Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok ok, so I get my uro and the first things I hear are something to the effect of

"Humidity is bad for these reptiles, they are strictly desert and consume water from their food"

Then I read "They need a humid area for their shedding"
I also see a few enclosures that have the hide in there for them(the ziplock container and flex tubing)

My idea, which Im sure Ive formulated from what others are doing, is to put the hide in there and keep it damp. Is this a good idea? Am I going to cause respitory problems for the uro? Is it really going to assist in him shedding?

All information very welcome. Thanks in advance.

My uros are as close to zero humidity as you can get and have no trouble shedding. I believe you should keep it very low.

My thought - and it has worked very well for my guys - is that they should have a choice of humidities as well as a choice of temperatures. I have one large sleeping chamber with lightly dampened soil/sand. Most of the cage is quite dry, but they have the option of hanging out in the higher humidity - and they do, quite a bit. There are at least two other dry hides in each cage, too, so they can choose either way.

The danger is in very high humidities that they cannot escape. "Very high" would be 70% or more in my opinion, though others may disagree. I kept mine at low humidity only (40% or less) for a long time with no ill effect - they ate their greens well, no water bowl. Now, they do shed more quickly, and since they like the humid hide, I maintain it for them.

Old picture of the Saharan tank:

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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
2.0.1 Uromastyx Dispar Maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.2 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser, Leeloo, and Sprocket)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)
And several miscellaneous community fish

When I bought my uro on sunday of this week(2 days ago) he was beginning his shed. He's still shedding. I pulled some off him today when I went home. Is this normal? Do they take a long time to shed?

My only familirarity with shedding lizards is my leopard gecko who basically turns all white and its gone within a couple hours. So my inexperience is causing my concern and worry.

No worries - it takes them a very long time to shed. Sometimes weeks or more. And they may only shed one body part at a time. Be sure when you pull off shed that you only remove bits already separated from them - don't actually pull anything away from the body, as it may damage the scales underneath. You may already know this, I'm just putting it out there just in case!
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
2.0.1 Uromastyx Dispar Maliensis (Tank, Turtle, and Spike)
1.2 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser, Leeloo, and Sprocket)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)
And several miscellaneous community fish

in the wild they spend most of their time in burrows deep below the surface that create a very humid hiding spot. The only way to accurately recreate this in captivity is to get them diggable soil deep enough that they can do just that....dig. They will dig their very own burrow just how they want it, where they want it, etc. etc. (essentially choosing the temps and humidities they want it to be in). You can use a humid hide (basically a box with a tube for an entrance, filled with moistened soil). They won't see this is a burrow though, they'll just see it as what it is, a box that offers to them higher humidity. In my opinion it's better than nothing though. Right now I keep a sort of humid hide with my uro by keeping her on a couple of inches of soil, and naturally the bottom of her retes stack is more humid. She is always trying to dig a burrow from under it though, which is why I'm going to try a full burrowing setup on my next enclosures. I'm pretty excited about it actually.

In captivity you can maintain a uro without any area of higher humidity, but you're basically taking away something that they see as a necessity. The reason it can be done is because in captivity their food has a lot of water in it, where in the wild it has very little, so in the wild they need to conserve their water more.

Ryan, do you have an AIM or MSN or something I could contact you through? Had a couple quick questions and such if you didnt mind.

Ryan, what is your source of information about the deep burrowing and humidity? I'm looking to broaden my knowlege of these animals and this is the first I've heard of this theory. Previously I had read that high humidity levels can cause skin problems especially around the tail. I would be interested in reading your source. Thank you in advance.

it started when robyn from pro exotics started doing their uro project (go to their site for more info). At first I was really really skeptical, but now I'm starting to realize that a full burrowing setup is for the best. I can't remember exactly which sites I found this on, but people have researched uros in their natural habitats and found that usually they build burrows up to about 6' deep into the ground (I think?) to escape the high heat and low humidity of the desert...both of which would cause dehydration and death very quickly otherwise. The only time they really come out of the burrow is to eat, bask (with the high surface temps they find, this doesn't take more than a couple of hours), mate, etc. Some species (can't remember which off the top of my head) will also get into rock crevaces to get higher humidity. I think all species do build burrows though.

So you have to take this into acount when you build a setup for them. Most people just use simply dry substrates and temperatures that are just hot enough, which isn't really bad for the uros, because they are fed veggies with such high water content (in the wild their food is much dryer). In my opinion it's better to try to give them the resources that they use in the wild. If you can't do a ton of dirt (in my current cage I can't), you can find ways to get around that. I also didn't have enough spare room for a rubbermaid box full of dirt, so I decided to just keep the bottom of her retes stack well watered, and the humdity under there stays pretty decent, though not as good as it could. What would be better is if I put the dirt in, then just sort of set a small piece of thin plywood over the dirt, and then dig a little under it so they get the idea. In the wild they will often burrow underneath large rocks and such, so it's not too far off.

But basically for my next enclosure I'm going to try to find a way to get around 9" of good soil so that she can dig a real burrow. I'm also going to heat it with a 45 or 50 watt halogen bulb to get the surface temps of the basking spot up around 140. I have it up to 145 right now, and she sometimes basks directly in the center, which shows that she does like to use that high heat sometimes. Most of the time though she just gets the right basking temp by moving off to the side a little until she finds exacly what she wants. She self regulates her temps depending on what she needs at the time. If she does swallow something that could cause an impaction (which is possible on soil because of the pebbles), she will bask in hotter heat so that her digestive system can work harder and pass the obstruction.

Most problems like impaction are usually a result of dehydration and insufficient basking temps.

That's just a little bit of the ideas I use with my reptiles. I like to go on the monitor forum a lot and see what they're doing for their enclosures, because you can sometimes get some cool ideas from them to use with other lizards.

If there's anything else you need me to clarify let me know. I just sort of mumbled through this.

I have read some of these comments and they tend to be antidotal in nature. I thought you might be basing you comments in established fact. I do agree that these creature use the burrow a large amount of the day, as much for protection against predators as anything, but since the regions in which the range are very low in humidity burrowing to six or even ten feet would have little effect on the humidity within them. The substrate that they live in is a hard pan rather than a soft sand or soil. It is more than likey that they take residence in abandoned holes and modify it to their needs.

showing that they actually do get a lot of humidity in the desert that far below ground. I mean, if you really think about it, they survive on vegetation, which needs water-rich soil to be able live. Also, studies of them in the wild show that if the soil isn't humid enough, they actually get inside their burrow and then block off the opening to the main chamber with dirt so that they can conserve their humidity better. Even though the deserts are dry and hot outside, once you start digging down just a little bit, it starts getting very moist. Isn't that supposed to be how you find water if you're in the desert anyways? Like if you dig down you will find water because there's so much of it in the soil. The hot sun can't evaporate all of the water in the soil, just most of the water from the first few feet I think. Otherwise nothing would be able to survive. Water is the nectur of life Even leopard geckos in the wild will get the higher humidity they need just by going into rock crevaces. Besides, if they didn't want such high humidity offered by the burrows, they wouldn't be digging them whenever given the chance in captivity (they're smart animals).

Which brings me to another thing. Yes, it's entirely possible that they sometimes inhabit burrows dug by another animal, but that wouldn't make much sense considering what has been observed in captivity (and in the wild). They dig their own burrows readily. Usually they will start the burrows under something solid. If there is a really big rock, they will often put the entrance at the base of the rock. Or they sometimes construct their burrows at the bases of bushes or trees...you know, stuff of that nature. Robyn at pro exotics has a really good dirt they found that hardens on top and then gets more humid as it goes down (to about 2' I think). He says that every time they build a burrow they build straight down to the bottom...indicating that if given the chance, they would go much deeper than 2' (which is supported by research of them in the wild). Another thing Robyn and a few others have just recently been figuring out is that if there are small rocks in the soil (like .5" to 2" or something like that...it's not scientific really), the uros will somehow put a ton of rocks right at the entrance of the burrow. Jobi (someone who is usually on the monitor forums, but sometimes here), put some rocks of that size in his burrowing uromastyx setup and sure enough they ended up right at the entrance. He decided to conduct an experiment and rub the rocks with a snake shed, and apparently the uromastyxs' behavior showed that they obviously knew that a snake (well...the skin of a snake) had been there. That shows that they may use the rocks as a way to keep track of who's been near their burrow (because the rocks will hold scent/taste will dirt or sand wouldn't be able to or would blow away in the wind).

Let me see if I can find some pics of the pro exotics setup and their uros.

Ryan, I'll ask again. Where was this study done or who did it? Did they publish a book or paper on it? I'm sure Robin's a fine person, but I'm looking for sound, documented information. If this is just your opinion or feeling then that's what it is, but if you have have a published paper or book on this humidity study, please share.

the only book I have with info about uromastyx in it right now is just a general lizard book ("lizards A to Z" or something like that...it's not bad for general husbandry info). In the uromastyx section they do state that uromastyx do best when given a burrowable soil (I think they said something about soil with clay in it...probably because it could more easily hold a burrow). Here, I'll get the book and quote some of it....

"Keeping: Uros need a desert terrarium, with a high-illumination level and UVB availability, along with a sandy/clay substrate deep enough for burrowing.

The spiny-tailed lizards are inveterate tunnelers, at times constructing home burrows of 10 feet or more in length. The burrows are often begun amidst rocks or near the foot mass of a low shrub. When the lizards are "at home", they often plug the burrow with loose earth to help prevent moisture loss inside the burrow."

Then it goes on to tell the temperature specifics and stuff like that. I actually like the book a lot. It's got good general information on pretty much all of the currently available species. Looking at it now, it's called "Lizard care from A to Z", by R.D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett. Books aren't always reliable though, so I had found a website that went in depth and actually had statistics on uros collected in the wild. I'll see if I can find that later tonight.

Thanks. I'll get a hold of it.

For example, there was somebody on the site (their name escapes me right now) that was told by his vet that he was feeding his uro the completely wrong diet and that it would kill it. The vet was basing this on a medical book written by Frye which stated that spiny-tailed lizards (uromastyx) are to be fed only a few greens and that most of their diet is to be bugs and PINKY MICE! Well, we all know that is completely WRONG!! But it's in a book so it must be true, right? Thank God that the owner didn't listen to the vet and continued to feed his uro the greens and veggies he had been prior to the visit.
Please don't discount some of the new husbandry techniques being used here. Current husbandry is mediocre at best, we're breaking new ground. If the theories tested work and create better husbandry practices for these animals, then we'll be the ones writing the book on proper uromastyx husbandry but someone has to try it out before it turns into a book. C'mon and help us pioneer a new life for these little guys!
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1.1 Mali Uromastyx (Ra and Isis)

You're exactly right and that's why I look for specifics such as book title, author, etc. There is a lot of information out there that is not based in fact. Since there are no definitive works on this subject, at this time, I am compiling as much info as possible from books, websites, care sheets, etc. It is important to question where this comes from as there is a lot here say, speculation and BS that is shared on these forums along with very good, sound information and advice. Even the good information that is available is often subject to someone's interpretation when they feed it to you second or third hand. I would like to see a book or paper by Dr. Dix or L. Pike, but until that time this is how I will approach information on this subject. Thanks for your patience.

I assure you that I have put a lot of thought and research into this before I even determined that it might be a good idea. I was extremely defensive of current husbandry when Robyn first introduced this new way of keeping them, but now it has finally gotten through to me.

Doug Dix and Lindsay Pike have some great animals. I still think that there is room for improvement with their husbandry methods too. I think that instead of having animals that are really good, they could end up having animals that are really great. Some reptiles are good at tolerating the kind of captive conditions most people throw at them (which often doesn't mimic their natural environment in any way besides temps). Uros can tolerate it, but they are one of those species that are known for sometimes being hard to keep healthy, and very hard to breed. From what I have heard, Pro exotics might have already had some breeding success with their big burrowing setups, and their uros are not much more than a year old. We'll have to wait and see if anything happened this year. If not I'm fairly confident it will next year.

Yes, it is mostly opinion that I have gained from fact. You should carefully sift through husbandry techniques before you employ them. As a reptile owner, you should have the ability to make decisions for yourself.

Here's an intersting article about morrocan uros in the wild. I don't think they're known for building huge burrows like some uros, but the article does mention how they dig the burrows, and the kind of humidity that is usually maintained inside the burrows. - http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/uromastyx.html

http://www.kingsnake.com/uromastyx/caresheets/Osnat.html

It can be hard to understand sometimes. This one doesn't really have much info about the burrowing behavior, but it does mention it, and I found it to be a very interesting article.