Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi again. First off, I really appreciate all the help from everyone regarding building a rack for my Ball Pythons.

I need to ask, if I were to use Melamine for the shelves of the rack, could it possibly melt or anything like that (hooked into a thermostat I mean)... Would Plywood catch fire? With the temps at like 90 degrees, could it be a fire hazard? Please let me know. Thanks a lot.

Ses01

Melamine won't catch fire at 90' and wood if you paint it with any interior paint won't either. I assume you are using heat tape. I had the same question. Those were my answers.
Just keep in mind you should have space between the tape and tub. Not only to prevent wear from sliding but the tape needs air flow.

I had a tub with those stupid nubs on the bottom like 4 feet in the corner one ended up sitting on the tape.
Next there was a melted hole.

Thanks a lot for the help. I really appreciate it. Should I get tubs that have no *nubs* and just get some sort of little rubber things to glue on the tub?

Thanks.

Ses01

I assume you are going with a sterlite iris or rubbermaid tub.
I use the sterilite tubs for my balls the long 41qt ones. Same tubs in Jeff Ronne's racks. They come in two types one with the little corner nubs like the size of a quarter but spherical in nature. And the second with a raised foot all the way around the tub those are the ones I use. Rubbermaid tubs have feet simialar. I don't know if they have some tubs without feet. Iris don't have feet but are expensive. Rubber would have problems sliding and adhereing plastic rails would be a burden. If you have to settle with the little corner feet ones. Make sure they don't rest on the tape.

>>Thanks a lot for the help. I really appreciate it. Should I get tubs that have no *nubs* and just get some sort of little rubber things to glue on the tub?
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Ses01
The tubs you have should be fine, place the tub in the rack, take note of where the feet will glide. Install the heat tape so the feet do not come in contact with the tape, its pretty simple. Now you have ventilation for the heat tape, in the event of t-stat failure. H-tape doesn't run much over 120 degrees when used with no t-stat, the problem comes in when the heat has no way to escape. You get a build up of heat and the tape or surrounding materials start to melt/char. What ever you decide on, plan on things failing (t-stats and such) SSnorkel came close to a fire. So now he decides to cover the h-tape with metal, if things fail again all that heat build up will be transferred to the combustible material, instead of being transferred between two materials. The only problem with h-tape, is the possibility of a build up of heat,(provided its been properly connected) this is prevented by allowing for the heat to escape. I'm in the trades and have a good understanding as to how things work. Who are you going to listen to the guy who nearly burns down his setup (which i can hardly believe he is giving advice), but it does help collaborate my point. I just write this so others will understand how to properly use the material, and refute poor advice, although well meant i'm sure. I mean no offense, but unless one has really researched this topic they should not be giving advice. Do the research yourself, so you can be sure of the facts. I could be wrong, but not likly, at least on this topic. Clint

>>What ever you decide on, plan on things failing (t-stats and such) SSnorkel came close to a fire. So now he decides to cover the h-tape with metal, if things fail again all that heat build up will be transferred to the combustible material, instead of being transferred between two materials. The only problem with h-tape, is the possibility of a build up of heat,(provided its been properly connected) this is prevented by allowing for the heat to escape. I'm in the trades and have a good understanding as to how things work. Who are you going to listen to the guy who nearly burns down his setup (which i can hardly believe he is giving advice), but it does help collaborate my point. I just write this so others will understand how to properly use the material, and refute poor advice, although well meant i'm sure. I mean no offense, but unless one has really researched this topic they should not be giving advice. Do the research yourself, so you can be sure of the facts. I could be wrong, but not likly, at least on this topic. Clint

You're "in the trades"? What the heck does that mean? Whatever "the trades" are, they obviously don't include good reading comprehension, knowledge of spelling/gammar/punctuation or an understanding of insulation...

Let's be clear: I had a problem because I bought a cheap-ass thermostat and it went bad. My Helix controlled racks and cages have been running fine for... Jesus, almost 10 years! And they don't use a whole lot of power because I don't waste energy heating air.

Finally, I suggested using metal as a way of distributing heat and keeping the heat tape from getting damaged. My racks consist of one long shelf that holds multiple boxes and one piece of heat tape that runs under the back of each box across the width of the shelf. Since the boxes are pulled out frequently, there's a lot of wear and tear on the heat tape. This would be true regardless of the box type. Since you seem to have missed the point the first time around: I've been using this design forever and it has never had a problem.

Your suggested setup is certainly workable: you pay to heat the tape, the tape heats the air, some of the air heats the box (and the rest floats off to heat your snake room), the box heats the substrate, and eventually the animals gets a little bit of heat. If the air in your snake room is cool (as mine is during the winter), you may have trouble getting your boxes to an optimal temperature even if you use 11" wide heat tape and run it full blast.

Personally, I'd prefer to transfer as much of the heat from the heat tape into the box as possible. It saves me money, gives me the ability to achieve higher temperatures (even with a reasonable amount of substrate), and means that I don't have to run my tapes at full-blast all the time.

>>>>What ever you decide on, plan on things failing (t-stats and such) SSnorkel came close to a fire. So now he decides to cover the h-tape with metal, if things fail again all that heat build up will be transferred to the combustible material, instead of being transferred between two materials. The only problem with h-tape, is the possibility of a build up of heat,(provided its been properly connected) this is prevented by allowing for the heat to escape. I'm in the trades and have a good understanding as to how things work. Who are you going to listen to the guy who nearly burns down his setup (which i can hardly believe he is giving advice), but it does help collaborate my point. I just write this so others will understand how to properly use the material, and refute poor advice, although well meant i'm sure. I mean no offense, but unless one has really researched this topic they should not be giving advice. Do the research yourself, so you can be sure of the facts. I could be wrong, but not likly, at least on this topic. Clint
>>
>>You're "in the trades"? What the heck does that mean? Whatever "the trades" are, they obviously don't include good reading comprehension, knowledge of spelling/gammar/punctuation or an understanding of insulation...
>>
>>Let's be clear: I had a problem because I bought a cheap-ass thermostat and it went bad. My Helix controlled racks and cages have been running fine for... Jesus, almost 10 years! And they don't use a whole lot of power because I don't waste energy heating air.
>>
>>Finally, I suggested using metal as a way of distributing heat and keeping the heat tape from getting damaged. My racks consist of one long shelf that holds multiple boxes and one piece of heat tape that runs under the back of each box across the width of the shelf. Since the boxes are pulled out frequently, there's a lot of wear and tear on the heat tape. This would be true regardless of the box type. Since you seem to have missed the point the first time around: I've been using this design forever and it has never had a problem.
>>
>>Your suggested setup is certainly workable: you pay to heat the tape, the tape heats the air, some of the air heats the box (and the rest floats off to heat your snake room), the box heats the substrate, and eventually the animals gets a little bit of heat. If the air in your snake room is cool (as mine is during the winter), you may have trouble getting your boxes to an optimal temperature even if you use 11" wide heat tape and run it full blast.
>>
>>Personally, I'd prefer to transfer as much of the heat from the heat tape into the box as possible. It saves me money, gives me the ability to achieve higher temperatures (even with a reasonable amount of substrate), and means that I don't have to run my tapes at full-blast all the time.

Here we go, the trades= elctricians, plumbers, masons, carpenters and the list goes on. Get it now. The facts are, to trap heat from an electrial source is courting with disaster. Using h-tape without an airspace of some sort is in contradiction to the specs. An air space being a routed space in the shelf to accomadate the h-tape or an elevated tub. Speaking of comprehension, what you are talking about is the properties of thermal mass, not insulation. Sheet metal doesn't insulate at all, what is the r-value of your sheet metal? Thermal mass is an objects ability to obsorb and retain heat and disperse it after the heat source has been extinquished. Seems your the one who doesn't understand. Put the ego away and research the "facts". All you have is opinion, and good gammar? I'm not writing a literatural classic here, just conveying facts. They can be looked up and collaborated. If i write well or not matters little when ones house is in ashes. Just this dumb Masons writing, before you open your keyboard you should have your facts lined up. Clint

>>>>>>What ever you decide on, plan on things failing (t-stats and such) SSnorkel came close to a fire. So now he decides to cover the h-tape with metal, if things fail again all that heat build up will be transferred to the combustible material, instead of being transferred between two materials. The only problem with h-tape, is the possibility of a build up of heat,(provided its been properly connected) this is prevented by allowing for the heat to escape. I'm in the trades and have a good understanding as to how things work. Who are you going to listen to the guy who nearly burns down his setup (which i can hardly believe he is giving advice), but it does help collaborate my point. I just write this so others will understand how to properly use the material, and refute poor advice, although well meant i'm sure. I mean no offense, but unless one has really researched this topic they should not be giving advice. Do the research yourself, so you can be sure of the facts. I could be wrong, but not likly, at least on this topic. Clint

I'm assuming you're a "mason" as in bricklayer, not "mason" as in freemason, correct? If that's the case... no offense but I wouldn't give electrical/carpentry advice from a mason any more weight than I would roofing advice from a plumber!

Since you still seem to have problems with reading comprehension, I'll note: I never suggested that metal was an insulator! In fact, I said exactly the opposite: I was "using metal as a way of distributing heat and keeping the heat tape from getting damaged". What I suggested was that air was an insulator, and a pretty good one at that! That's why you're using two pieces of 11-inch wide heat tape whereas my setup only needs one. Since you neglected to reply to my question about temperatures, I can only assume you admit that your setup is hugely inefficient.

Personally, I'd like to see the "specs" you're reading on mylar heat tape. Is your comprehension there as good as it is with my posts? As I'm sure you're aware, heat tape was originally designed for use in commercial greenhouses where it was difficult to get seeds to germinate and group during winner. The solution was to wire up some heat tape, run it down the entire length of your potting benches, then place palettes of seedlings directly on the tape. Of course, the manufacturer recommends, as I do, that you control the temperature using a thermostat, rheostat, or other device.

Empirically, I think you'd have to say that my design works. I've had the rack going continuously for 9 or 10 years and I've never had a single problem with it. And let's not forget that I didn't come up with the design myself: I stole most of it from folks like Bob Clark, Dave and Tracy Barker, Bill and Kathy Love, Kevin McCurley, etc.

Yes, I'll admit that your design is safer if a thermostat fails in the 'on' position. But...I've had almost a dozen thermostats running continuously that same 9-10 year period. In that time, I've had a single failure of one cheap thermostat, which I wouldn't recommend anyone use. And that failure was not related to the rack designs we're discussing! Even when the failure occured, nothing bad happened. As you yourself admitted: heat tape doesn't get very hot. At the 120-degrees you specify, it's cooler than a radiant heat panel, 60-watt light blulb, ceramic heat emitter, the average 300-watt halogen lamp, or the hot water coming out of your faucet! Runaway heat tape may melt your plastic boxes, but it's far less likely to start a fire than any of the other items I just listed...

Finally, I think you're the one that needs to check your ego, do a bit of research, and broaden your horizons. Maybe you don't know everything? In the meantime, send me your phone number. You can hold your breath waiting for me to call and tell you that my house has burned down due to the way I'm using heat tape

I'll reply to this just for the heck of it, nothing wrong with a good debate. I am a mason, point is i'm in contact with the other trades men often enough. If we have questions for each other we ask, thats how it works. You didn't design the rack, thats fine. The hobby has come a long way in 9-10 years, since then its generally accepted a safe practice to provide an air space for h-tape. I use 2 pieces of h-tape because my room is cool at night in wisconsin, and my tubs are 2'd and 3'w. My thought is its better have a more watts available, rather than having the h-tape run continuously. I don't see mine being very inefficent with a 1/2" air space. I've never got a reading much over 90 degrees with the system running, via temp gun. The t-stat is set at 87 degrees. I thought for myself, researched many designs, looked into the reasons why h-tape fails and came up with my own design. If my electric bill runs a few more dollars a month so what. I'm just presenting the facts, look into the matter for yourself. I have the bean farms flexiwatt info/use sheet, i researched this myself. Its not my ego, and yes if you cover up a 60 watt bulb it will ignite and no 120 degree water will not start a fire. Show me some literature which states that it is safe to cover an electrical heat source of any kind, you can't. Put the ego away. I wouldn't wish your home in ashes, but the potential for a problem is there. Clint

>> I am a mason, point is i'm in contact with the other trades men often enough. If we have questions for each other we ask, thats how it works.

I'm a hobbiest woodworker; many of my friends are full-time carpenters and general contractors. In addition, I have a degree in electrical engineering and computer science. So, who's friends know more about snake rack design, yours or mine? My guess is that none of the tradesmen either of us has talked with has a whole lot of experience building reptile enclosures!

As I said, however, I've talked to quite a few professional breeders who have been using these same techniques for quite a while; 30+ years in some cases!

>>The hobby has come a long way in 9-10 years, since then its generally accepted a safe practice to provide an air space for h-tape.

Please: show me any piece written documentation of this fact. I'm not talking about some website put together by a high-school kid, I'm talking about actual manufacturer's documentation.

As far as I can tell, heating technology is pretty much the same now as it was when I built my racks a decade ago. There're a few new thermostats on the market and prices on some items have come down a bit, but other than that I've haven't seen anything new: you've still got heat tape, CHEs, RHPs, hot rocks, heat lamps, etc. If there's been some big breakthrough, you'll have to let me know what it is...

>>I'm just presenting the facts, look into the matter for yourself.

You are presenting your opinions. You've failed to provide any concrete or even anecdotal facts that I can see...

>>Show me some literature which states that it is safe to cover an electrical heat source of any kind, you can't.

Electric radiant floor heating.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it, since it's pretty neat stuff and I would think it would be popular in Wisconsin. You put down a layer of thinset or self-leveling cement, embed an electric heating mesh into it, then you put down tile on top of it. When the thinset or mortar hardens, the electric heat-radiating mesh is completely encased. And, before you start whinging: yes, you can install this stuff under hardwood. I've attached a link to one UL-listed product. I'm sure you can google and find a host of others...

Admit it: this sounds remarkably similar to the setup I've described for heat tape?

WarmlyYours radiant floor installation

I concede you win. I've read enough material from a variety of sources to warrant my "opinion". In the end we have presented two views, debated the points to the extreme and people will take what they want from it. Which was my intent to begin with. I researched this topic well, every instance of a fire (that i read) was due to the suffocation of the h-tape. One doesn't need to have good gammar or an electrical degree to figure in a solution. The keeping/warming of herps is an accident waiting to happen with all the different electrical devices we employ. There are things we can do to minimize the potential. Clint

>>Hi again. First off, I really appreciate all the help from everyone regarding building a rack for my Ball Pythons.
>>
>>I need to ask, if I were to use Melamine for the shelves of the rack, could it possibly melt or anything like that (hooked into a thermostat I mean)... Would Plywood catch fire? With the temps at like 90 degrees, could it be a fire hazard? Please let me know. Thanks a lot.

If you run heat tape without a thermostat or rheostat, you're asking for trouble. I had 11-inch wide heat tape sandwiched between a Vision cage and piece of plywood. My thermostat went bad and the heat tape ran full blast for quite a while before I noticed it (luckily, the cage was empty). When I finally discovered the problem, the bottom of the cage was melted and several layers of the plywood were blackened and charred...

>>>>Hi again. First off, I really appreciate all the help from everyone regarding building a rack for my Ball Pythons.
>>>>
>>>>I need to ask, if I were to use Melamine for the shelves of the rack, could it possibly melt or anything like that (hooked into a thermostat I mean)... Would Plywood catch fire? With the temps at like 90 degrees, could it be a fire hazard? Please let me know. Thanks a lot.
>>
>>If you run heat tape without a thermostat or rheostat, you're asking for trouble. I had 11-inch wide heat tape sandwiched between a Vision cage and piece of plywood. My thermostat went bad and the heat tape ran full blast for quite a while before I noticed it (luckily, the cage was empty). When I finally discovered the problem, the bottom of the cage was melted and several layers of the plywood were blackened and charred...
Thats because heat built up due to no ventilation. Clint