Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello,

I just finished watching the second day of Condie Rice's testimony on the floor of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, where they just cast their vote for her nomination.

Condie Rice's view of the world:

* She maintained throughout that it is not the job of the Secretary of State to deal with economic issues, and refused to comment on whether she preferred the Dollar or the Euro to have the largest reserve.

* She maintained throughout that we were adequately prepared for the Iraq war.

* She maintained throughout that we have trained 120,000 Iraqi troops that are capable of replacing American troops.

* She maintained throughout that Al Queda's territory has shrunk.

Reality:

* Our economic relationship with parties throughout the world has a huge influence on our ability to negotiate with them.

* We clearly did not have enough troops to secure Iraq after the fall of Baghdad, nor did we have adequate equipment (armor, etc.)

* People on the ground in Iraq say that we have more like 10,000 Iraqi troops that are trained and capable of replacing Americans on the battle field.

* Al Queda's territory has grown, most glaringly in Iraq, where they were NOT before the war, and where they are in massive numbers since the war.

Despite all of this, most members of the panel voted her in as Secretary of State. Two members, Senator Kerry and Senator Boxer, voted nae.

- tethered

Welcome to the world according to Bush-part 2

It is said.."Lies repeated often enough take on a truth of their own". Obviously this is the philosophy of the Bush camp.

Like Conga saying that the war in Iraq was to eliminate the danger of WMD's. Though there were none they will pursue the lie so that the non thinking members of our public can cling to the myth.

What scares me is that Colin Powell at least added a voice with some common sense to the mix. But then, that's why he's out (barring the official excuses)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That's interesting info. Could you post a link to it. I find it a little questionable is all. ONLY because barbra boxhead and dimwit kerry are the only two that opposed her. Two of the most left leaning people in the senate. I'd like to know all the facts from all sources so let us all see where you got this. Not questioning YOU, just want to verify.
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Thane

There's a full transcript on NYTimes.com and probably CSPAN.org. Search google if you can't find it at either of those.

Even Richard Lugar voiced his concern on the issues I listed in the first post. And Joe Biden stated that the only reason he was voting for her was because he is co-chair of the committee and would need to preserve his relationship with her.

Here's what I have (see link).
condirice

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Thane

can't do that. I found out about it the old fashioned way....on TV-Her own words.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well, without seeing a transcript of what was truly said and the context of the statements/replies or seeing it myself, I still question it. Interesting info. though. Not sure I buy it with ol' boxer and Kerry the only two to oppose her (Biden did to, but voted FOR her confirmation with reservations).
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Thane

I appreciate the input of those here that took the time out to watch Condie Rice doe what she does best.

Act like Bushes wife...

One thing that was left out was this: During this whole maylay, whilst she was being grilled for glaring ineffeciency, stupidity and downright culpability in LIES and deception...she uttered these venerable words:

How dare you question my intergity(Or something thereabouts)

Now...I thought that was what this questioning panel was for..to ask QUESTIONS.
I guess I was wrong...

One OTHER thing that I have noticed is that people often ARENT willing to engage her, because she can then play the RACE card. How "DARE" someone question a BLACK WOMAN, about governemnt policy and impropiety. That would be RACIST.That would be wrong.

Nice place to hide....snuggly..and warm...

Only one problem with it....to do so you have to be SEEN as being of that particualr RACE, in good standing. Whether physically, but more important through your deeds that affect that particlar segment of society.

Condie FLUNKS this test with an "F"

As an African American(My father is black) I can say that for a good percentage of the African Americans in this country...Condolezza Rice is no more Black than Boy George is straight.....She is not viewed as "Black" by members of the Black community. And rightfully so....she is MUCH more attuned to the Upper Class Power consortium in this country than to most blacks. BUSHS concerns ARE her concerns...she is wealthy, truly wealthy, and completlly disengaged from the day to day cultural struggles that African Americans in this country struggle with on a day to day basis.

But she gets to play the race card anyway...

Doesnt seem right...

LUCKILY, BARBARA BOXER had the "HUEVOS" to stand up and call attention to her many misddes, and out and out lies. Mmmm..Barbara Boxer....a white lady....speaking on behalf of the poor , downtrodden, homeless, blue collar people.

Glad she isnt playing the race card too.

She just did what was right.

Last UNUSUAL fact: Condolezza referred to George W. Bush as her "Husband" in a newscast. Good trick, as he is allready married and she is single.

No race card here....I agree, she could be Bushs wife.

Fredrick Albury

P.S.
Protest this inaguaration in your city.

One does wonder about this.Truly. The woman hardly ever smiles. Heck...even Hillary smiles. Now thats a scary thought. Seems like Condie has a permanent SNEER upon her face. Guess thats the look of the upperclass. How to heal it? Botox perhaps?

Botox....nectar of the Gods...

Fred Albury

One does wonder about this.Truly. The woman hardly ever smiles. Heck...even Hillary smiles. Now thats a scary thought. Seems like Condie has a permanent SNEER upon her face. Guess thats the look of the upperclass. How to heal it? Botox perhaps?

(ME)Condi just crawled out of the coffin after years of rest and is looking, looking for food. She sneers with hunger. Hillary is smiling and happy. A well fed (perhaps OVERfed) vampire CAN smile and withstand sunlight in short bursts.
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Thane

LUCKILY, BARBARA BOXER had the "HUEVOS" to stand up and call attention to her many misddes, and out and out lies. Mmmm..Barbara Boxer....a white lady....speaking on behalf of the poor , downtrodden, homeless, blue collar people.

(ME)I think you can only go so far with this race non-sense. I'm sick of affirmative racism myself. How about judging by deeds and actions. In MY experience thuggishness, criminal minds and the like come in all colors. So does intelligence, common sense and peacefulness. Skin color means nothing except to those affirmative racists and activists and people that wish to live in the past forever and ever and want to get paid for things that didn't happen to them.
BTW. I think barbra boxer HAS huevos
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Thane

Let me go on record to state that I am definetly FOR affirmative action. The scales had been totally imbalanced for along time before that was legislated, and to think that somehow, through peoples(sic) goodwill, that they would become righted WITHOUT governement intervention is to beleive in fairy tales of the highest caliber.

I am also in FAVOR of reparations.....by MAJOR companies, who benefitted and would NOT have the sahre of the market that they have now.....in fact would not even had even BEEN in the market...had it not been for the FREE labor they extracted from the backs of African Men...Women..and yes Children.

I am also in favor of reparations for Native Americans. You come here...steal my land....annihalate my people...and enslave them to live on land that is less desirable....and you dont think that a DEBT is owed?

On the Condie Rice thing..I think that she uses that race card...even though her life doesnt even RESEMBLE that of most African American folks in this country..I compare he to some sports stars.....who are about as much like you and I as Geraldo Rivera is like Emilo Zapata.

Just clarifying my position on things, lest there be confusion. You can disagree, as that is your right, and I would not take that away from you.

"I am also in FAVOR of reparations.....by MAJOR companies, who benefitted and would NOT have the sahre of the market that they have now.....in fact would not even had even BEEN in the market...had it not been for the FREE labor they extracted from the backs of African Men...Women..and yes Children.

I am also in favor of reparations for Native Americans. You come here...steal my land....annihalate my people...and enslave them to live on land that is less desirable....and you dont think that a DEBT is owed?"

To whom should these reparations be paid?

To the DESCENDANTS of those that suffered the institution of slavery.....FROM those that profited the most from it....and whose fortunes have at their core the free labor which they profitted so heavily from. No..this doesnt mean that every peson that is white needs to shell out money....but the businesses that OLWE their very beginnings to this institutions should be doing SOMETHING.

As far as Native Americans...the U.S. Government should repay them. Especially tribes that cant open casinos to become self sufficient on their own. You know...the very SAME government that just allocated OUR Homleand Security funds(Read massive tax dollars) for Bushs $40 million dollar inagural ball, so as to make everything safe and all.....

Again, my opinion...

Fred Albury

I have a hard time wrapping my head around corporations, whose current stockholders are generations removed from the stockholders whose decisions caused any damages, having to pay reparations to people who are generations removed from the people whom damages were inflicted upon.

A mataphor would be me suing you because your grandfather stole property from my grandfather.

Have to agree with tethered. My son (if I had one) should not pay for my transgression.

While I sympathise with the concept it is the same as saying the the Egyptians should pay the Jews for enslaving them. Or Americans should pay England for stealing her colonies.

History happens and it is not fair. Time enough to get over it and work with the hand delt.

I oppose Affirmative Action because on an individual level it hurts minorities as well as whites. Every minority person who gets a job thru AA has to deal with the fact that (at least in part)they did not get the job thru their own abilities. Every white person that loses out on a job they might be more qualified for is being made to pay for circumstances that were not their fault.

We said it best in the sixties and it is still true.

You cannot legislate equality.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank...I'll be frank

If your family PROFITED from the slave trade heavily..so much so that they built an corporate empire on its beginning foundation(That of free labor) then I believe YES, your family should pay.It says within the Bible that the sins of the Father reverberate through SEVEN generations of his offspring.

Again..what I am talking about is large BUSINESSES, who have made their money and have done quite well thank you, and whos MEAGER beginnings included or were BUILT upon FREE SLAVE LABOR. Do I think that those companies, so small then, but so rich and powerfull now have a debt to pay towards the offspring of the peoples whose lives they were SO instrumental in ruining?

Your damn right I do.

Does that mean..again..that you...Joe average white guy..should somehow have to shell out of his pocket and give what little he has?

No, thats ridiculous.

Corporations...big ones, dont operate under the same sets of rules that you and I do Frank...they get to write things off on taxes we couldnt...bilk their investors..and if it all collapses...declare bankruptcy....only to spring up somewhere else...debts unpaid....to start a MAJOR business anew.

I have no problem whatsoever beleiving that these entities ought to be held accountable for their past actions. I also have no problem believing that even 6 generations removed from the even..that a debt isnt owed to the offspring of said people by those same companies that **PROFITTED** so **LUCRATIVELY** from the slave trade.

As for Affirmative Action: Bottem line, if it werent for that, many key African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans would not have the positions/offices they currently hold. Are they not good enough, not up to standard..you may ask?
To which I will answer this: Without Affirmative Action, you leave it up to the good natured and fair minded people to determine who will get a certain job..hopefully on their MERIT, .

But what happens when DECADES of bigotry and racism permeate the thought pattern of those "Good natured and fair minded people"...and they use THAT as the barometer to decide who will have or will not have..the house...the job....the life..

Your right you cant mandate morality. But you cant leave it to the good nature of folks to not continue cycles of hate for generations to come. I hear you whining about Merit..and frankly agree...but again I say...are decisions truly made on MERIT alone..or is FAMILIARITY and COMFORT a huge factor?

If it is, then AFFIRMATIVE ACTION is necessary.

My opinions

Fred A

Fred, I have been a victim of discrimination. For my race and for my religious beliefs. I have lost jobs because both reasons.

You talk about ending bigotry...but when innocent peole are discriminated to give less qualified people jobs and opportunities it breeds resentment.

As to the Bible...I do not respect that passage as it promotes the rediculous assumption that the sins of the father are passed to the son.

Like I tried to point out. if you want to play the recompensation game there are a lot of groups that could make that claim. While your at it how about compensating the American descendants of slaves that were sold to white slavers by the Kingdom of Dahomey? Or why not the Arabs who still do it today....?

The list is a lot bigger than a bunch of crackers and disreputable carpetbaggers....

(excuse) Got to go...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Three small words........

LEVEL PLAYING FIELD

THERE ISNT ONE..........

And UNFORTUNATELY...it is OFTEN cut along racial lines....and ALSO along economic lines(Poor Whites in places like Tennesse receive substandard educations and limited opportunities, haveing done nothing to deserv4 that....an issue of class ans the division between those that have and have not)

In my OPINION, you cant expect two groups of people to compete against each other for a job..position..title....opportunity..when one of them has received:

An INFERIOR EDUCATION: Due in part to low budget funding and a complete divorcement of society to educate children in low income areas to the utmost of their ability k-12thgrade.

A HAMSTRUNG higher education: Due in part to the lack of foundation that was laid k-12,which if it was substandard,can set the tone for excellence throughout life.

An environment repleat with crime, drugs, and rampant unemployment.CYCLES of poverty, and a lack of general hope that things willbe better if you make them. NO major stores in communties or industry at all, all smaller business owned by people that live OUTSIDE the community and tap into its limited resources for their own benefit(example: liquor store every four blocks in area with 79% unemployment rate)

To asssume that people from such backgrounds can somehow just overcome them, overcome the hate, the fear, the pervasive mind set of hopelessness and also overcome the inferior tools they are given...while their counterparts at middle to uppermiddle class neighborhoods receive:

Good educations that prepare them for a transition into higher education and even better jobs....positions...opportunities.

Positive reinforcement that they can and will become successfull(After all...mom and dad are eh?)

Financial stability: IN THEIR HOME,on their street, in their neighborhoods. At least as much stability as one can have nowadadays.

And this does not even take fully into account racism, other than institutionalized racism that rears its ugly head alack of opportunity caused by underfunding and mismanagment in inner city and rural schools FREQUENTED BY PRIMARILY MINORITIES AND POOR WHITES

LEVEL PLAYING FIELD? I THINK NOT...NOT EVEN CLOSE

Enter affirmative action.

NOW..i can hear people saying "Why should WE have to pay for the education, in the form of increased taxes, for children that arent ours....that dont live in our area? Cant their parents pay for it?

To witt I will answer thusly:

We will either pay a smaller amount now...to increase education and opportunity for these children, or we will pay exorbitantly more later, when we house them in our prisons, jails, halfwayhouses...workcamps...all paid for by our tax dollars.

And it costs a small fortune to house and feed an inmate.

But hey! it creates secure jobs!!For guards, medical personnel, admin clerks,psychologists etc etc

Keep the hotel full!

Enough of my rant...thnaks for reading this far

FREDRICK ALBURY

Like I said...I feel your pain. Unfortunately there is no such thing as a level playing field.

AA trys to establish this and as I said-created an entirely different form of discrimination. Employers who are approached by AA applicants mostly see them as someone who is riding the gravy train, that they HAVE to hire. Still more resentment when to make a race quota they sometimes end up hiring a person who is less qualified and less ambitious.

One of the problems with the educational system is that it is more focus on bringing up borderline students (as well as being swamped in many cases by students who were not English speaking to begin with). The focus on the more gifted students has been sacrificed.

In my state they are hiking the tuitions on Junior colleges and charging for 15 credits (even if you don't take them). Think of what that does to a student with questionable finances.

My father supported us by hand picking beans in a field till he could find better work. He died broke even though he was extremely bright. His work put my brother thru college and I managed thru the GI bill to aquire some college.

Granted we did not frow up in a ghetto, but we were heavily discriminated by our heavy Jewish population because we were German. I lost jobs because "no one wanted a Nazi working for them".

Like I said earlier...Life is not fair. My wife (a straight A student) sits in college struggling to pay her way thru and next to her sits a white girl 21 years old that complains her rich daddy makes her go to school instead of riding horses which is what she wants to do.

I think that before you seek a system that lowers the quality of the workforce by placing race ahead of ability...the priority should be improving the education for all kids.

The only practical solution is to work from "the ground up". Concentrate on making your neiborhoods better and safer so that good teachers will feel safe to teach there, and businesses will fel safe to open their doors. Eliminate the drug dealers and the criminals, who only succeed because they are sheltered.

The only way to acheive respect in any society is to earn it. I remember many years ago a man of color came to my father's house. he was an educated man (I beleave a lawyer) His house had burned down and his wife and kids were homeless. Rather than feed off the welfare system, this man was going door to door seeking any work that he could do to feed his family. He totaly refused charity. My father ended up allowing him to mow our lawn so he would except the money and food we offered.

That has always stuck with me. That man I respected-because he had the guts to keep fighting rather than let society give him the easy road.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I watched the majority of the testimony and I must say that I don't think anyone was hesitant to engage her. Many tough questions were asked, all of which she she responded to but didn't necessarily answer.

I heard about the incident with her calling him her husband but haven't been able to find a link or anything. Any URLs?

- tethered