Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some of you may remember the trouble that I was having with my mali Godzilla just before Xmas. well he went back to the breeder to see what was wrong. My guy at the pet store kept him for a few days and he went from doing nothing to eating and being normal for a couple of days then went back to sleepin on his back and on his side and Jay thought he was dead a one point but he wasn't. Went back to the breeder and I haven't seen Jay to ask if Zilla was ok or what happened. the breeder to Jay that I could take one of the other ones they had at the shop at no cost and if Zilla turned out OK then I could have him back too.

About a week and a half ago I go to the shop and pick out the most active baby mali (out of the 2 they had). I take him home. The shop has them in a 5 gal on cypress mulch (just a little). I take home "The Deuce" and put him in his own 10 gal with a hide and a brick on the basking spot so that part of the brick was under he basking spot so that he could be in the varying degrees of heat. I feed him new food everyday (bok choy, endive, etc) and twice (ony had him for a week and a half) put some calcium supp on the food. Been eating fine, poopin fine and everything. Always active and constantly moving to different areas of the tank. LIked being held, ate fine throughout the day. Nothing ever seemed wrong.

Yesterday he got somewhat light in color, just like Zilla did a week before he had problems. I noticed that yesterday he didn't eat much but he did eat. I didn't get to watch him much yesterday but I did see him around 1:30pm and he was on the brick hangin out. (I wasn't around much ( bed at 4am, back at work at 7 then outta work at 2am next morning....)

Today I got up and wifey fed him then we left. Got some food and went to the pet store to get some food for the snakes and another light for the other Uros cause one of the three blew. Get home and Deuce is just hangin out. I picked him up and he got stiff....just like Zilla was going. I got nervous but we had company so I didn't want to make a big deal of it (wifey is a preggo and she woulda started crying). Later - he's on the brick and fell off sideways onto his back. Wifey thought it was funny at first but then called me cause she didn't think something was right. Put him back on the brick and a little while later he did it again and then we knew we had a problem. I turned out the light and figured I would get ahold of Debb, caused we've talked before - hence the paging debb thread....

it's been just a few hours since I emaile and posted that thread for debb - he died. I went to check on him a just a few minutes ago (before starting this thread) and he's not moving. I think he's sleeping. i touch his back - usually pops his head up - nothing. I pick him up - he's stiff.

WTF is going on here. The other mali didn't have trouble for a coulpe of months and we all thought that it was because he was in with the other Uros that were bigger. So I put Deuce in his own 10 gal until he grows a bit to be able to go in the big tank with the other ones. I guess I wont get that chance. WTF am I doing wrong.

Wifey and I decided before she went to sleep that we were gonna bring him back to the shop tomorrow and give up on babies.... Guess that's irrelevant at this point huh?

This is going to crush wifey....

quick little background. I got my Yellow CB (yes confirmed CB) Saharan as a baby over a year ago from the first clutch of them. 4 months ago I got the Ornate and both of those two are doing AWeSOME. I also have a gecko that I have had for 5 years and 2 snakes. This is my 7 reptile, 6th being Godzilla. The only rep that I ever had any trouble with was Zilla and now euce. What is my problem with baby mali's?

sorry for the long post....

ps..i do not know if both of the mali's were from the same clutch or if any others from the breeder have had problems....The breeder is Regal Reptiles and they are well known for quality herps and all my uros have come from them...as well as my gecko.

If both animals got sick after using this brick, it is possible that the brick itself is toxic? I have heard of cases where lizards have died because bricks sometimes contain toxic substance which are part of the production process. It is very possible that the baby was affected much faster than the adult due to size difference.
You should also completely disinfect everything to make sure there isn't a microbial infection that affected them both.
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1.1 Mali Uromastyx (Ra and Isis)

>>If both animals got sick after using this brick, it is possible that the brick itself is toxic?

I don't think that would be it - I'm pretty sure it was lead in the cement that was the problem, and it would take more time to affect the uros. Of course, they were babies, and they might be way more sensitive to that sort of thing, I don't know. But my gut feeling is that it's something else.

In any case, definitely disinfect. Maybe someone else has an idea what the problem could be, but I don't know. If it's from the same clutch from the same breeder, maybe that's the problem somehow. For your next uro, maybe try for a long term captive adult from a different source. Also, if you do try another baby, use a larger temporary tank. Ten gallons is too small to get a good temperature gradient (though the brick stack helps). If there isn't enough of a gradient, the added stress could worsen any existing problems.

I'm so sorry you've had such a bad run of luck - I hope it works out better next time!!
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
2.0.1 Uromastyx Dispar Maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.2 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser, Leeloo, and Sprocket)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)
And several miscellaneous community fish

i called the breeder today and he said that none of the others from that clutch have had problems. He asked if I had fed it any bugs and I said no. He said that they needed to have some bugs (crickets/mealworms) and I mentioned that I only had him for 2 weeks so that wouldn't be it anyway. He said that it sounded like it ate something too big because babies have a very thin palate on their upper part of their mouth and it is possible that something happened where it caused some brain damage. I said that may have been possible with the first one cause it was on millet and sand but this one is on newspaper and I have fed it only greens and not even included the stem pieces cause they were too "thick" and I didn't want him to not be able to down it. He said that this was something that I shoudl take up with Jay (pet store guy) and that there wasn't much he could say. I made it clear to him that I have had the ornate and saharan since they were babies (over a year for the saharan) and never had a problem. THis took him a bit off guard cause I am sure that he wanted to sum it up as inexperience but he didn't know what else to say.

I can def tell you that I will not be getting another baby mali again cause I don't want to take a chance on hurting it. I am going to look heavily into getting a red saharn from Doug Dix as we have wanted one of those for some time but took the baby mali at a good price from the shop and that gave us 3 different kinds of uros.

I just feel like such a failure. The worst prt it I have NO IDEA what I could possibly have done wrong. I thought that I was doing everything right since I have had the other two for so long without issue. doesn't make any sense.

first one didn't have a brick at all. This brick was totally disinfected.

I read your post and am so sorry for your loss. You have had much success it sounds like so this could be a case of bad stock. I also noticed you mentioned using a brick for basking. I have read that sometimes this sort of material can contain lead. Lead is deadly to these little guys. I am not sure how the lead poisoning presents itself as far as symptoms, may be a question for an exotics vet in your area. Just a thought, best of luck in future.

yeah I wont be taking any chances with a brick in the future. There isn't one in the 4x2x2 cage - all wood and reptile made hides from stores (and a buddha statue ). But the first one didn't have a brick in there with him and this one died within 6 hours of first indication of a problem. I thought something wasn't right yesterday morning when I put the food in and he had n interest and he got stiff really quickly....

No more babies for me...

I'm sorry your uro died.

I know how it feels since Iris just passed away last night too.

Maybe it was because of the cypress mulch, I've heard its a bad substrate for them.

Babies are supposed to be on newspaper or paper towel.
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2 Mali Uromastyx-Ares & Apollo
2 Bearded Dragons- Draco & Hades
1 Saharan Uromastyx-Iris
1 Leopard Gecko-Kalypso
1 Tokay Gecko-Sid Vicious
1 Tarantula-Peter Parker
1 Amazon Red Head Parrot-Pancho
1 African Gray Parrot-Keya
1 Dog-Cheeka
3 Fish-no names
1 Beta Fish-also no name
1 Zebra Finch-Beeps

sorry for your loss i know that must suck, but how do u know these lil guys are coming from a real breeder, he can just be calling himself a breeder but is just selling wild caught babies or juvies, thats always done out there in this hobby and especially in reptile shows and pet shops, u should always go with the recommended breeders like lindsay pike from urotopia, and doug dix from deerfernfarms , from what i know i've never heard of real or good breeders selling to pet stores, just some advice because most likely your not the one doing anything wrong, they just might be wild caught poor lil guys already stressed out and full of parasites, because trust me alot of pet stores will get lil just hatched babies wild caught and say they are captive bred, so don't blame yourself too much , just some advice
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1.1.0 cb red saharan uromastyx 0.0.1 cb egyptian occelated uromastyx 0.0.1 cb mali uromastyx

you're most cetainly right. I can't be sure but I trust my guy at the shop and he said they were from the breeder at Regal... from now on I will not take any chances. I will DEFINATELY buy only from a personal breeder from now on. thank you

You're very welcome! After my experience, I did a search on them and surprisingly didn't come up with any other "horror stories" either. Very odd.

And I know what you mean - I had to freeze my little ones in order to return them to the dealer at the show. I had the first two kept at my boyfriend's house so I wouldn't be reminded.
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~ Vamppire
Queens, New York City

You said for certain that the brick was cleaned... how and with what are you cleaning? Bricks are very porous and I wanted to toss out a wild guess that if you were cleaning with something like a bleach or ammonia that had been soaked into the objects. Ammonia is/was used to kill things like insect specimens and I could imagine something volatile like that (vapor harmful warnings) acting quickly on small animals in contained environments.

boiled in water then soap and water then microwave a week before I took him home. - nothing harmful

Nikon,

I am sorry that I did not see this post (or your page) until today. I am sorry to hear about your mali and have sent you an email.

thanks debb. I haven't got your email. Even if you got back to me the minute I posted/emailed I don't think that it would have made any difference anyway. He went downhill so quickly that by the time I could have done anything we would have already passed.

So sorry to hear you lost another lil guy. Very sad.

I just wanted to comment about bricks, I have used bricks in all my enclosures, for many different type lizards for years, with no problems.

I don't feel it was brick related. Could have been something transmited from one uro to the other (disease, parasite, illness) related ???

I'm just very sorry! But remember if you have a beef with a particular person/ dealer, you can't do it here, it has to be done privately. Did not want to have to say that now, but I also want your posts to be read by all of our buddies here. And if names are being thrown around they will have to be removed, and that would not be cool

I would scrub the heck out of everything, before bringing in a new little friend.

And no you do not suck, you sound very caring and concerned as well as upset. You will make an excellent uro parent

Don't give up , hang in there, take care,
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Eve / PHEve

I am so sorry. I would also like to support the idea that if you "sucked" you wouldn't care, and you obviously do. You can only do your best!

I am not sure what the problem is, but the behaviour you are describing definitely sounds like a neurotoxin. By any chance did you use the same calcium or vitamin supplement with both of them? ie, out of the same container? It *could* be possible that somehow the supplement became tainted... The babies are effected so much more quckly it is scary. I fear for my little one all the time.

Other than that I would look at exactly what you are feeding, though if you are feeding the adults the same thing that may rule that out. Microbial infections that attack the bloodstream can on occasion also cross over into the brain and have similar effects as neurotoxins, since that is in effect what the microbes would release as waste product.

I am not sure, but dehydration may also exhibit similar symptoms. The babys can dehydrate extremely quickly, and if there was not a cool enough place in the tank to go to, they would lose water quickly. My vote would be for some sort of toxin in the environment though. Do you burn candles near this tank but not the others? Or anything like that?

Personally, I would take the drastic measure with the tank and bleach the H*ll out of it, and anything non-porous in it you want to reuse, then let everything sit out for a few months to air. Then you know there is nothing left in there before you use it again. Also, though I don't think it was an issue here, a 10 gallon really isn't big enough for a good temp gradient.

Good luck with everything, my sincerest condolences, losing the little guys sucks, and there is no other way to say it. I am glad you are not giving up on the Uros all together though, they are such wonderful family members.

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin

Riddle me this.. (always wanted to use that line)
As far as the supplememt..
I am using Miner-all (yellow top) and I have had the container for almost a year now. I have used it for all four of the uros and am still using it with the 2 I have. The container has been kept closed by their tank. I was recently given "Jurassi Fruit" from my pet store guy cause I was talkin about the difficulty of feeding them with the supplement - as soon as they taste it they dig for the greens without it. He told me I should try this stuff and gave me the bottle. I DID NOT use this stuff with Zilla and only with the most recent one (Deuce) and with the two others. Could there be a problem with the Miner-all but it isn't affecting the two larger ones and only the babies? I don't think that it could have anything to do with the Jurassi Fruit cause hat is something new and this happened to both Mali's.
As far as the food - all greens without the stems, even the thick stems that run up the middle of the leaf. Occasionally I will give them some banana but the staple is greens - endive, bok choy, escarole (sp?), kale and the like (I have a priontout of the list from Deer Fern Farms). I will also give them occasional crickets but I never gave any crix to the Deuce - he was on strictly greens.
I do not think that it was anything to do with the stuff in the cage but I am leaning more towards the gradient heat in the 10 gal. Couple of things that don't make much sense with that though.... They were always in the hot spot. Neither one really left the hot side of the cage. Deuce was only in the 10 gal and he hardly everwent to the cool side of the cage and stayed very very close to the basking spot all the time. Zilla was in a 4'x2'x2' enclosure and rarely left the hot spots in there too. If they were overheating - why would they not move? I also tried to soak them and they never attempted to drink anything while in the water. I would think that if they were too hot they would move and if they were dehydrated they would drink.
the other thing that really baffles me is that the same thing happened to 2 different Mali's, at two different times and in 2 very different cages. the only thing they had in common was the breeder.

thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to read all this and post suggestions. It is frustrating cause I thought that I was doing everything right and having 2 others since they were small doing fine and now 2 pass even though I am doing the same thing to all....

That is a riddle!

It sounds like it will probably not be determined what the issue was. I am sorry it happened though.

Elizabeth
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1.0 Mali Uro Archimedes
0.0.1 Egyptian Uro Zuberi Mosca Khu (Mosca)
0.0 Fish
0.1 Sulcata Minnie
1.1 Iguanas Flik and Loki
0.1 Newfoundland Jasmine
0.1 Feline Winter
Indiana & Wisconsin