerful species, and very imposing captives, they have the best or worst tail whip of any monitor (depends if you are on the recieving end), very very powerful jaws especially adapted to crush giant land snails, turtles, and tortoise. They are semi arboreal yet spend half of their time underground in burrows, or searching the ground for prey. They are well known by African bird watchers as the most prevalent predator on nesting birds, and song birds, they will in fact set an ambush next to a nest of eggs or chicks to await the return of the parents, eat both parents then the eggs or chicks. They are also known for living in large rock piles hence the name "rock or tree leguaan. They are greatly adapted diggers and can burrow like a highly skilled team of miners in hard packed dirt. They are found as far north as southern Egypt and south to the tip of the cape, they range from white to yellowish, to reddish, brown, black, with banded, spotted, or almost solid patterns. They vary from 4ft to over 7ft depending of location in relation to the equator and availability of food, lack of predators. They range from 7lbs to over 35lbs in weight, and can very destuctive, as well tear poorly designed cages apart and furniture. They posess a set of sharp teeth in the front as well the majority of their middle and back teeth like other African monitors molarize with age or wear rounded. They have a horribly powerful bite with the ability to crack or crush bone, they have a habit of hanging on without releasing, regardless of attempts to remove them. They are a common predator of snakes, especially venomous cobras and vipers (which they act a bit less confident in approach). They are also known to eat other species of monitor from young niles to the bosc or savannah monitors which is Africas smallest species (when they are found in the same areas). They are known to live in a semi-arid to arid grassland, woodland environments (hence the term savannah monitor, not to be confused with the American pet trade savannah monitor, V exanthematicus).
They are rewarding captives if given alot of room, deep digable dirt substate in which to tunnel and burrow under, their natural habitat has a high iron content soil with little to no organic material (leaves, tree bark, vegetation, these type subtrates hold too much water and spoil or get moldy). They do best on a rodent based diet from birth through adulthood with additions of crickets, roaches, superworms, chicken peeps, quail, and occaisional amounts of meat (ground turkey is common as the San Diego Zoo turkey diet, a mixture of steamed bonemeal, turkey and a crushed Centrum one a day vitamin), and some other foods, all insects should be supplemented with a good quality calcium supplement such as Miner-all or herpti-cal with Vit D3 (actually a sterol not a vitamin).
They enjoy a very high basking temperature (surface temp) of 130-170f plus degrees. The basking spot should be made from plywood as it holds a consistant temp, is inexpensive, not too heavy to hurt your animal if it falls on it, and is very sturdy (untreated wood, thats without arsenic which leaches into the soil etc). These animals should be kept in multiple cages from 4x2x2ft to 10x4x5ft or much larger as they grow (which if cared for properly happens very very fast, anywhere from 4-5 ft in their first year is possible), cages should be waterproof inside to resist moisture from damp substrate, and tough surfaces to resist powerful monitors claws.
They require a fresh source of water to drink as they need it (if kept properly they rarely ever drink, and rarely ever soak), and if they want to,adding a soaking water source at their disposal. Usually screen top cages cause a big problem with dehydration which shows as the want to soak alot, it also manifests itself by showing up down the road in the form of lack of appetite, frequent drinking, crystalization of uric acid in the kidneys almost no matter how much soaking occurs and eventually death by kidney failure, usually explained by vets to greiving owners as mysterious kidney failure (occurs in so many captive monitors kept in open top cages and no proper substrate). Also among health problems there are 2 other common occurances in captivity, one is liver failure which is caused by long term low basking temps, the lack of ability to properly digest food/use available energy from food by storing massive amounts of fat then mobilizing it suddenly during a fast causing the liver to be soaked and overcome by "fatty liver disorder" or hepatic lipidosis. This was formerly blamed on feeding a rodent diet high in protien, but found to be a serious husbandry problem in all reptiles not diet. The other problem is impacted digestive systems, the happens when again too low of temps and dehydration are mixed with a seriously obese animal in many cases that cannot properly digest or pass food or objects such as rocks, wood, substrate etc through their digestive system, it is a serious husbandry issue and a sign that changes were needed a long time ago. You should find a good experienced herp vet through Herpvets.com or ARAV websites as well ask around the reptile community and ask each vet many detailed informed questions before choosing one. Basking spots can be made into "Retes Stacks", or pyramid shaped unattached stacks with a tight space for your monitor to squeeze into allowing it to thermoregulate in multiple temperature zones while feeling secure.
These animals can cause severe damage when biting or scratching and bites should not be bragged about and if possible avoid reporting them to even medical authorities as animal bite info is collected every year and used by politcal groups against our hobby in local and state laws. Not to say you shouldnt seek medical help but to not bring bad legislation to our wonderful hobby, bites happen so its best to report it to be safe as all pet hobbyists know if it has teeth it can bite.
Note: although if kept properly they can be rewarding captives 99% are wild caught and can carry high loads of internal parasites as well ticks and mites from being kept in improper conditions, true captive bred and born specimens are very rare and expensive but are the best choice for captives as they have never experienced freedom in the wild therefore dont miss it as well imports are many times very badly abused. They can take time to learn to trust their caretakers in captivity as all animals have individual personalities. These lizards can be bred in captivity sucessfully if offered the right resources, they are also very territorial and are known to be cannibalistic if not offered choices and resources. They are also born with the knowledge and weapons to kill one another very very quickly as adults, therefore pairs should be identified by sex at small sizes such as above hatchlings and raised together to teach them to communicate and speak the same language, pairs should also be offered very very large enclosures to facilitate their need to escape one another at times. These lizards are also known to be avid lizard specialists as all monitors are at eating hatchlings, and smaller neighbors, as well eggs of any species available.
Eggs should be incubated artificially at temperatures around 83-86f in perlite as it is a more consistent and an easy medium to use. It takes about 6 months to incubate anywhere from 20-52 eggs from V. albigularis in a clutch, the eggs are around 2.25 inches in length, and they hatch at about 9 inches long. As hatchlings they should be fed daily the diet mentioned earlier in this species plate/caresheet, they are known to be bottomless pits when it comes to feeding and can put away huge amounts that seem to disappear with ease. These animals can sucessfully reproduce at the age of 6 months old if kept somewhat close to correctly as demonstrated by many hobbyists in the past.
Basking lights can be made sucessfully from standard outdoor halogen flood lightbulbs bought from any local hardware store as they have no need for overpriced UV bulbs sold by reptile suppliers as they get all required nutrients from a proper diet, the wattage of those floodlight bulbs varies with needs and cages ( the author uses all 45 watt halogen outdoor flood bulbs arranged in multilight assemblies to properly heat the entire snout to vent size of the animal). There is no danger from monitors climbing on hot light bulbs if offered the correct temperature gradient and the ability to properly heat up without lying on the bulbs, as well thermal burns happen when a basking "hot-spot" is too small and the animal spends too much time basking under it in cool conditions.

Altimaes300 Jan 16, 2005 10:14 PM

Okay, I'm not sure I made this clear at the begining of the post. The lady that I got this guy from said that she has had him for some period of time now. It stopped eating all together. She force fed it frozen/thawed pinkys and it threw them back out of his mouth. I went to the store and bought baby food and canned monitor food. I mixed them together in a syringe and force fed him. I tried soaking him, I tried bathing him, he would not drink. I am afraid that he will die in the next couple of days so I thought it was neccessary to try this. I will try again tomorrow I guess. I hope he makes it. I am going to also try and give him a dose of parazap in case he is overloaded with parasites.

Jeff
-----
Jeff
A Dozen Bearded Dragons
A Dozen Frogs and Toads
0.1 Wife Unnamed....J/K Jenifer
1.1 Northern Pastel Skinks
1.1 Cats (Siamese and Tabby) Hulk and Mighty Mouse
1.1 Chihuahuas Arnold The Governator and Lucy
2.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Cali. Kingsnake
1.2 Veild Chameleons
Arnold8169@charter.net

____

sig file

Edited on January 29, 2005 at 09:25:49 by phwyvern.

joeysgreen Jan 17, 2005 03:43 AM

The above posts are all great when it comes to proper husbandry and palative care.
However it is hard to assume your sav. is dehydrated, or emaciated, or exactly what condition it is in; critical or not. The truth is that we don't even have a picture but we do know that it's history is poor. It's great that you plan to save this monitor from it's pet store prison but begin by getting a proper examination from an experienced herp vet. Without this important step you may be trying to nurse back a monitor that needs much, much more. If it turns out that the above posts are exactly what your sav. needs and nothing more, then at least you know where to start. Good luck with it,

ps, one last question, but why would you leave one of your bearded dragons at a place that you need to rescue herps from?

Altimaes300 Jan 17, 2005 09:43 PM

Well,

The store was ran by someone experienced in exotic animals. He quit, took half the store with him and opened his own store leaving the owner to put her daughter in charge. She is a nice person, but doesn't know the proper husbandry for most anything but snakes and fish. I know her personally and she really wanted a bearded dragon. I traded her a dragon for the ackie and she asked me to take the monitor because she had no luck with it. She has called me at least 6 times in the past 2 days to ask me questions about the dragon to be sure she has everything right. This is her personal pet.

For the monitor. He laid like he was dead all day yesterday. I force fed him a mixture of baby food and monitor food. He threw most of it up about an hour later, but I noticed that he was slightly more aware of his surroundings to day which is an improvement. I've bathed him several times, along with misting him many times also. Today I force fed him parazap to help kill what I believe to be excess amounts of parasites.

As far as his condition....he looks like he's worn out. His body seems to be in okay condition until you reach his backbone. He you can clearly see the outline of his bones in his lower back and his tail is more triangular than round sort of outlining the bone structure. I fear that he will pass in the next week if he doesn't start to eat or dring on his own. He actually stayed near the basking area today so maybe he's enjoying the 100-120 temps that he dearly needs. Again, I haven't seen any big improvements, but I will continue to work with him. I am not going to take him to the vet as he was a rescue. I figured I'd do the right thing and take him out of an environment in which he would surely die. It might sound harsh, but if a $20.00 neglected lizard doesn't make it I will sleep good at night knowing I tried to do something for him.
-----
Jeff
A Dozen Bearded Dragons
A Dozen Frogs and Toads
0.1 Wife Unnamed....J/K Jenifer
1.1 Northern Pastel Skinks
1.1 Cats (Siamese and Tabby) Hulk and Mighty Mouse
1.1 Chihuahuas Arnold The Governator and Lucy
2.4 Leopard Geckos
0.1 Cali. Kingsnake
1.2 Veild Chameleons
Arnold8169@charter.net

____

sig file

Edited on January 29, 2005 at 09:26:52 by phwyvern.

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