Reptile & Amphibian Forums

since this falls under husbandry I thought I would put this at the begining of this forum.
Hopefully it will provide a little information right off the bat, so to speak.

COHABITATION
I thought I would post MY OPINION

I feel it is best to keep snakes separate.
I know a lot of people keep multiple snakes together without problems and it can obviously be done without dangers to the snakes. I just feel that for new people in the hobby the possible drawbacks need to be expressed.
When a person gets the experience and knowledge of their individual snakes and wants to try cohabitation that is up to them. They just need to be carefull and able to read the subtle signs of their snakes.
There can be definite drawbacks.
If one snake becomes sick there is a very good likelihood the other/others will get sick as well.
It may also take a while (usually too long) to determine which one is the sick one.
If one regurgitates its food you won't know which one unless you happen to get lucky and see it.
If one has a problem stool you won't know which one. Once again one may have a problem but by the time you figure out which one the other/others could end up with the same problem.
Although this is only a slight possibility, it is still a possibility and has been know to happen, one snake could eat the other. The smell of a prey item could trigger one snake to eat the other.
Like I said, this doesn't happen often but it has happened and is a possibility.
Another possibility is unwanted pregnancy. A female might get pregnant and you may not have the knowledge, desire or ability to incubate the eggs properly and raise the babies. With babies comes the responsibility of caring for them until you can find them a home.
A lot of people rationalize by saying "I will just put two males or two females together". That can work but mistakes can easily be made, especially with hatchlings. You could easily end up with a male and female.
There is also a chance of a female breeding too young or too small and becoming eggbound. Although not common it is a possibility and can happen.
With multiple snakes in an enclosure you stand the chance of loosing all of them if you happen to leave a top secured improperly or there happens to be a place they can escape through. Instead of losing one you could loose two or more depending on how many you decide to place together.
One or both of the snakes could be stressed by the presence of the other. Stress can cause a drop in appetite and lead to other health problems as well.
People will put multiple snakes in an enclosure and ask why one isn't eating.
When they are told it is probably due to stress caused by the other snake, the response is almost always "they like each other, they are always under the same hide together". Well this probably just means that hide or area of the tank has the optimum conditions they are looking for.
Snakes do not LIKE each other or ENJOY each other’s company.
There is no capacity for snakes to "like" or "enjoy".

I have kept multiple snakes together without problems but have made a choice to keep them separate. There is no clear argument on why you SHOULD keep them together but there are clear arguments as to why you SHOULD NOT.
So, in my opinion, although people do it successfully I just don't think it is worth the risk.
If you decide to keep multiple snakes together watch closely for any signs of appetite loss, regurgitation or any kind of personality change. These could all be signs of stress.
You would also want to feed them in separate containers and give them an hour or so to allow the smell of they prey item to dissipate, before putting them back together.
My 2 cents
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

My FAQs mostly agree with what you just said, but the more people can read, the more they can decide for themselves.

FAQ - Housing snakes together

Please DO NOT keep babies (or any newly obtained corns) together! Although some people have done it successfully, many more have had a lot of problems. If you have to keep some together, do it with the well established corns that have been in your collection for a long time. The babies are already under stress with new homes, travel, and just generally growing up. Please don't add to the stress anymore than you have to. Cannibalism is possible, although not likely. More likely problems include: going off feed, regurge, passing disease, early and difficult pregnancy,etc.

It is a much better idea to get a bunch of little plastic shoeboxes or "critter keeper" type terrariums and stack them on top of, or next to, each other. After you have had the snakes for AT LEAST 3 or 4 months and have gotten to know them individually, you could try combining some of the best feeding, best growing ones in groups of two per cage.(be sure to separate while feeding, and for 1/2 hour afterwards) There will always be differences in feeding habits, timidity, etc. Some animals are more prone to stress than others. You won't know which ones at first, but after a few months you will know. Be ready to separate them at the first sign of one going off feed, regurging, behaving unusually, etc. They may look happy all curled up together, but that doesn't mean they aren't stressing out.

The reason I keep referring to babies is because that is what most people buy from a breeder. But the same would be true of newly acquired yearlings or adults - they would also be new and suffering from the stress of travel and adjusting to a new home. Any new animals should be quarantined and their habits observed for a 2 - 4 months anyway. I would not suggest that you put two (or more) together unless they have both been in your collection for at least a few months and are approximately the same size.

If you follow these instructions, you will often (but not always) be able to EVENTUALLY keep 2 or 3 together once they are well acclimated. Just depends if you get a shy, stressed out corn. The more you keep in one cage, the more likely complications will occur (as mentioned above, going off feed, regurge, passing disease, early pregnancy, etc.)

Please feel free to call if I can answer any other questions for you.

Second FAQ - Success in going against the "usual" advice

Although it is easier to be successful following the usual advice such as keeping them separately and feeding frozen/thawed rodents, there are many who are successful doing the exact opposite. To those who are very careful and doing everything right while going against the norms - you can't argue with success! Even though it is more difficult to keep track of things with two or more together (and often, but not always, more stressful for the corns and can result in early pregnancy and other problems), it doesn't mean it can't be done. There are added precautions to be taken as well as added risks. It is not usually worth the added effort or additional slight risk for most people, but that is something that each person has to decide for themselves. The main problem is that it is usually beginners with new babies who want to do it - just asking for more problems than they might already have. I can tell you that even though I consider myself pretty experienced in corns, if I start working with a totally new species, I will follow the generally accepted advice with that species while gaining experience. Only when I feel I have some success with that species will I start to tinker with the accepted "recipe for success" that has already been established. On the other hand, nothing new would ever be learned if some people didn't experiment, keep records, and report their success and failures.

On the subject of risk, we do risky things every day and have to judge the risk vs. the benefits. The most dangerous thing IMHO is probably shipping them, although if done properly it is not very risky. In carefully controlled circumstances, I feel that housing together and feeding live rodents can be a lot less risky than shipping and other risky things we do. But please do not construe this as an invitation for beginners to throw all of their newly acquired corns together in a bin with a bunch of live rats!

Some experienced keepers offering advice get into the "never" or "always" do or don't this or that. But I go more for "usually" something works better than another thing . But each circumstance is different. Keepers who have a little experience and actually think about the likely consequences of what they are doing (and how to deal with them) can often successfully do things that beginners or "non-thinkers" will do haphazardly and unsuccessfully. Listen to all good advice, and then make your own informed decision based on your own circumstances and judgment.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
EMAIL: kathy@CornUtopia.com

I am especially urgent in warning owners of HATCHLINGS not to allow their charges to cohabitate, for all of the reasons listed above.

However, and I don't think enough people understand this (though I know that both Jimmy and Kathy do!), while it is definitely rare for corns to be cannibalistic, I found it to by universally found in young animals when it is found at all. I have never seen, or even heard tell of an adult eating another adult. I am sure it has happened (especially within the parameters of a SFE [Stupid Feeding Error]), but I have never heard of such. I absolutely HAVE heard and even seen corns that try to eat one another as hatchlings, yet when they are a little older, they can cohabitate quite nicely with one another.

I still don't think it is ever in the best interest of the snakes to be living with multiple roomies, but I most strongly warn against the practice among young animals. I just wanted to make that point as clearly as possible for those who might later read this thread.

Cheers!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

>>I am especially urgent in warning owners of HATCHLINGS not to allow their charges to cohabitate, for all of the reasons listed above.
>>
>>However, and I don't think enough people understand this (though I know that both Jimmy and Kathy do!), while it is definitely rare for corns to be cannibalistic, I found it to by universally found in young animals when it is found at all. I have never seen, or even heard tell of an adult eating another adult. I am sure it has happened (especially within the parameters of a SFE [Stupid Feeding Error]), but I have never heard of such. I absolutely HAVE heard and even seen corns that try to eat one another as hatchlings, yet when they are a little older, they can cohabitate quite nicely with one another.
>>
>>I still don't think it is ever in the best interest of the snakes to be living with multiple roomies, but I most strongly warn against the practice among young animals. I just wanted to make that point as clearly as possible for those who might later read this thread.
>>
>>Cheers!
>>-----
>>Darin Chappell
>>Hillbilly Herps
>>PO Box 254
>>Rogersville, MO 65742

Jimmy

I have had at least 2 occasions in which babies that had never fed before did eat one of their siblings that had not been separated into their own cages yet. Both were bloodreds, but from different litters at different times. There was no food present at the time. Of course, that is out of thousands of babies. But it DOES happen.

Kathy (or anyone else for that matter...heheh),

Have you ever seen a corn eat another corn (and by that I mean a truly cannibalistic event, not simply one snake attacking another because of some residual mouse smell lingering about) that was NOT a problem feeder?

Admittedly, my arena of experience is no where near yours, Kathy, but of all the little cannibals that I have either seen and/or heard of, every one of them were confirmed problem feeders. Personally, that is why I don't think we see cannibalism in adult corns.

Those snakes most often die as hatchlings either from starvation, or from engorging themselves with a sibling, and thereby never make it to adulthood, and if they do, it is only because they have been successfully "switched" to mice as food item, and no longer feel the need to cannibalize.

What do you think about that???
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

n/p

>>I was almost afraid to post this.
I saw what happened when you posted over on the other forum.
Things went crazy.
It got way off topic in a hurry.
Hopefully people over here will just take it as an attempt to help.
I just try to combine my personal experiences with information gained on the forums and through books like yours and do what works best for me and my snakes.
Always more to learn.
Hardest part is to set egos aside and admit there is always more to learn.
Jimmy
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

Hi Kathy, I wanted to say good post. I have only kept corns for a couple of years. I only have three and have always kept them separated. But I have to admit I have thought of placing my two females together one day. They are about the same size. They were bought at the same time and were housed together at the pet dealer.
I have kept other snakes for many years and currently keep six including my three corns, so I am not new to the hobby. I have also advised others not to house snakes together. But I know of a few who successfully have house corns together for many years without a problem. I appreciate your honesty about sometimes going against the grain to learn new things.
Chuck