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I hear alot about how this line looks like it isn't 100% eastern king, I don't know kings that well, but I assume the sub-species have a different number of scale rows,etc. that you could count up and determine what sub-species it is? Has anyone done any actual genetic testing or anything to find out if the line is full eastern, and not an intergrade? Just wondering....
Michael
Michael's Place

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scale counts are the same within the getula group, there identifing traits such as broad heads,tapering heads rostral size etc.within the ssp. but really no distinction in scale counts.
i beleive the amel easterns are intergrade getula, i also beleive the amal gene was introduced via calikingXl.g.g with the sibs being bred to the eastern side eventually weaning out the cali genes and refining the amel gene. others disagree
but i just cant buy the lone amel chain king w/c in tennesee(which btw lgg doesnt even range into)that started the amel easterns just dont float w/me,,,,,
thomas davis

1) the original report was that the animal came from a collector who LIVED in Tenn.
2) that collector had sold NERD black and white chain kings in the past, so it seems logical he was collecting in getula areas and if he caught an amel it could have easily have come from the same areas the black and whites came from. Remember, this was a commercial collector. Isn't it logical, or at least entirely possible, a commercial collector might range afield to where desired animals could be captured, or are in more abundance, etc.?
3) if they were froman initial niger or niger-getula intergrade isn't it logical that after several generations of breeding F1 hets to each other we'd see a meaningful number of throwbacks to some niger-like offspring? I've only seen maybe 75 babies, from four or five different het females, and i haven't seen a baby yet that looked more like a black king than like a chain king.
4) if they're the result of calif - getula crosses i'd ask the same question asked in #3 above.

None of this proves anything, but they seem fair questions with which to respond to your unsupported opinion. I offer these questions just to provoke you into providing support for your opinions--make me a believer! Heck, you can have the opinion they're actually the result of a cross of a roseate spoonbill and a wild-caught amel pigeon. I'd still ask, "ok, can you tell my why you think that? Can you offer any support for your opinon?"

The forum is at its best when it cultivates more than mere opinions. Or opinions that are offered as hypotheses and then subjected to challenge, subjected to arguments to support the opinons, citation of evidence to support a suspicion, at least, or the development of tests that might lead us from uncertainty to something more than that.

Seems like it's your burden to provide a better argument than the arguments for the animals being getula. Provide something to make a reader think "hey, that's a convincing argument, he's onto more than just a wild and unsubstantiated theory". Our only purpose here should be to get closer to the truth. Opinions, "seems-to-me's" aren't worth their space here unless they advance that quest.

imho.

peace
terry

>>scale counts are the same within the getula group, there identifing traits such as broad heads,tapering heads rostral size etc.within the ssp. but really no distinction in scale counts.
>>i beleive the amel easterns are intergrade getula, i also beleive the amal gene was introduced via calikingXl.g.g with the sibs being bred to the eastern side eventually weaning out the cali genes and refining the amel gene. others disagree
>>but i just cant buy the lone amel chain king w/c in tennesee(which btw lgg doesnt even range into)that started the amel easterns just dont float w/me,,,,,
>>thomas davis

Terry,

You breed amel eastern kings right? Where did your line come from?
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
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Broken down as such
1.3 albinos
1.3 hets
1.2 possible hets
in addition to my other kings.

I possess 0.2 F2's and they are as typical an eastern as you can find. The rest are F3's---- and they are also typical easterns. I acquired animals from Tom Chiang and from Terry's line (via 3rd party). The only thing that is at all different about these animals are some have slight aberrancies on the side and belly patterns. This line (like the southern Georgia easterns) throws the occasional black/clearbelly and the side patterns are identical to the SoGA black bellys where the ventral pattern is absent and is exhibited on the lower side as an almost striping effect. All of my snakes show a remarkable resemblance to the Southern Georgia animals produced by Kevin Enge and Will Still.

The basic question as to the origins of the amel gene in the different ssp. seems relatively easy to research. We know that L.g.c. albinos exist. In the middle of the 20th century there are reports of albino easterns being sold at some eastcoast pet stores. The albino trait is a very common animal mutation. Hell, just make a list of animal species that are known to produce albinos:
mice, rats, pigeons, budgies, cockateel, zebra, snapping turtles, crocodile, alligators, Nelson milksnakes, American robin, bullsnake, gophersnake, ring-neck snake, boas, pythons, ratsnakes, white-tailed deer, humans, muskrat, cats, dogs, raccoon, cobras, salamanders, too many fish to list, etc....Why wouldn't Lg.g. have an occasional albino. These animals are often much more visible than their normaly coloured relatives leading to early demise/capture.

So Thomas, can I prove every eastern albino is pure L.g.g? No, because you can't scientificaly prove a positive. Since I can't prove a positive (These are from L.g.g.), what evidence is there to disprove an L.g.g. albino? Scientificaly, through a null hypothesis, the onus is on you to disprove the trait is from L.g.g. That evidence is still lacking.

Bob Bull

To me, I feel alot of what you said is not arguable, as there are many other animals in the animal kingdom that have been reported to carry the amel gene at one point or another, so why not eastern kings? I have seen quite a few pics of amel eastern kings, hatchlings, juveniles and adults, and I am by no means an expert on telling if a eastern king looks like it's hybridized w/ a cali king. But in my opinion, the eastern king amels I have seen, look like pure easterns. They are some nice looking snakes, but I was wondering why people are selling them for such high prices, but it seems like no one can really prove they are 100% pure easterns. Anyone can make eastern kings intergrade with another albino king snake species, and attempt to shift them off as pure eastern kings...
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
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Michael,

You said "Anyone can make eastern kings intergrade with another albino king snake species, and attempt to shift them off as pure eastern kings..."

Sure, but they won't look like easterns. It would take a considerable number of generations to work out the cali- influence, and like Terry said NONE of the offspring look like calis, blacks, specs, or deserts. The only thing that comes close are Floridana and there is ZEEEERRROO inter band lightening on the hets or PHets.

My anecdotal evidence of the commonality of the albino trait throughout the animal kingdom does not prove a thing about L.g.g. but it shows the potential.

The reason the price is very high is due to supply and demand. Very few breeders are working with these because they are relatively new. If my luck holds the prices will start falling as soon as I start selling.

Bob Bull

Well you let me know when they are coming on the market if they are pretty cheap

So far, I know of Terry selling them, you breeding(maybe selling?) them, and I'm pretty sure Will Still's will be hitting the market within the next 2 years.
Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

The basic question as to the origins of the amel gene in the different ssp. seems relatively easy to research. We know that L.g.c. albinos exist. In the middle of the 20th century there are reports of albino easterns being sold at some eastcoast pet stores.

>> whats l.g.c ?

The albino trait is a very common animal mutation.

>>i disagree

Hell, just make a list of animal species that are known to produce albinos:
mice, rats, pigeons, budgies, cockateel, zebra, snapping turtles, crocodile, alligators, Nelson milksnakes, American robin, bullsnake, gophersnake, ring-neck snake, boas, pythons, ratsnakes, white-tailed deer, humans, muskrat, cats, dogs, raccoon, cobras, salamanders, too many fish to list, etc....Why wouldn't Lg.g. have an occasional albino. These animals are often much more visible than their normaly coloured relatives leading to early demise/capture.

>>im not saying its impossible bob

So Thomas, can I prove every eastern albino is pure L.g.g? No, because you can't scientificaly prove a positive. Since I can't prove a positive (These are from L.g.g.), what evidence is there to disprove an L.g.g. albino? Scientificaly, through a null hypothesis, the onus is on you to disprove the trait is from L.g.g. That evidence is still lacking.

>>not trying to prove/disprove a positive or negetive simply stating my opinion bob,and im sorry but i beleive the burden of proof lies with the party selling amel lgg as pure, when in fact if they were pure lgg(descending from w/c)being a relatively new morph tracing their origin wouldnt be as hazy as a comercial collector in tn. caught and sold the founding animal to a animal broker/breeder, but sure it COULD happen,,,,,,yeah right and i could hit the lotto
sorry but i beleive that the amel gene was introduced via another ssp.thru captive breeding and i beleive that was done for the all mighty dollar,as most things are.
until more evidence is presented i will continue beleiving that, also all of the amel lgg ive seen just look to me like obvious intergrade getula,but they are gettin better, as far as looks go, of course they would after several generations,,, i guess its just me but it sure seems odd how amel l.g.cali was prooven outright for years and when they became availible to the east coast breeders suddenly there were/are amels in every single ssp.of getula now,,,, hmmmm,,,, logic ,,,,,hmmmmm

also ftr i dont beleive crossing within a complex like getula is hybridizing i beleive it to be intergrading and thru line breeding can be a very coolway to pass desirable traits among a group like getula without tainting it with something like triangulum,pituophis,elaphe,etc genetics

anywhoo hope that made sense

thomas davis

>> whats l.g.c ?

lol, the California Kingsnake.

Michael's Place

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Michael's Place has updated better caresheets
Helmz777@aol.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

The albino trait is a very common animal mutation.

>>i disagree

And Damn well you should. Boy did I stick my foot in that one. It is not a commonly found mutation. It is a rare mutation found in most vertebrate species.

I'll respond to the rest tomorrow, I've got to finish feeding tonight.

Bob

>>The albino trait is a very common animal mutation.
>>
>>>>i disagree
>>
>>And Damn well you should. Boy did I stick my foot in that one. It is not a commonly found mutation. It is a rare mutation found in most vertebrate species.
>>
>>I'll respond to the rest tomorrow, I've got to finish feeding tonight.
>>
>>Bob
=================
Dr Bechtel in his book on reptile variants suggests 1 in 10,000 in wild populations. Of course, that's just an average, but...

If that's the case, then it's reasonable to expect pure wild caught amel stock to exist (on average) for any animal 10,000 of which have been captured. Certainly Hondurans, many of the native U.S. species that were of commercial/hobbyist interests in the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. Others would know better than i the collection rates for various animals over the past five decades, say, but i know the numbers are huge.

terry

This is pure hypothesis based on what I've seen in people in general and these animals in particular:

1. The commercial collector most likely obtained the original albino in S. GA. With the laws being what they are in GA a comercial collector is faced with an ethical choice; watch a potential high $$$$ payday crawl away or grab it and worry about the law later. I beleive the founding animal was illegaly collected and the whole TN thing is a red herring. Most people have a hard time swallowing the whole "cover story" because its most likely BS. The secret isn't that the original animal was a different ssp the secret is most likely the original animal was an illegal take.
2. I have obtained my stock from several different people and the animals all show S.GA pattern traits. The first animals I bought seemed different enough, from my MD male that I emailed Keith saying I had some doubts about them. That was prior to my researching pattern traits.

Respectfully,
Bob Bull

Bob

I agree and disagree with you. The likelyhood of a collector snaggin a illegal animal that maybe valuable is good. One thing to consider is that like here in Wisconsin I believe color mutations are open game. Im not sure if thats the case in GA but its worth checkin out. Also I dont think the Albino's nor the hets look very much like S Georgia animals. The low to no chains yes but they have a really high band count which is unusual in the southern forms until you get into Florida a bit. If we were to say the Albino originated in GA than I would think N.W Georgia near Atlanta or that neck of the woods. That is an intergrade zone and the animals have high band counts. Here are some pics from animals from that area. I dont know if the Albino Eastern is the real deal Ive had my doubts but Terry and I at one time researched pretty extensively and came up with more points on it being more legit than not.

The first pic is from Lafayette Co., GA I dont know who took the pic. The second is Cherokee Co., GA Bart Borchert took the pic.

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well thats interesting, i suppose it could have been an illegal take and thats why all the hushhush,that makes perfect sense :O,,, i am curious why did you get into amel lgg? also will you sell any offspring as "pure" lgg,just nonlocale?
and as breeders&sellers if an animals line is questionable do we sell it as what it looks like?is that the only criteria?looks?
the paranoiya comes from people thinking we will loose all natural representations of certain ssp., i by no means am a purist i beleive its fine to breed ssp.within a group like getula, my problem is crossing the genetic line if you will when elaphe,pituophis,getula are crossed w/each other, if my theory is correct then by my own admmittance amel lgg are pure getula just not pure lgg,IF and its a big IF, infact that the subspecies of getula are that differant genetically i for one dont feel they are,,,,,,,,thomas

I might be a little incoherent, I just spent the last 10hrs at a public workshop/dog&pony show for a bog turtle management plan that I'm writting. I hate these Agency run sterile meetings where nothing gets accomplished. Everything becomes a political turf battle..... UUGGHHH!

///i am curious why did you get into amel lgg?

I love the subtle yellow chain patterning on the light pink background. I want to breed two lines of albinos one that I'll select for pattern and one that I'll breed for color with the intention to back cross the two lines often to obtain my ideal. I am also breeding the wc MD male to a female MD I got from Keith.

///also will you sell any offspring as "pure" lgg,just nonlocale?

I'm going to sell them as non-locale albino easterns. I have a picture of one male albino in the non-locale category on Keith's site.

///and as breeders&sellers if an animals line is questionable do we sell it as what it looks like?is that the only criteria?looks?

No we tell the truth as we know it. I believe these are pure L.g.g., but I realize that I may be wrong because there is a reasonable doubt. I'm not a big time breeder, and I don't want to be so most potential buyers of my snake are members of this and one other forum that I follow. I will be as open as I am right now in a public forum to anyone I would sell an animal to; it is what I would expect them to do.

///the paranoiya comes from people thinking we will loose all natural representations of certain ssp.

If, as I intend to breed for an ideal in my mind, and each breeder were to breed for a certain look then, it may be possible in the captive bred "pool". However, I am going to select offspring from my MD pair by random number chart and sell the rest. I can't come up with any othewr way to randomize all factors in a controlled environment.

/// i by no means am a purist i beleive its fine to breed ssp.within a group like getula, my problem is crossing the genetic line if you will when elaphe,pituophis,getula are crossed w/each other, if my theory is correct then by my own admmittance amel lgg are pure getula just not pure lgg,IF and its a big IF, infact that the subspecies of getula are that differant genetically i for one dont feel they are

I am not a fan of cross genus or species hybrids. Fooling around within a species only gets to be a problem for pure locality buffs who obviously aren't that interested in the albino easters because there is a doubt. I think the only way to know for sure would be to do DNA testing and that would most likely be expensive and possibly inconclusive due to #'s of elapsed generation between the originator and now.

I'm off to bed I'll catch up tomorrow,
Bob Bull

>>simply stating my opinion bob,and im sorry but i beleive the burden of proof lies with the party selling amel lgg as pure

>>i guess its just me but it sure seems odd how amel l.g.cali was prooven outright for years

>>thomas davis
========================
Hi Thomas, how you doin'?

Can I turn the tables for a minute? You say:
1) the burden of proof lies with the party selling amel lgg as pure
AND
2) amel lg cali was proven outright for years

Then substantiate for us that amel l.g.calis are pure.

You're making a lot of statements that you KNOW that factual background, so share it with us. I just want the same substantiation you're asking for re: amel l.g.g.

(and i realize i'm asking this question in ignorance so may be giving you the perfect chance to land a hard left to the jaw of my arguments, but that's in pursuit of the truth, so that's ok)

Remember one thing: You make fun of the story on the background of the amel lgg but you sorta distort that story. The accurate version of the story is:
Kevin McCurley at NERD, a long time snake breeder, had in the past bought wild-type chain kings from a collector who lived in Eastern Tennessee. The collector offered Kevin an "amel chain king," kevin bought it, compared it to the wild-types he'd gotten in the past, and they seemed to match. Subsequently babies have all looked like lgg, NOT in any way like lgcali.

I got mine from Tom Chiang, who i recall bought F1s from Kevin. The F1s and THEIR offspring have always looked like lgg, NOT lg cali. NO throwbacks.

So I think it's fair to ask for a more convincing "back-story" for pure amel l.g. cali than the l.g.g. story just summarized.

peace
terry
ps: i stopped breeding the amels a couple years ago for two reasons:

1) I had to eliminate one or more projects from my collection, because i have barely enough room and time for the pure honduran and pyro morphs i work with.
and
2) there were several people making unsubstatianted claims about the purity of the amel "chain kings". One of them reviewed the information presented and reviewed photos and changed his mind, concluding they were genuine. A couple others did not--you can't force people to stop expressing unsubstantiated opinions--some even candidly say, "i don't need to substantiate it, YOU have to substantiate YOUR position." It wasn't an open discussion in search of truth, and it got to be more trouble than it was worth, So i decided to let them go. (I did keep a pair--a het and an amel, just because I've loved chain kings for more than 40 years and couldn't bear to not have any here to appreciate).

Look, i do NOT know 100% that the "amel chain kings" are pure. Someday maybe with DNA testing we'll find out for sure. I BELIEVE they are, based on the info i have and the fact that i haven't seen any argument to the contrary that holds up to rigorous examination. L.g.g. seems the MOST LIKELY explanation and so far the breeding results are consistent with that explanation. I think it's fine for people to challenge that, i just (continue to) wish that they'd be willing to present facts to support their arguments too. FACTS, consistent with the situation.

Anyway, I digress. I look forward to your substantiation of your statement that amel l.g.cali are "proven outright" to be of pure origins. That'll be nice information to add to the wealth of data available here on the forums. thanks.

td

>>The first albino kingsnake in herpetoculture! The first individual was wild collected and the striped form. Now many generations of both striped and banded albinos are being produced. Many more wild caught animals have been included into captive bloodlines.

http://www.applegatereptiles.com/species/albcalking.htm are you really questioning the authinticity of amel calikings being the first amel getula to be produced consistently in captivity?,,the story on the founding amel lgg just doesnt float w/me if some by it rite-on,,,,,,,,,peace,,,,,thomas

>>http://www.applegatereptiles.com/species/albcalking.htm are you really questioning the authinticity of amel calikings being the first amel getula to be produced consistently in captivity?,,the story on the founding amel lgg just doesnt float w/me if some by it rite-on,,,,,,,,,peace,,,,,thomas

Two observations:
1) you didn't really provide factual proof of the wild caught amel L.g.cali, you just repeated a statement by bob that doesn't reference place, time, etc. I know bob well and like him a lot and if he says that i believe it, but i think your answer accomplished my goal, which was just to suggest that it's not so much an issue of fact and not-fact, but rather your selective evaluation of the credibility of different people. And that's cool.
2) I think in your case it's really a matter of faith--you have faith that bob's very general account is true and historic and academically sound, and you lack faith that the L.g.g. amel story is any of those things. And that's cool.

I was trying to address how we approach such issues, the process that gets us from opinions to hypothesis, fact (or whatever can come close enough to fact, in terms of likelihood, to pass for fact!)

Also BTW, did you notice bob says:
"The first albino kingsnake in herpetoculture!   The first individual was wild collected and the striped form.  Now many generations of both striped and banded albinos are being produced.  Many more wild caught animals have been included into captive bloodlines."

Note that bob--a source you have confidence in--says "many" wild caught amel L.g.calis have been found. Taking into account the relative numbers of L.g.cali collected from the wild compared to splendida or g.getula or floridana, if "many" cali have been found, isn't it entirely possible at least one of the other types has been found too? For all i know there are documented cases of people "transferring" the amel trait by crossing cali to other getula. That doesn't preclude wild caught amels from having been collected too, does it?

peace
terry

Two observations:
1) you didn't really provide factual proof of the wild caught amel L.g.cali, you just repeated a statement by bob that doesn't reference place, time, etc. I know bob well and like him a lot and if he says that i believe it, but i think your answer accomplished my goal, which was just to suggest that it's not so much an issue of fact and not-fact, but rather your selective evaluation of the credibility of different people. And that's cool.

>>selective evaluation of credibilty of different people???terry its not that at all i am blaming no one person or people at all or anyones credibility? and i never considered it an issue of fact and notfact i simply stated my opinion of how amel lgg came about?

2) I think in your case it's really a matter of faith--you have faith that bob's very general account is true and historic and academically sound, and you lack faith that the L.g.g. amel story is any of those things. And that's cool.

>>faith?my opinion has nothing to do w/bob applegate i simply put that there for your proof,,i fully acknowledge that calikings were the first albino getula to be found and bred and bred consistantly achieving a very strong amel line in captivity.

I was trying to address how we approach such issues, the process that gets us from opinions to hypothesis, fact (or whatever can come close enough to fact, in terms of likelihood, to pass for fact!)

Also BTW, did you notice bob says:
"The first albino kingsnake in herpetoculture! The first individual was wild collected and the striped form. Now many generations of both striped and banded albinos are being produced. Many more wild caught animals have been included into captive bloodlines."

Note that bob--a source you have confidence in--says "many" wild caught amel L.g.calis have been found. Taking into account the relative numbers of L.g.cali collected from the wild compared to splendida or g.getula or floridana, if "many" cali have been found, isn't it entirely possible at least one of the other types has been found too?
>>of course its very possible
For all i know there are documented cases of people "transferring" the amel trait by crossing cali to other getula. That doesn't preclude wild caught amels from having been collected too, does it?

>>no it doesnt i by no means am saying that wild amels of ANY ssp. cant/wont be discovered terry,, its just very obvious to me from the amel lgg that i have seen that they are crossed w/cali and i firmly beleive that.
now regardless of what bobapplegate,you or anyone says i also beleive that when the amel trait is found in a ssp like lgg in the wild that it would be documented,recorded or at least acknowledged in the herp community,but the best story the "community" can come up with is the tenn.COMMERCIAL(that gets me,lol)collector that found the animal in ga.(illegally roflmao)and sold it to nerd. who then didnt record anything? hmmmm?? seems very odd a breeder producing a new morph didnt keep diligent records on all breedings,babies,etc?? hmmm?
now lets see chainkings sell for 50 bux, but amels chains could fetch 500each, i think that alone says why it was done(if it was) and i still beleive as a consumer that if your selling animal morphs that you provide the lineage on said animals,back to the founding animal(esp.when/if it quadruples that particular ssp. mrkt.value!) now if the consumer buys the tenn.story and is happy then rite-on,,also imho the amel lgg will get better and better the more they are refined in captive breeding situations(as with ANY animal)and im sure they are pure getula i just have my doubts about how that amel gene was established in the captive lgg,,,im still floored that you want documentation on the amel calikings being the first amel getula found and bred consistently in captivity, but i will find it as im sure its documented/accepted in the herp community with at least a better story than the tenn. onebut we'll see,,,,,,,,,,thomas

) the original report was that the animal came from a collector who LIVED in Tenn.
2) that collector had sold NERD black and white chain kings in the past, so it seems logical he was collecting in getula areas and if he caught an amel it could have easily have come from the same areas the black and whites came from. Remember, this was a commercial collector. Isn't it logical, or at least entirely possible, a commercial collector might range afield to where desired animals could be captured, or are in more abundance, etc.?
3) if they were froman initial niger or niger-getula intergrade isn't it logical that after several generations of breeding F1 hets to each other we'd see a meaningful number of throwbacks to some niger-like offspring? I've only seen maybe 75 babies, from four or five different het females, and i haven't seen a baby yet that looked more like a black king than like a chain king.
4) if they're the result of calif - getula crosses i'd ask the same question asked in #3 above.

None of this proves anything, but they seem fair questions with which to respond to your unsupported opinion. I offer these questions just to provoke you into providing support for your opinions--make me a believer! Heck, you can have the opinion they're actually the result of a cross of a roseate spoonbill and a wild-caught amel pigeon. I'd still ask, "ok, can you tell my why you think that? Can you offer any support for your opinon?"

>>only support i can offer is its my opinion it was done for $$$ as most things are.i beleive the support lies in the folks selling albinos as pure ssp. when nobody can say for sure if they are or arent

The forum is at its best when it cultivates more than mere opinions. Or opinions that are offered as hypotheses and then subjected to challenge, subjected to arguments to support the opinons, citation of evidence to support a suspicion, at least, or the development of tests that might lead us from uncertainty to something more than that.

>>sorry i think forums are for voicing your opinions and hypotheses

Seems like it's your burden to provide a better argument than the arguments for the animals being getula. Provide something to make a reader think "hey, that's a convincing argument, he's onto more than just a wild and unsubstantiated theory". Our only purpose here should be to get closer to the truth. Opinions, "seems-to-me's" aren't worth their space here unless they advance that quest.

>>sorry ya feel that way

imho.

peace
terry

Thomas,I personally don't know if Cal. kings were bred to Eastern Chain Kings to produce amel.Chain Kings.I would believe in a wild caught natural occuring chain king before I would believe in a natural occurring cornXking or ratXgopher as you believe.

My last post was meant to read wild caught amel natural occurring chain king.

Amazing how people get up in arms about these amel getulas.

A couple of "facts"

1. An amelanistic getula was captured crossing a road in gwinnett county GA many years ago. This animal was sold to a pet shop and subsequently was confisgated by GA DNR It was then placed at Zoo Atlanta where it lived for a few years until its death during brumation one year.

2. I personally saw this animal, it looked nothing like what was being offered as amel getula when they first hit the scene.

That's it for the facts....now for the opinions, I think the original animal from NERD was an naturally occuring intergrade between nigra and getula. Most of the hets I saw back then were very intergrade looking. Now, whats out there now (being offered as amel getula) look much more like the WC individual I saw. My thoughts? The gene has been bred into more "getula looking" animals over the years and has resulted in better looking more "pure" amel getula. Does any of this matter? I guess that's for each of us to answer. The "purity" of the amelanistic line of getula?.....oh will we ever know the truth LOL

Now if only the people out there with Leucistic Southern Pinesnakes knew the real deal about most of those animals and thier origins LOL.