Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We've been trying to develop a nice group of this locality specific, Great Plains ratsnake, for several years now. Last year I picked up a new pair of hatchlings and we're raising them up. They aren't the best looking Brazos Island rats, but are looking pretty good. Here's the yearling male...

On the Kingsnake Forum we discussed them because of the locality issue. People want to know why we should keep localties? What's the big deal? How is this locality different from others that are nearby? Well, to each his own I guess. I just really like the locality and the snakes that come from it. If others don't see the difference, that's the way it goes, but eventually I hope folks will see how nice these snakes are. The B. I. ratsnakes come from a pretty remote location and really far south. Brazos Island State Park is right on the 26th parallel....

Actually, Brazos Island is a barrier island, but connected to the coast of s. TX, just east of Brownsville and south of Padre Island. There are probably similar snakes on the mainland close by. It's a very sandy and harsh habitat. Reminds me of habitat I like to do field work in along Lake Michigan...

Snakes here are specially adapted for this environment.

On the Corn Snake Forum we have discussed crosses bt. corn snakes and Great Plains ratsnakes. I don't think folks over there like snakes that aren't pure corn snakes very much. The fact is though, several different kinds of corn snake morphs originated from crossing corns and G. P. rats, such as the creamsicle, the cinnamons, and the root beers. I won't go into all that right now, but one morph I am interested in is the cinnamon, and I already have a female that came from a hypo corn X Brazos Island ratsnake cross...

Hopefully, my cinnamons will turn out nice. Hypomelanism is one of my favorite mutations and I love how it looks on most snakes, so I figured I might as well have some hypo guttatus, if I'm going to be working with those.

After much deliberation as to which Forum, or Sub-Forum, I should use to make this post, I finally decided on the good 'ol Ratsnake Forum, where I spend most of my free time. After all, these aren't kingsnakes, and they aren't corn snakes or corn snakes morphs according to most of the regulars on the Corn Forum, but you can't deny that they are ratsnakes. They even are American ratsnakes.

So, here we are looking at the Brazos Island ratsnakes and their environment. I think the whole guttatus complex is cool, especially the Southern Great Plains Ratsnakes, Pantherophis guttatus meahllmorum, and even better, the locality of Brazos Island. Here's a very special snake from that locality which I wasn't able to get hold of, but I hope to duplicate some day...

So, now, if you see me ranting and raving about these critters, you'll have some idea why. Hopefully I'll be able to explain all my reasons over time. Hope you like them....

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

>>That was an excellent post.
Very informative.
thanks for posting it
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

>>>>That was an excellent post.
>>Very informative.
>>thanks for posting it
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy (draybar)
>>
>> Draybars Snakes

Great post Terry.
Have you pondered the thought that Meahllmorum from Boca Chica should resemble Brazos Island ratsnakes? I have, but have not been able to prove my theory as of yet. I do, in fact know that mainland (Port Isabell area) meahllmorum have that Brazos Island look to them. They are recognizable by their "H" shaped blotches that are sometimes so extreme as to make a ground colored stripe all the way down the dorsal scales of the snake.
Plan on a trip down this way this Spring or Summer and look me up. I would love to make a trip down to Brazos Island, Freer, Hebbronville and everywhere in between to find some meahllmorum.
Later,
-John Lassiter-

Not a Brazos Island Rat, but a Nueces Co. Rat:

Thanks, John. Do you have a car? Maybe I'll fly down for a week, or so. I've been thinking about it. It's kinda far for me to drive.

I haven't heard of anyone finding any meahllmorum from Boca Chica. I would assume they are the same there. We could check that area too. The Port Isabell snakes sound cool. Do you have any pics from there? I think your Nueces should make great creams too. Also, I've decided I'm going to make a generic meahllmorum, besides the locality morph, and just go for color/pattern which reflects the nicest overall characteristics. There's nice snakes from all over s. TX. I don't know why it's taken hobbyists so long to discover these guys.

I get done with school around the second week of June. Let me know which week/weeks in June or July, before the 20th of July, that would be good for you. I assume all the summer months are road-cruisin' months. I want to explore and photograph habitat during the day too. Have you ever been to Brazos Island State Park. I don't know if they have any facilities there.

Well, more later.

TC

Terry,
I have never been to Brazos Island Park. I have road cruised the Port Isabel area, but it was nearly 7 or 8 years back. All summer nights are good for road cruising and evenings are great for trash and debris flipping. Drop me an email so we can make plans.

BTW, I have a total of 0.0.5 adult Nueces Co. meahllmorum in hibernation now. I did not probe any, but odds are I have at least one pair. Maybe I have 1.4, that would be nice. I will keep you in mind when I hatch some babies out.

Take Care,
-John Lassiter-

jlassiterjr54@grandecom.net

you could definitely make a nice article out of your project in Reptiles magazine. I subscribe to it and it's an alright mag but it definitely needs more ratsnake content. There was a nice article by Larry Keller a few months ago (I think it was radiata) but otherwise ratsnake info is rare.

Of course I should keep my ideas to myself and stop spouting off but anyway kudos on the post.

Best regards
John

Thanks, John. If Reptiles had more ratsnake articles I'd probably subscribe to it. But anyway, I don't have enough info, yet. I like lots of scenery/habitat pics, and in situ shots, etc. Maybe someday, but then again I might just save them all for my book, LOL. Nice comments...Terry.

I just got Hubbs's Mountain Kingsnake book and it's really something. What's wrong with the hobbyists getting out there. Look at Schulz's monograph. Good luck if you do go for it. I'll want to buy an autograph copy too!

Regards
John

Haha, thanks again, John. First, I need to retire. Then I'll start the book. It's people like you that make me anxious to get started. Later...TC.

I love it when you guys with broader information post a detailed post like that one. There are a lot of folks that have heard about Great Plains Rats, the meahlmorum ssp and the BI locality but few have actually seen a description of how they differ from their more common cousins. How about posting one? With the number of people keeping Corns, these guys are a natural expansion of their collections. Folks just need to know more about them.

>>I love it when you guys with broader information post a detailed post like that one. There are a lot of folks that have heard about Great Plains Rats, the meahlmorum ssp and the BI locality but few have actually seen a description of how they differ from their more common cousins. How about posting one? With the number of people keeping Corns, these guys are a natural expansion of their collections. Folks just need to know more about them.

Thanks, Mark.

That's a great question and as I mentioned in my post I hope to be able to explain all the details someday. First, I hope to make a trip down there and get some habitat shots and maybe some in situ pics of nice Brazos Island Ratsnakes. The habitat has a lot to do with it.

The color/pattern is important, as you can see from that last photo, but you kinda have to be a GP rat lover to really see the beauty. Most hobbyists, I've noticed, are mainly into the "looks" of the snake. I'm more into the "species" first, then the best location for that species or subspecies. This is because of the things I specialize in...ecology and behavior of the snakes, field work, and ease of care in captivity, etc.

Actually, the Brazos Island "look" can probably be found anywhere in the area of the coast east of Brownsville and south of Padre Island. A lot of herpers will argue that the look can be found in areas much further north and west. Pinpointing the location, however, centers on the characteristics you're looking for. The BI rat is coastal, not an inland variation. It is also as far south in the U. S. as you can go w/o crossing into Mexico, important because it is central in the overall range of meahllmorum. The range of meahllmorum continues into Mexico for quite a ways. It is the location the snake comes from that is most important to me, almost more than the snake itself.

Who's to say someone couldn't come up with a snake that looks like the BI rat, but comes from a very different location. Noone. I'm not saying there's physical characteristics that can absolutely i.d. a BI rat. But there are some characteristics that we're looking for in them and have seen.

The head shape is a little more elongate with a slightly pointed snout. In general, the heads of meahllmorum tend to look more triangular than guttatus. Also, there's a smaller number of blotches, probably part of the clinal variation in GP rats. The blotches tend to deteriorate into H-shaped patterns. The ground color is very light tan with darker blotches. The snakes, in general, tend to be smallish, compared to other GP rats. They have small numbers of large eggs. They are fairly stocky, no direct comparisons, yet. We haven't studied the scalation much, yet, either, but hope to find some variation there too.

One of the things most people don't pay a lot of attention to is the behavior of the snakes. The Brazos Island ratsnakes don't hibernate per se, or brumate very much. They are probably opportunistically active year 'round. They are mainly nocturnal. They're a bit more terrestrial/fossorial than guttatus, which tends to be a little more aboreal. They fit in great with our collection. I'll know more about how they act in time.

Did I tell you about the fact that they are more tolerant of dry conditions? This is a captive condition which favors keepers in the Western U. S. and other dry areas of the world.

How's that for a start. Much more in the future, I hope

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

Since I lost my Mexican Bairds Ratsnake, and I feel that it was definitely a humidity issue with him, I am concerned about obtaining snakes that come from dryer climates than the swamp land around Washington, DC. This would include the Trans pecos ratsnake, also. Would you say that this snake should not be kept in the more humid areas of the world? I currrently have a hypo emory and a creamsicle, which are both doing great, so am pretty sure that the regular emory is okay with our humidity.

Thanks for help on this one.

phflame

>>Since I lost my Mexican Bairds Ratsnake, and I feel that it was definitely a humidity issue with him, I am concerned about obtaining snakes that come from dryer climates than the swamp land around Washington, DC. This would include the Trans pecos ratsnake, also. Would you say that this snake should not be kept in the more humid areas of the world? I currrently have a hypo emory and a creamsicle, which are both doing great, so am pretty sure that the regular emory is okay with our humidity.
>>
>>Thanks for help on this one.
>>
>>phflame

Ok, I'll try. Not trying to be any world expert though.

Since your emoryi and creamsicle are doing, ok, I don't think you have any worries. All the members of the guttatus complex are very adaptable. I'm just saying the Great Plains ratsnakes are adapted to a drier climate than corn snakes, semi-arid, actually. All these snakes seem to have a pretty wide range of tolerances, however. My GP rats may be a little more tolerant of the dry conditions (20 to 35% humidity) in winter, than the corns. The corns might be a little more tolerant of high humidity (60 to 80%) in summer. All my GP rats did fine under those conditions, however.

I might worry a little more about snakes that come from deserty regions, such as the Trans-Pecos ratsnake and the Baird's ratsnakes. I'm not quite sure about how deserty the habitat is for the Mexican Baird's, but I would assume they would seek out the optimum micro-environment, with moister conditions. Thus they should be tolerant of some humidity, at least. I find it a little hard to believe you lost your Mexican Baird's to a humidity problem. I would think there must have been other complications, maybe, that added to it. I've kept TX Baird's before, in Michigan, that did well with no adjustments. There's some differences there I know.

Anyway, I wouldn't fear any humidity problems for the s. TX ratsnakes (meahllmorum). The only problem I've had, so far, has been their intolerance to cold temps. I definitely wouldn't cool down first year babies below 70*F, according to what I've seen, so far. A little overnight cooling (in winter), is ok, with a raise of temps back up into the high 70's (min. needed for digestion).

Good luck with your projects....TC.

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

Here's a decent head shot from my first BI rat, showing the head shape and slightly bulging eyes (nocturnal)....

Another characteristic I forgot is that BI rats are often plain, or nearly so, on the ventrum. This character varies, but is fairly constant (needs more work)....

GP rats from the northern part of their ranges tend to have more pattern ventrally, as do corn snakes....

The Brazos Island Rat is argueably just a Great Plains Ratsnake. It is the combination of all its characteristics that makes it unique. Folks who don't care about locality animals won't care about having a BI rat, as compared to having any meahllmorum. I'm hoping the locality nuts will love them though. I'm know I'm getting quite fond of them.

I know a few herpers that live in states where corns, or even GP rats, are listed. In order to keep this type of snake they would have to get one that is not protected/listed. They would have to have some kind of documentation probably too. Hopefully, the BI rat won't ever get listed in TX.

Baby BI rats next to a (hypo corn) x BI rat cross...

PS: I don't know anyone who has these for sale, so can't tell you where you might get them. They're just being developed as far as I know. I hope to have them in a couple years.

Later....TC
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

Those pics and the explanation do a great job of illustrating your points adn answering my questions. Great response, thanks! See you sometime this summer. With temps in the high 70's all week I'll be sneaking out for some field time.

Wish I was there. I'll be around for Spring Break. Later...Terry

I just want to share some personal info with you guys.

In '03 I collected 2 clutches of "Southern Plains Ratsnake" (this is what we call them)eggs in the exact same location at the exact same time. This was from one of my Nueces Co. spots. I thought them to be one huge clutch of 25 eggs, but later found out it to be two clutches of 12 and 13 (they hatched 3 weeks apart). The clutch that hatched first had offspring that fit the "criteria" for Meahllmorum (white/pink bellies, low band count, and light ground color). The other clutch that hatched 3 weeks later had a mixed litter. Some offspring had a Meahllmorum look to them and some had an Emoryi look to them. The same year I bred a pair of wild collected SPR and the offspring also had mixed offspring. I know that Nueces Co. IS in the intergration zone, but there are certain microhabitats that can be pure within the "zone" as well.
On the other hand, every Brazos Island (from South of Port Isabel) ratsnake I have seen in pictures or in person has definitely fits the Meahllmorum criteria.

What is also strange is when I collect in Calhoun or Aransas Co. these ratsnakes have a different look as well. I think there to be a Slowenskii influence there. Therefore, I have never really seen pure Emoryi or Slowenskii, but have seen pure Meahllmorum and intergrades with each.

Terry, I hope you can make a trip this way this summer. It would be fun and interesting to see what we can turn up.
-John Lassiter-

That's really good "range" info you just gave. I'd love to make the trip down, if I can find the time. I'll try to make it near the end of June. Maybe I can fly in to Port Lavaca.

Your location in Nueces Co. is important because you can check on intergrades. Your SPR's might be intergrades, but I think Nueces should have mostly meahllmorum. Maybe some intergrades are influencing the population from the north, but the intergradation zone with emoryi is about a county away.

Also, according to KJ's map, slowinskii is ranging as far south as Matagorda Bay. Calhoun Co, is on the other side as you know, and Aransas is just south of that along the coast. I believe slowinskii is using coastal habitat to move south and could be intergrading with meahllmorum in Calhoun and Aransas, maybe even influencing the snakes in Nueces. I would love to be able to prove there's an intergradation zone bt. meahllmorum and slowinskii. Of course, that would mean they are unlikely separate species, but rather subspecies in the guttatus complex.

Keep me posted when you find w/c snakes, and especially when they lay eggs. Twelve and thirteen are actually pretty large clutches for a Great Plains rat. That might be above ave. for your county, and could prove to be good data. I need to do some work along those lines, but don't expect my first clutch until 2006. Slowinskii and meahllmorum probably have very different average number of eggs in a clutch, although I don't have that data at hand. It might help to see if they are intergrading.

If I come down we'll have to cover the whole TX coast from Matagorda on down, along the Rio Grande, and up by Hebbronville and Freer. That sounds like a lot of work. Should take at least a week. Wow, I'm getting tired just thinking about it. Talk more about that later. Thanks again for the post.

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

There's been some real nice meahllmorms taken from Brazos Island in the past that's for sure. I really like the Nueces County locale ones I have on loan from Dave Powell via John Lassiter. The Brazos Island name is just to identify meahllmorums actually coming from Brazos. I've seen a couple Brazos rat snakes that weren't as nice as the Nueces County ones. Kind of like Okeetee corns. Not all true Okeetee corns are the nice colored ones we commonly think of. I've read and heard the meahllmorums on Brazos Island are quite variable. It has also been discussed some of it comes from the varability in incubation temps the eggs are exposed to in the Brazos Island habitat. I'm breeding one of the Nueces County meahllmorums on loan from Dave to a male whose parents are a female Hebbronville and a male Freer. The meahllmorums are variable and I hope to take the looks of these and see if it produces a nice phenotype I like. Of course some of the variability in meahllmorums comes from the integration to emoryi in the northern range of the meahllmorums. I think the integration zone is still somewhat ambiguous. Thanks for the post and sharing the pics. Hypomelanism is one of my favorite traits too. The first snake I ever saw that got me to really want a snake was a Hypomelanistic bullsnake.

Terry Parks

[The Brazos Island name is just to identify meahllmorums actually coming from Brazos. I've seen a couple Brazos rat snakes that weren't as nice as the Nueces County ones. Kind of like Okeetee corns. Not all true Okeetee corns are the nice colored ones we commonly think of. I've read and heard the meahllmorums on Brazos Island are quite variable. It has also been discussed some of it comes from the varability in incubation temps the eggs are exposed to in the Brazos Island habitat.]

Thanks, Terry.

Exactly right, the name Brazos Island Ratsnakes identifies snakes coming from Brazos Island. I imagine there are other places nearby that have the same phenotype.

They are a lot like Okeetees, too. I don't know exactly how much variation they have, but I've seen some that are very dark and some that are very light. The idea some of the variation comes from incubation temps is interesting. That should be a variable that could be replicated in captivity to find out how much it works.

[ I'm breeding one of the Nueces County meahllmorums on loan from Dave to a male whose parents are a female Hebbronville and a male Freer. The meahllmorums are variable and I hope to take the looks of these and see if it produces a nice phenotype I like. Of course some of the variability in meahllmorums comes from the integration to emoryi in the northern range of the meahllmorums. I think the integration zone is still somewhat ambiguous. Thanks for the post and sharing the pics.]

That's kinda what I was talking about when I said I'd probably work with a generic meahllmorum too. Nueces Co. has some very pretty meahllmorum, as does the Freer/Hebbronville area. I suspect that mixing different localities for the nicest phenotypes will produce an outstanding color/pattern morph. I believe meahllmorum has a range in s. TX that has pure meahllmorum. The intergradation zone is very large, but can be avoided, unless one is doing a generic Great Plains rat too. Also, meahllmorum from s. TX tend to have blotches that break up, and result in striping. The reverse-striped morph is very interesting too.

I've posted this one before that is tending towards striping...

Thanks for your input and hope all your babies turn out great. Don't forget to post pics when you get them and let me know in case I want to get a pair, haha.

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

Terry, antelope here...aka Todd would like to see a head shot of that snake in the post as most of the G.P.'s i've caught don't have the spearpoint on the head as connected as that one appears. john, don't forget me when y'all go! seeya, todd

Hi Todd -
I'll get a head shot of him and post it. It may take a day, but I'll get one up.

Terry Parks

Hi, Terry and Todd.

My female Brazos has a connected spearpoint to some extent. You can see her in the pic of the babies above. I think it occurs to some smaller percentage of the time. I think I've seen a few like that.

Terry, is your photo of the male you're going to breed? I have to go to work this morning and it's -25*F, yuckkkk!

Terry, didn't we talk about meeting in Texas last year some time. Let me know if you're thinking about that, ok?

TC
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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and albino Chinese stripe-tailed ratsnakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains rats and corn snakes

I was going to use him until I got the male from KJ. He's not scheduled for any breeding so far. I'll put up a pic or two of the male that I'm going to breed to the female on loan from Dave. Dave was female heavy last year and he had asked me if I had an extra male he could use. He was looking for a young male that was about the ages of his females. This one is a couple years older so I don't know how he sets at this point.

I had mentioned to you last year about wanting to go to Texas around June. Shannon Brown and Aaron Mattson out my way make a trip to Texas every year it seems. They go for 10 days. I think they went around June 6 last year. I was hoping to go last year, but didn't. I'm hoping to go this year. I need to check with Shannon and/or Aaron and see if and when they may go this year. Aaron Mattson went with Shannon in June last year and then turned around a made another trip later. My trip doesn't have to work around Shannon's, but I would like to go about the time Shannon does if possible.

Terry Parks

Terry, I don't finish my last day of work until June 10th, so the weekend of the 11th-12th would be the first possible time to get away. I'll keep you posted on our plans..

TC

PS: Look forward to your pics.

TC -
Aaron read my post this morning and emailed me that he and Shannon are planning the Texas trip from June 25 - July 10 give or take a day or two. Here's a pic of the Hebbronville/Freer male I believe.

Terry Parks

Todd,
You're definitely welcome to go. You're the one with all the luck.
-John Lassiter-

As far as I know, I am the only person to bring ratsnakes from Brazos island to the hobby. The habitat there is nothing as pictured in the above post.. it is a desolate barrier island, sand, sea-oats and annual flowering plants.. not a single tree of any type is to be found. The dunes build until a storm tears them down and it begins again.. Ratsnakes depend upon ground-nesting birds, lizards and even invertebrates.
.

.

.
... over the last couple of years I have gotten into heated discussions with some people over the validity of the B.I. ratsnakes as a distinct race.. I do see individuals from inland with some of the traits of these snaskes.. but overall, as a group they seem definitely somewhat unique (to me).
I hope this helps!
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Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

Gus, welcome to the forum, and thanks for the very informative post.

>>As far as I know, I am the only person to bring ratsnakes from Brazos island to the hobby. The habitat there is nothing as pictured in the above post.. it is a desolate barrier island, sand, sea-oats and annual flowering plants.. not a single tree of any type is to be found. The dunes build until a storm tears them down and it begins again.. Ratsnakes depend upon ground-nesting birds, lizards and even invertebrates.
>>.

As far as I know you are the only person to have introduced BI rats into the hobby. All the stock I know of have come from your original specimens, about five I think.

I posted the habitat pic because we have dunes along L. Michigan. I have never been to Brazos Island and was trying to show that it was different. I wasn't sure if it had any trees or not, so your post clarifies that. Habitat is so important in cases like this.

We have dunes too, in the Sleeping Bear Dunes National Park, Lake Michigan...

Our dunes have jack pine trees creeping in, however. They can survive in sand and hot conditions...

Water can collect in low spots and provide habitat and drinking water for various hardy herps. Does Brazos Island have low spots with water?

When a tree dies and falls over it provides some cover for snakes, turtles, frogs, and toads. Does Brazos Island have any wood or anything for cover? Notice also the plant growing in the picture...

This is the hoary poupon, a native wildflower that grows in the dunes ecosystem, but not in most other ecosystems around the state...

Gus, thanks for the interesting post and pics. It helps clarify what I was trying to say. Hope you stick around and post some more. BTW, if we come down to Cameron Co, we'd be glad to hook up with you, if you were interested. I'll stay in touch.

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes