Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(Sistrurus Miliarus Barbouri)

Congrats.

Nice snake, Not an anery-but rather typical of what we find in S. Florida.
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

he was from paynes prarie if I remember right. we visited alot of places and only saw a few snakes, any good spots in FL I might be going back down in april. thanks
Wayne

That is indeed an Anerythristic. It is missing the orange pigment normally found on the vertebral stripe. Yes, there are known populations of them in the wild - doesn't make them any less Anery.

your statement of that pygmy being typical in s-FL, Frank.
I have seen hundreds of them from the Tampa Bay region to the Glades and only a few have been devoid of orange-red vertebral markings. I would DEFINITELY opt for anerythristic on the pictured specimen. Rgds/Dick

I have also seen them on Glades, Snipes, & Ted Thompsons tables as Anerys. I guess we're all wrong.?

I think the snake was in shed. just after the blue phase when they shed you know how they clear up, b/c you could see orangeish stripes on his head, you had to look hard and I didn't get a pic of it, it was like the second hot snake Iv'e seen in the wild. and I wasn't about to try and get to close.
wayne

I can only go off the hundreds of specimens (and litters from them) that I have seen in the wild, at Lion Country where I ran the reptile park and at the wholesalers and dealers I have dealt with for many years. I have often seen specimens lacking the cinnamon. The ones I have found in the glades tended to have the least color-and were generally richer in black pigment.

Dick, I really don't think it is anery, just the species normal variation. Just like the Mexican black king, some specimens have more-some less. The specimen pictured appears to my screen as having a hint of brown in the neck, But that could just be my computer.

jollif, since you want to make an issue of this, I have only been collecting, keeping, breeding and (occasionally) selling in South Florida since the mid 1970's. I can only draw an opinion off what I have seen. Your experience?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Nice of you to ask Frank – I know how you love to disagree w/ me. It almost seems personal – have we met? I can appreciate your yrs. of experience in field observation, etc. but just because there is a large population of Anery. Dusky Pygmies in the wild does not mean that it is not a mutation. There are many Anery. Specimens that do have brown pigment (i.e. Boas & Ball Pythons) but I do not see any on the Rattler pictured. If it was not an Anery. specimen, it would have the ORANGE dorsal stripe which it clearly does not. I did not say this is a “one of a kind” animal but I have seen specimens like this recently SELL for between $150 - $500/ea. What is your experience w/ animals that have pattern or colour mutations? I am not a braggart but you asked - so here is my list of animals I have actually owned or do own which is the “experience” I base my conclusion from. This list does not include Hets. or Dbl. Hets. or the list would be much longer. These are actual visible morphs I do own or did own @ one time - most of which I have produced. This does not include many miscellaneous colubrid mutations (kings, garters, corns, etc.) I have had in the past. I would like to see a list from you to see your experience w/ mutations.

*****Ball Pythons
Axanthic (Jolliff & VPI) – produced the first Jolliff lineage & second overall
Albino
Snow – produced the first ever – a seven yr. project
Pastel
Silver Pastel – produced the first ever
Blonde Pastel
Clown
Piebald
Ghost (Hypomelanistic)
Cinnamon Pastel

*****Boas Constrictors
Albino
Brindle
Anerythristic
Hypomelanistic
Hypermelanistic

*****Honduran Milksnakes
Albino
Hypomelanistic
Anerythristic
Ghost
Aberrants (two different strains)
Motley

*****Black Ratsnakes
Albinos – Reds, Oranges, Sunglow (Albino Rusty), Lavendars, Purples, & Whites
Rusty
Leucistic
Albino Leucistic
Motley – a first
Licorice Stick ( aka White-sideds)
Albino Licorice Stick
Lemon Cowsucker (Xanthics) – very rare

*****Western Diamondback Rattlesnakes
Albino (tryosinase negative)
Caramel Albino (tryosinase positive)
Ivory
Hypomelanistic
Hypermelanistic
Albino Hypermelanistic – a first ever
Patternless

*****Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnakes
Albino
Aberrant (Het. Patternless?)
Albino aberrant (Het. Patternless?)
Striped

*****Monocled Cobras
Albino
Axanthic
True Leucistic

*****Southern Copperheads
Hypomelanistic
Hypermelanistic

I am also working on a color & pattern mutation book that features the following specimens from some of the finest captive breeding programs in the country. My pix have also been published in a few different mutation books (European & US):

Ball Pythons
Lavendar Albino
Caramel Albino
Genetic Stripe
Pinstripe
Spider
Ghost Spider
Mojave
Ivory
Lesser Platinum
Daddy Platty
Leucistic
Paradox Albino

Blood & Short-tailed Pythons
Albino
Stripe
Tri-striped
Ivories (two different localities)

Boa constrictors
Snow
Stripe
Albino Stripe
Arabesque
Albino Arabesque

Rainbow Boas
Leucistic
Hypomelanistic
Albinos (two different localities)
White-sideds

Tyrosinase positive Albino Amazon Tree

Axanthic Eastern Diamondback

Tyrosinase positive Albino Timber Rattlesnakes

Copperheads
Tyrosinase positive Albino Southern
Spotted Northern (poss. Anery.)

if you would like to sell me some legally collected specimens that look like the animal pictured for the price of normal Duskys, I would be interested.....

I allready posted my credentials...That you have bred captive snakes for mutation does not really stand for much here, as we are dealing with a wild caught specimen. Now there IS a wild Anery population of P. guttata which a surprising number of professional breeders seemed totally unaware of when I brought this up on the Ratsnake Forum.

I have thirty plus years of field experience in the South Florida area upon which to base my claim. Since this is a "field issue" I think that more than balances your business experience. I can also add that I have been involved (besides the Zoo and busness experience) with several herp societies and have donated much of my time to identifying reptiles for busnesses and the local authorities...as well as animal rescue.

I am not an expert on the genetics of mutation, as breeding for anomalies never appealed to me. I am However, on Identification. As such I have seen and/or collected Mutations of Dekay Brown snakes (I caught a nice leucistic), Scarlett snakes, Scarlett kings...to name a few. Through my friends I have also seen a number of (one of a Kind) snakes like an Anery Rainbow boa and a Coral snake minus the red. But enough. Like I said, field experience counts.

Any way-the guy who has it posted that it does indeed have red on the neck which cancells the Anery ID.

At present I do not sell snakes. The last one lacking cinnamon I saw came from a local dealer and (unfortunately died last year). If you would like the name of the dealer contact me off forum.

As to knowing you...unless you are in the south Florida area, or I by chanc, met you in Daytona, I don't think so. Anyway...looking back thru the threads I have agreed with you on other occasions so I don't think there is anything special going on.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

.....which is the point here. You are an "expert" in the field & identifying taxa of FL. I am considered by some as an expert in identifying mutations. I consider that my expertise. I have traveled from NY to TX to many of the top breeding programs in the counrty to familiarize myself w/ the characteristics that make up this breeding "craze". Funny you should mention the Anery Brazilian Rainbow as an example. I forgot to mention that animal on my list. I have photographed adult specimens @ Brian Sharp's collection in VA. The neonates are silver & the adults are BROWN. That would eliminate your arguement that "because it had brown on the neck" the Pygmy Rattler was not an Anery. As I stated before, many Anery. animals have brown & yellow. Looking at the photo agaion I fail to see any sign of orange on that animal. The most important thing to realize is that almost every mutation (unless manmade by producing Dbl. Homozygous animals) available today came from a visible morph CAUGHT IN THE WILD!!!

If you want to carry the arguement further, wild caught anerys of P.gutta-often have brown saddles and yellow throats. Anery Brooks Kings are found in the wild (at Turkey Point). In both cases these are extremly different looking from the norm.

If you are familiar with the Short tailed snake (Stilosoma extenuatum) there is a similar situation to the pygmies in that there is a phase that has an orange stain on it's back and a "gray" phase that lacks this. Ashton's hand book, Snakes of Florida has a nice photo of each.

In my own collection I have S. Fla Mole kings that have a yellow stain (line) down their back. Marti Snipes's don't.

Since we are talking about a species that has very little color except black and gray to start with, I fail to see enough difference to matter.

I find you comment interesting on the Brazilian Rainbow. The Rainbow I saw and have a photo of was at Underground Reptiles. It was a Columbian (I did not say Brazilian) and I estimate-just under three foot and had no brown.

The issue as I see in It is that Pygmies are normally grey and black. I have seen everything from strong reddish colored line to the total lack of it. Much of this variation accurs in the same litter. Not an unsual thing as stronger variation is common in Kingsnakes for example.

Oh...Read waynes post of January 19-this thread, where he says the snake was in shed and once it cleared up you could see the red.

You don't list your age or location but I can tell you that those wild caught mutations you mention(in some cases)were just being caught when I saw them. I had one of the first wild caught Patternless pines (they are from the silver Springs area).

Oh...And My identification skills go way beyound just Fla. as my fasiation has been with the various tribes of Colubri and viper. Probably Cobras and asian pythons are the groups I know the least about.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Are you familiar with the "silver" EDB's that occur around Bell Fla?

I also IDed some of the first anery Boa constricters that came in to Fla in the eighties-and ended up mis-IDed at a local shop.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."