Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was reading a thread from earlier last week and wanted to reopen the discussion. I am just getting into breeding and I have assessed the situation. It seems to me that it takes more than 2 years to really turn a profit. Which means that people that are constantly looking for the "quick buck" have a hard time making it. My question is, has anyone really made real money off of their snakes. I'm not talking speculation or theory, but has anyone actually turned a significant profit? It would seem like if you plan carefully for the long run after three or four years you should be able to make good money.

For example...I bought 1.1 pastels and a CB adult female (2000g). My total investment was about $3000 including a small rack to keep them in. Next year I will breed the adult female and male pastel and hopefully get a clutch with some pastels. Assuming I get even two pastels I should be able to make back at least half my $. The next year maybe the second half. The third year would be time for super pastels. Assuming by then the price for super pastels has dropped to $3000, I should still easily be turning a small profit while keeping the breeder snakes which would be worth money if I ever wanted "out". Also, my cousin bought a spider male so I can always "borrow" him to try to produce some "Bumble bees"

What do you guys think...I post a picture of my pastels but I haven't quite figured how to do that yet

1.0 Brown back
1.1 pastel (0.1 nerd line, 1.0 bell line)
0.1 Huge Female
3.3 expected hatchlings (someday)

Your scenario sounds like you have a good chance of starting to turn a small profit in 3 years. However, that's a long way from making enough to live off of. I think the people who are making enough that they could be living well off raising ball pythons full time for the most part have invested very heavily in them from other sources (i.e. other species or non animal income) or have grown slowly over many years.

Invest for the long run, be prepaired for a lot of hard work and not anticipate any profit for 3 years, simply expenses as you've always got to be reinvesting in yourself.

I plan on going full time within the next two years. In order to do this, I have spent a significant amount of money and continue to do so.

This year alone, I have bought albino's, pastels, het pieds, spider (will be here on Thursday) and the major key to being able to make enough money to pay the bills, I've now purchases over 40 females this year. All CB, ranging from 60 grams to 1800 grams most are possible hets. Two years from now I plan on having 50 cluches hatch. I'm also in the process of looking to purchase all of the normal female balls from two breeders this year (should be around 150) These females will go my current breeding stock plus I hope to pick up a mojove and clown this year.

I will be holding back nearly every animal I produce until I go full time, I will sell a few, not for the cash, but to simply get my name out there and build some references.

Yes you can make money at breeding snakes...You can make money at anything...Just got to be dedicated and give it your all...Is it a quick buck?? Not really...Can you make a lot of money...Yea, if you spend a lot of money on your initial investment...Let me ask all of you who are reading this a question...What business can someone start that they make back their whole investment in 1 yr.? 2 yrs.? Or even 3 yrs.? I have grown up in a family that has numerous small business's...None of these have made back their initial investments over night...Not that they don't do well, but it takes time for ANY type of business to turn a profit day in and day out...You have to build up your rep. and clientele base...Which ain't always easy...No matter what you sell or what service you offer...People will continue to come back to you each and everytime not for what you are offering, but for YOU...You think RDR sells all his snakes because he's the only one selling them...NO!! He sells them because he has built up and impeccable rep. that he backs up 100% and that's why people are waiting for a yr. or more for balls that he will produce (Plus he does have stuff that no other has).The reason to start a business is to work for yourself and ENJOY what you are doing...If you don't enjoy it, you ain't gonna last long enough in it to make any kind of money...Just like anything else...It takes it to make it...So the more you spend the more you'll end up making...People crack me up who buy a Pastel and think that they are going to make $20k with their one Pastel male and 6 normal girls over night...Yes, if you get real lucky it could happen...But don't count on it...That's what happened with the Spiders this season...Their MV got cut in half 2 months into the season...Why?? Because everyone has Spiders coming out of their ears...My question is why didn't all those breeders hold back all their females and what not to raise up and breed into other projects...But what did they do?? They got scared because there were so many out there and started undercutting ea. other to try and sell theirs...And what happened...RDR, NERD, and other well KNOWN breeders still got the most for theirs because of what I said in the beginning...When a business in general always has a "SALE" or something like that, it makes the business look unstable and people will start to question how solid that business is...If they are always having deals, maybe they need to pay bills and may shut down at any time...That brings me to the next point...If you can't afford the morph...Don't buy it!! You are not doing anyone a favor when you buy a $15k cinnamon that you can barely make credit card payments on...Powerfeed it and breed it in 7 months to some females...Then sell the few cinnamon balls that you produce for dirt cheap prices so you can pay off your original male Cinnamon that you still have outstanding debt for...That kind of crap is what leads to all these posts on ks asking... "Is the market crashing"...If you can't afford a certain morph...Than start with something lower...Buy hets. or what ever and work your way up to what you want...It may not be what you want, but it will be the smartest move...Regardless of if I get eggs or not this season all my bills are paid...Yes, I'll be upset because I would like to see something hatch out nice...But I'm not relying on producing some morphs to pay off my snakes...They can sit in their rack for yrs. if that's how long it takes me to produce anything and I won't be sweating it because I don't buy something unless I have the cash for it...I don't believe in spreading yourself thin in just one type of investment...But..The market isn't going anywhere...It will still be just this crazy in the next 4 yrs. as it is right now...Just too many combos out there and new morphs to work with...I enjoy working with ball pythons...They are the only boid that I am going to work with...I don't have the most expensive morphs out there, but I do have nice snakes and they have all come from very rep. breeders...I take pride in my small collection and enjoy cleaning, breeding, feeding, and photographing them...It's my HOBBY and a business too...But anyone that has or starts a small business that truely loves what they do will tell you that it's their hobby and being at work is just having the opportunity to do something that they love everyday...I bet a lot of you will agree/disagree with what I've said above...Most probably won't even read it...I know I wouldn't...But it just irritates me to keep see the same stupid posts keep getting posted on ks..."Can you make a living at breeding snakes??"..."Is the market crashing??"..."Where do you see the Spider market etc. in the next blah, blah, blah??"...Honestly, who cares...If you are in it solely for the money the do us all a favor and get out of it...Because that's the wrong reason...People want people that are really interested in ball pythons and really care about them to be the ones breeding them...They want to see posts on the forums that are like..."Check out my new ball"..."Pics of my spider hypo"..."How do I build a..."..."Help with ball getting it to feed"...Or stuff like that...They don't want to see some post ,by some dirtbag in it solely for the cash, that says something that is solely related on money aspect of breeding balls...If you have bills to pay and need a steady income...GET A REAL JOB!! WE ALL GOT ONE!! DO YOU??
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www.bustyballpythons.com

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sig file edited for tos violation. [phw 8/12/04]

If your sick of the question, don't answer it! Better yet don't read it. Nobody is making you read or answer anything. I do agree that this is a hobby first and a money maker second, but it is obvious from your attitude that you aren't making any money and are scared by other people getting into the market because they are eating into your profit made by overinflated prices. The reality of the situation is, with out the "small timers" spending too much money for the "cinnamon pastel" or whatever, nobody would be getting that much money for them. It is the general population that drives the market, not the big breeders. Just ask them who they sell more snakes to, most aren't sold to other big breeders.

Personally, I think it would be better if there were no morphs over $2000. I mean really, it is still just a ball python and eventually there will be a ton of them around. People might still make a premium off of snakes that look spectacular, but not the $20,000 they are getting now. As supply catches up to demand, prices will go down, you can't argue your way out of that one. Right now, the people making money have been keeping the demand up by finding more morphs and creating new combos, but what then. There isn't an infinite supply of morphs out there and once they are all established and explored the market will return to realistic porportions. I don't think it will ever "crash" simply because ball pythons make awesome pets and people are always looking for something unusual. But I don't think the market can be maintained for another 20 years at it's current pace.
Bottom line is, it isn't any harder to produce mojaves than it is to produce normals, so once demand is met the price will level out (take a look at the baseball card market of the mid to late 1990s and compare it to now)
This is my opinion, but I still invested in this "hobby" anyway. Why? Because I love ball pythons and have kept them as pets for almost 10 years now. If I can produce some cool looking snakes and make a little money at it, I think it is worth a try.

I've seen reason in both these last two posts, but personally, unless you are independantly wealthy you won't make bou cou bucks in a hurry doin' this. I, like some here, am not interested in becoming wealthy raising and breeding balls. I started out with my normals 13 years ago because I like snakes and the ol' lady don't. So we compromised on a small docile one. I haven't had a batch of eggs in 6 or 7 years simply because I worked and couldn't spend the time with it. I'm now 100% disabled through the VA, and have the time, although I am limited to a fixed income. Some day soon I'll get around to playin' with morphs, and will start with hets simply because they are less expensive. I like the snakes, never was much for money. Must be the Old Hippie in me. Whichever way you choose to go, good luck in your endevours (sp). As a hobby it's all a little less intense.

You are right...I haven't made any money at this...This is my first breeding season...One of two things...You must of not read my post closely or you are one of the ones I'm talking about...Either way it doesn't matter...I said what I wanted and that's that...You can agree or disagree and regardless, I'll still be able to sleep well at night...I enjoy keeping ball pythons and had some as pets way before I even knew they came in different colors and what not...They make neat pets and are fun to photograph..
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www.bustyballpythons.com

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sig file edited for tos violation. [phw 8/12/04]

n/p
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www.bustyballpythons.com

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sig file edited for tos violation. [phw 8/12/04]

O-Tay!

You think the Big Boys breed hundreds of Ball's because they just like them? If there wasn't $$ to be made, most people would not be breeding them, or even keeping them. I've been keeping snakes for 25 years, and never thought of a Ball to be an exciting or personable snakes species to keep (until I seen it can be profitable). I enjoy keeping any snake species, but if there was no $$ in it, I would be keeping/breeding something other than Ball's, and so would the "Big Boys".

BTW: The Ball's have actually grown on me in the past year, and I do enjoy keeping them, but I would not be keeping more than one or two pair if I could not make $$ at it.
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Chad Bachman

To each his own, I guess

It's the truth. Some people would still be keeping & breeding them, but most would not if they couldn't make good $$ at it.

How many breeder's kept & bred large amounts of Ball's before the morphs started showing up? It's all a $$ thing, and there is nothing wrong with that.
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Chad Bachman

....2 snakes and a plastic box........

....I know alot of people that make tens and even hundred thousand a year...and they still have a "real" job too.....

why?...overhead for insurance and taxes would kill their "snake money" and snakes are NOT reliable....they will not breed every year if you need them to.....

also......they blow all the :snake " money on more :snake stuff"....

.....I know a guy that got at LEAST $15,000 this last year from a free snake and some females.......wow........and has spent it all..........

I know I make enough to cover my snake bills and then some...so I am growing again....grew before with corns...lost..grew..lost/sold.....grow again......

in it for fun and money....hey yea.......

as for the "big boys"...yea....they are out there making money and working hard....who?...Ian Gniazdowski,,,Mark and Kim Bell...,and Brian Barczyck(forget his wife's name at the momment..sorry honi)..LOL..........they are BIGGER than any big boys you all think of......numbers...30,000 snakes a year......how many did one BIG breeder you mention get this year...?...5 clutches.........(what I heard..maybe more by now)....

anyways....

yes you can make a living..yes it is harder than going to a good job .....yes it takes years,,,,,,,,,.

have fun........

growing and growing eh Chad.....yep........you'll make it.....bigtime.......

..........

,.,
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150,000.00 on one free snake. Must be nice, maybe someday we will get that lucky...LOL.

Yeah Jeff, people forget about the real "Big Breeders", or just don't know any better...LOL. See you tomorrow (if your gonna be around).
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Chad Bachman

I suppose it is fairly obvious that with enough capitol to invest and enough hard work, almost anything can make you money. Like right now, I am paying my internet service provider, thanks to Al Gore inventing the internet. Unfortunately, the average person, doesn't have a lot of free money, or a lot of free time, or a lot of free space, or a lot of free mice....

I think it is easy to get drawn in by the hopes of making a lot of money, but only the people who started with a lot of money really ever make a lot in return. By the time the masses pick up on the idea it is already history and the big boys end up with all of the big bucks to invest in the next big craze. I bought my snakes because I like BALLS....um...ball pythons...and if I make my money back, I'd be happy.

If you've read this much, here's a new question that someone could help me with. How do you administer panacur to an adult snake? Now, I have a degree in Biochemistry and I am 1 year away from my Ph.D. in Chemistry, so I am sure I can figure out how dilute to the 25-40 mg/Kg dosage, but how to administer it? Two thoughts go through my head...inject it into a mouse before feeding time or use a ball point needle to squirt it into the snakes throat. Has someone ever administered panacur themselves before?

Thanks

Panacur: You can inject it into the prey item, but with Ball's I always used a ball point doseing needle & straight down the hatch.

To figure out dosages for snakes:

(1) Weight the animal in grams.

(2) Divide the weight of the animal in grams by 1000.

(3) Mutiply that by whatever dosage you are giving...(25,40,100mg/kg..ect).

(4) Divide that by 25, and that will be the amount in cc's that you should be giving.

To give a simple example....A 1000 gram Ball that is getting a 25 mg/kg dosage of Panacur would go like this........

1000 grams divided by 1000 is 1....1 times 25 is 25...25 divided by 25 is (1)......so the snake would get 1 cc of Panacur per dosing at 25mg/kg.
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Chad Bachman

but only the people who started with a lot of money really ever make a lot in return.

I started with $700 back in 1991 and I bought a pair of Rainbow Boas and a trio of Leopard Geckos. I bred Leos like crazy for 2 years, sinking every penny back into more snakes, getting my first 2.2 normal Ball Pythons in 1993. They bred, then the Rainbows bred and then after keeping back babies and selling offspring every year, I now have Womas, Green Trees, Dumeril's, Hog Islands, Albino Boas, Ball morphs, Jungle Carpets, Jag Carpets, a milksnake colony, dwarf monitors, Rainbow Boas, etc etc etc. To say you need to start with a bunch of money to make any money is a crock. You need to work hard and be GOOD at what you do. The people that say "oh its too late and you need a ton of money to do anything and its a craze, bla bla bla", will ALWAYS be the people on the outside looking in. You want something? Go get it. Why takl/whine about it. No one's going to give you anything.

And the Ball market is here to stay. Even if the $10,000 morphs drop to $500, you'll still make a TON of money. Heck, I cleared $20,000 JUST in Pastels in 2004, and they aren't exactly a super expensive morph. Oh yeah, and I bought that Pastel by selling 8 Rainbow Boas. Nothing out of my own pocket since 1991.

hey, I agree that you don't have to have a ton of money to make money, but in order to make a ton of money, you need money to invest in the first place. Now, you can get that money by working your way up as you did, just as easily as you can from working the same hours at wal-mart. but, it is a lot more fun working with snakes...I know, I've done both. However, i do worry about the person who spends 20k on a mojave hatchling, when in the long run they will not be worth any more than a pastel. those prices do qualify as a bit crazy, but thats just a matter of samantics.

I don't think i am whining, just simply stating my opinion. Why talk about it you ask? Well, I have a lot of free time waiting for my two pastels to grow large enough to breed...waiting....waiting...still waiting

In the future I don't think I'll be sitting here looking from the outside as you suggest, since i'm sitting here holding my female pastel as I write. I can say that i worry sometimes that i might not ever see that money again, but then again, what other hobbies even hope to return your money. not too many...

This is my first year attempt at breeding,and hopefully incubating.Nothing spectacular,two brothers 50%/het Caramel to(so far)0.1 66%/het albino and the female pictured.With a nice group of females that will be ready next year.(lol)

I am part of the ever growing consumer base that derives from other herp type hobbyist.I myself have kept several gecko species and a plethora of tree frogs over the years.This is also
where i get my faith in the market,there are quite a few of us out here.

...but not everyone should/can keep a snake,let alone a colony of Ball Pythons.

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Charles Glaspie

Well, I have a lot of free time waiting for my two pastels to grow large enough to breed

If you want to see your money back, simply get some sub-adult or adult female normals, breed them, and make a few dozen Pastels. Even if you wholesale them out, you should easily be able to clear $10,000, AND you'll still own the principle investment (the original Pastels and females). No other investment in the world, save for drugs or money-laundering will generate that kind of return.

Well I have one huge female and I am thinking of picking up another, but that's all I have room for. All my friends and family think I'm crazy already. Anyway, that's the plan, we'll see how long I can wait for these two to grow...must resist power feeding...must resist power feeding

Today you can buy a $2500 Pastel adult male and 10 adult female @$500 each totaling $7500. In your scenario you will produce 2 Pastels each clutch and you should produce 4-5 clutches. That's 8-10 Pastel. Even if Pastel were to drop to $1500 a pair you would make $6000-$7500. That is pure profit. Why, because you still have the adult Pastel male and the 10 female and you should get your $7500 back if you sell them.

Simple invest more into the right snake. In this case more normal adult females.

Don't listen to those idiots that say there will be a ton of any ball python morph out there. What was $5 import CH babies are now about $50 wholesale 9 months later. Why, because 25,000-60,000 got bought out. Simply supply and demand. They sell for $39 to $150 depending on store and time of year. No morph will, nor should get to $150 each wholesale. If Petco or any pet shop were buying them for $150 then they would be selling for $400 .

All the ball python breeders in the world could not produce 25000 ball pythons in a single year.
It cost about $50 to produce each CB ball python. That's 4 per clutch from each female and her going every 2 year. $100 per year in feeding @ $2 per small rat per week for 50 weeks. I know they don't eat every week and I know they don't all eat small rats. But that's the average. $1 mouse to $4 large rat.
Don't listen to other idiots that say that their females go every year either and that there average clutch size is 6. They don't have a great # of females to see this 50% average. And eggs go bad, some are slugs and so 4 is a good average

GOD Bless
Andre
ASFReptiles

The market is here to stay. The people that said it would crash 7 years ago, are STILL saying the same thing now. LOL! And they'll STILL be saying it in 7 years from now. All the meanwhile, everyone else has had fun, made money, and got on with it.

Get it done if that's what you want. Its there for the taking!

like you have said. the bottom line is there is money to be made no matter what you want to do but you have to love what you are doing. the more you put into balls the more you will get back in the long run. it is a pretty good investment - even forbes thinks so. you can take your time or pour 50k into it all at once. it will take time to get your name out there but if you stick with it and want to make $$$ with balls i think the future is endless. there are new morphs every year and the market keeps growing.

It all depends on the initial investment & willingness to stick with a project (because you like doing it).
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Chad Bachman

That's it...Sticking with it...Lot of people don't do that with anything it is that they do...If you stick with anything money will eventually be made at it...Easy come, easy go.
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www.bustyballpythons.com

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sig file edited for tos violation. [phw 8/12/04]

You got it! I couldn't see living without some kind of snakes to care for on a daily basis. It's something I have to do, I always loved it & always will. This is not a get-rich-quick game, and unless you enjoy working with alot of snakes, you wont last.

Good luck everybody!! Looking forward to some more cool morphs for "05".
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Chad Bachman

I got into the game about a year ago and realized this was a passion very quick. I as well purchased a couple of pastels and hope to supply my addiction at first and maybe turn a small profit in the long run but who knows. I love these animals and think BP are the next best thing to sliced bread. My Girlfriend thinks I love them more than her (she may be right).

Understanding the business side of this is simple and complex at the same time. Predicting the market is impossible but knowing the basics of supply and demand is very simple.

Agree with the fact that people like me and the average joe are a very important part of the equation so giving negative feedback, like a couple of posts up, to someone on ks is probably not the best thing for anyones business. Who knows how many possible customers you could loose with a rampid post like the one I read a few up. Maybe the smalltime breeders are wondering what to expect there small investment will be bringing in for whatever reason. Whether it is for rent or to see what they could price their new babies at?

Just doesn't seem very proffesional to me. Supprised to hear that type of post from a well known breeder and part of this community? A little.

I hate to see aggresive posts on here and think it horrible for the business/hobby. Just my 2 sense which doesn't mean a lot, atleast thats what I got out of this thread.

** I didn't read all of the posts so if this is uncalled for please accept my appology

-Bill
-Bill

"Supprised to hear that type of post from a well known breeder and part of this community? "

What well known breeder made an aggressive post?
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-Dennis

That wasn't the point of the post in the first place. I was just trying to get a feel for what other people felt on this topic and so I appreciate people being honest and speaking their minds. No reason to hold back here, if your not honest now, I can't expect you to be when I want to purchase a snake or any one else out there.

Perhaps some people could use a little attitude adjustment (myself included), but all in all, this has been one of the best threads I have seen on here.... So thanks for everyones 2 cents

I think I got what I wanted and then some

but what matters is some of us are being honest with our posts, wether it's what people want to hear or not.
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Chad Bachman