Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've never kept any rats other than corns, and i had some black rat questions. About how large do they get and what is their temperment like. Also, what size cage am i gunna be looking at for an adult. Texas Rats are a bit more agressive right? at the moment im trying to decide between a leucistic black rat, or a leucistic texas rat? any suggestians. I currently have 5 other snakes and plenty of lizards, im just unfamiliar with rats. Please respond, Thanks alot guys

Well, insofar as cage size, you'll need at least a 20 gallon when it's an adult, at which point it'll be between 5 and 7 feet. I would recommend a 29, if for no other reason than that you can set it up to look cooler, as well as being more interesting for your snake in terms of climbing (they really like to climb), and space to stretch out. Temperament varies from snake to snake - as do most things - but the general consensus seems to be that Texas rats are a little more irritable. I believe - don't quote me on this - that leucistic black rats are more expensive than leucistic Texas rats, which may or may not have something to do with the fact that there are lots of leucistic Texas rats that have this weird "bug eyed" look, that apparently (according to some recent posts) has to do with inbreeding.

I have a full grown rat snake and I keep it in a 30 gallon and I dont feel it could be any smaller. A 20 would just be too much of a cram for an adult rat snake, it really doesnt give them much mobility.
Ideally, I'd even go bigger, but at minimum, I say a 30 long.

Just my 2 cents, dont wanna rub anyone the wrong way......
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Tom
TCJ Herps
"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

To the person who started this thread: Looks like you should listen to these other people.

To the person who humbly disagreed with me: You don't have to disagree HUMBLY - you can be assertive without starting a fight here. I know some of these forums are crawling with people waiting to start something, but we don't do that here. LOL Insofar as the size difference goes, my obsoleta isn't full grown yet, so, point well taken.

Either snake could get 6 feet long and need a cage about half that length. I have 2 of each and they are all great animals. One of the Texas rats was a biter as a baby, and they DO have a reputation for being a bit nippy. I would not hesitate to buy the Texas, however. You could get the black rat if you don't really care about the cost and want a slightly higher probability that it will not be nippy. To guarantees either way, as any baby ratsnake can be a biter. Most should calm down with regular handling. Both snakes, in my opinion, are excellent animals. Duffy

the texas leucy rat snake is like a leucy black rat with a little cayenne pepper added on... lol. i personally think a 20 long or 29 gallon tank would be too small for a full grown black rat snake. mine are going to be living in fairly large cages.. 4' long, 2' deep, and 2' tall.

i have a licorice stick black rat snake, i've been told their temperment is extremly similar to that of a leucistic... she's the most docile thing i've ever held. however i have a regular black rat .... hes a spirit. i like the contrast between the two, also.

then i have a texas bairdi... never bit me but a very distinct personality. she's a great snake....

its really up to if you want to spend more money for a generally docile snake, or get one thats more active.

all leucys can have bug eyes if inbred too much, by the way.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

the generally accepted minimum cage size is about half the snakes length by a quarter to a third its length. Some people use bigger, many don't. It's strictly about judgment and personal preference. If you want a good display, you'll probably want to go larger. If you will keep several snakes, you may stay smaller.

>>I've never kept any rats other than corns, and i had some black rat questions. About how large do they get and what is their temperment like. Also, what size cage am i gunna be looking at for an adult. Texas Rats are a bit more agressive right? at the moment im trying to decide between a leucistic black rat, or a leucistic texas rat? any suggestians. I currently have 5 other snakes and plenty of lizards, im just unfamiliar with rats. Please respond, Thanks alot guys

I like 40 gallon tanks for my adult black rats. They can easily exceed 6 feet and the extra room can be good for exersise.

Now if this your first rat snake I would go with the black rat. They are usually pretty docile and they are always a good introduction to rat snakes IMHO.
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Like I said; I`m Gonna Getcha Good!

I hope no one takes this the wrong way but I find this post somewhat amusing. There has been plenty of good advice on cage size. As far as I am concerned, the bigger the cage, the better it will be for the snake.

What I find amusing is the whole question of getting a leucistic Black Rat Snake or a leucistic Texas Rat Snake. These snakes are subspecies of each other (basically they only differ in color). If they are leucistic (i.e.: white with blue eyes) how could you tell them apart? There are no markings to look at.

I have been searching for some time now for report of someone finding in the wild a leucistic Black Rat Snake that was used to produce the current lines of leucistic Black Rats. Can someone point me to this field report? What can I tell you, I am very skeptical about there being any true leucistic Black Rats.

but you are exactly right. Sounds like someone may be blowing a little sunshine around about the leucy E. o. obsoleta.....

>>I hope no one takes this the wrong way but I find this post somewhat amusing. There has been plenty of good advice on cage size. As far as I am concerned, the bigger the cage, the better it will be for the snake.
>>
>>What I find amusing is the whole question of getting a leucistic Black Rat Snake or a leucistic Texas Rat Snake. These snakes are subspecies of each other (basically they only differ in color). If they are leucistic (i.e.: white with blue eyes) how could you tell them apart? There are no markings to look at.
>>
>>I have been searching for some time now for report of someone finding in the wild a leucistic Black Rat Snake that was used to produce the current lines of leucistic Black Rats. Can someone point me to this field report? What can I tell you, I am very skeptical about there being any true leucistic Black Rats.

Actually, after doing a quick net search, I found a dealer who is claiming to have not only leucistic black rats, but also 100% hets as well. I also found a Dutch site where someone had 1.1 leucistic black rats so maybe there is something more to it. Although I still don't know how you would be able to tell a leucy texas from a leucistic black. Ah well, maybe someone will clear this up...........

>>but you are exactly right. Sounds like someone may be blowing a little sunshine around about the leucy E. o. obsoleta.....
>>
>>>>I hope no one takes this the wrong way but I find this post somewhat amusing. There has been plenty of good advice on cage size. As far as I am concerned, the bigger the cage, the better it will be for the snake.
>>>>
>>>>What I find amusing is the whole question of getting a leucistic Black Rat Snake or a leucistic Texas Rat Snake. These snakes are subspecies of each other (basically they only differ in color). If they are leucistic (i.e.: white with blue eyes) how could you tell them apart? There are no markings to look at.
>>>>
>>>>I have been searching for some time now for report of someone finding in the wild a leucistic Black Rat Snake that was used to produce the current lines of leucistic Black Rats. Can someone point me to this field report? What can I tell you, I am very skeptical about there being any true leucistic Black Rats.

a quick search brought up this thread from a couple years ago...

http://forum.kingsnake.com/rat/messages/11041.html

read through the replys... some interesting info there.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

I realize im new to rats, but from what i've read there are some differences between two, there are the obvious difference in head shape and also the leucy texas seems to have more bluish eyes while the those of the black rat are jet black. I was asking which snake would be best for someone unfamiliar with rats (looking for an answer concerning ease of care and temperment) im not sure how you interpreted that into myself looking for physical differences between the two species. No offence taken (as far as finding my original post amusing) and thanks everyone for all of their advice
Sincerelym
Parcel Mouth

I think part of what Elaphan is saying is that there may well be less difference than some would have you believe. Not only are they very closely related, but even if there have been leucistic black rats found, it is very likely that many snakes sold as leucistic black rats were actually bred from original texas rat stock. I personally would go with the texas because you pretty much know what you are getting, it will be less expensive, and the individual differences you will find between two texans or two blacks will be as pronounced as the differences that you find between the two. Better yet...find a leucistic snake (black/texas or undecided) that YOU are impressed with and buy it. Good luck and enjoy. It will be a good animal. Duffy

The leucistic Black Ratsnake was first created in captivity by breeding Rusty to Rusty. Rusty Black Ratsnakes are a natural variant which occurs in the wild, albeit rarely. Rusty Black Ratsnakes turned out to be heterozygous for leucism, it's rusty coloration seems to be the codominant expression of the leucistic gene in heterozygous animals. Since Texas Ratsnakes heterozygous for leucism are not known to display rusty colors, it's not very likely that leucistic Black Ratsnakes and leucistic Texas Ratsnakes were derived from the same strain. Therefore if a leucistic Black Ratsnake would be bred to a leucistic Texas Ratsnake, who knows what will happen? Has anyone tried this before?

Rusty Black Ratsnakes are a natural variant which occurs in the wild, albeit rarely. Rusty Black Ratsnakes turned out to be heterozygous for leucism, it's rusty coloration seems to be the codominant expression of the leucistic gene in heterozygous animals.

If its a codominant trait then why is it rare in the wild? I say bull butter!!

As for Leucistic rat snakes, I suggest that anyone interested should consult the following publication:
Bechtel, H.B., and E. Bechtel. 1985. Genetics of color mutations in the snake, Elaphe obsoleta. Journal of Heredity. 76:7-11.

On page 10 of the above mentioned article, you will find that a Texas rat snake (het leucistic) was bred to an amelanistic black rat snake in 1980. Nine hatchlings were produced. Then in 1981, a Texas rat snake (het leucistic) was bred to a black rat (double het tyrosinase positive and tyrosinase negative albino) and also produced nine hatchlings. My point? The first leucistic Texas rat snakes (4) produced in captivity were hatched in 1981. Simultaneously the Leucistic gene was being crossed into black rats. Crossing leucistic Texas rats into black rats is not something new, nor is it something that has never been done. I know alot of you are relatively new to these forums, but there might be a few of you out there that remember all the black rat X Texas rat ads that used to run in the classifieds, circa 1998 or so. Now you never see those ads. Did all those crosses just implode?? LOL.

I think my stance on leucistic black rat snakes should be obvious. If not check the archives.

Later,
dg

I never said that there hasn't been any crossbreedings. Since leucistic Black Ratsnakes cost about 4 to 5 times as much as leucistic Texas Ratsnakes, the reason to do this is obvious and I perfectly understand why you are so sceptical about leucistic Black Ratsnakes.

The existence of Rusty Ratsnakes in nature is another matter entirely. You say that if a genetic trait inherits codominantly, than it should not be rare in nature. Talk about bull butter... Actually, if the phenotype gets selected against, the codominant modus of inheritance may stop it from ever getting common. In fact, a recessive trait would have a much better chance of getting abundant in a genepool since its heterozygous carriers have as much chances of survival as any normal snake. Also, there are many examples of recessive mutant traits which seem to be even more succesfull than the normal, dominant genes from which they were derived. Take for instance melanism in vipers from the northern parts of Europe.

I have read the Bechtel article, but I don't see how it contradicts with the Rusty Ratsnake theory. I keep both the leucistic lindheimeri and the leucistic obsoletus, and I do believe that these snakes are different. But off course, there must have been a lot of crossbreeding. The way I see it, your story does not contradict with mine which, by the way, I did not makeup myself but have been told by many other well known ratsnake experts.

>>>The existence of Rusty Ratsnakes in nature is another matter entirely. You say that if a genetic trait inherits codominantly, than it should not be rare in nature. Talk about bull butter...

Actually you should re-read my post. I merely posed a question, "If its a codominant trait then why is it rare in the wild?" I know very little about codominant traits as they apply to colubrid snakes. Do you have any literary references that you could point me to? (Please no links or citations to pigeon, horse, or minature donkey morphs as I'm not interested in those) I would love to read literary works on the subject of colubrid codominant genetics if you have any. However I have been in the reptile trade long enough to know there are plenty of bull[bleep]ters out there, so please no references to Joe Blow's Trunkslammer Reptile Barn or the like.

Actually, if the phenotype gets selected against, the codominant modus of inheritance may stop it from ever getting common. In fact, a recessive trait would have a much better chance of getting abundant in a genepool since its heterozygous carriers have as much chances of survival as any normal snake.

We are talking about rusty rat snakes here, a phenotype that would hardly be selected against in the wild. IMHO, rusty rats aren't that abnormally colored to the point that it would affect their survival in the wild (my opinion, I have no factual evidence to support this.)

BTW, can you provide references to any published info in regards to the origins of the rusty rat snake? I'd love to read more about them (LOL).

>>I have read the Bechtel article, but I don't see how it contradicts with the Rusty Ratsnake theory.

I was merely pointing out the fact that they have been crossed (black x texas) since the introduction of the leucistic animals to herpetoculture. Some people here may not be aware of the extensive crossing that has gone on over the years and may be fooled by some of these breeders that sell rusty rats and leucistic black rats as pure. Bottom line is people can believe what they want to believe. If they want to pay 4 or 5 times more for a pure (LOL) leucistic black rat snake then that is their right. Its their money after all. I personally will never buy, sell, or otherwise work with leucistic black rat snakes or rusty rat snakes based on my research on these morphs.

Dwight Good

I wish I knew of any publications regarding the origin of rusty / leucistic Black Ratsnakes, but like I said before I was only telling what I've been told by some other well known ratsnake breeders. I'm not really into name dropping, but it wasn't Joe Blow's Trunkslammer Reptile Barn (good one, haha).

Codominant genes propably are quite common in snakes, it's just that the mutant genes that we as reptile breeders focus on almost always turn out to be recessive. The codominant modus of inheritance of the rusty coloration is well know, another well known example of a codominant gene is the (heterozygous) 'Tiger' and the (homozygous) 'Super Tiger' Reticulate Python.

You know what? Let's just breed a leucistic Texas Ratsnake to a leucistic Black Ratsnake, and see what happens. By the way, should you ever come to Europe, can you take some of these excellent Brindle Black Ratsnakes with you?

Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

I wish I knew of any publications regarding the origin of rusty / leucistic Black Ratsnakes, but like I said before I was only telling what I've been told by some other well known ratsnake breeders. I'm not really into name dropping, but it wasn't Joe Blow's Trunkslammer Reptile Barn (good one, haha).

The reason I asked for published articles is because I have heard quite a few different stories as to the origins of the rusty rats, both online and at reptile shows across the United States. Chicago IL, St. Louis MO, Indianapolis IN, Evansville IN, Columbus OH, Cincinnati OH, Shelbyville KY, Oak Grove KY, Birmingham AL, Columbia SC, Raleigh NC, Orlando FL, Tampa FL, Daytona Beach FL, I've been to all of them many times in the past 10 years and talked to quite a few vendors. The stories vary from vendor to vendor. *shrug* doesn't really matter to me, my mind is already made up as to the 'purity' of leucistic black rat snakes. No sense beating a dead horse any longer.. lol (I think I've said this before but still beat the horse from time to time)

Codominant genes propably are quite common in snakes, it's just that the mutant genes that we as reptile breeders focus on almost always turn out to be recessive. The codominant modus of inheritance of the rusty coloration is well know, another well known example of a codominant gene is the (heterozygous) 'Tiger' and the (homozygous) 'Super Tiger' Reticulate Python.

Its funny when someone brings up codominant genes, the topic always turns to boas, pythons, pigeons, donkeys, etc. Can't recall many actual colubrid codominant discussions.

You know what? Let's just breed a leucistic Texas Ratsnake to a leucistic Black Ratsnake, and see what happens.

I don't think that would prove much, as all the offspring would be leucistic. Breed a normal black rat snake to a leucistic TX rat snake, raise up the F1 generation, and then breed them to each other. Wonder how many 'rusty' black rats will pop up? LOL.

By the way, should you ever come to Europe, can you take some of these excellent Brindle Black Ratsnakes with you?

Sorry but I seriously doubt I will ever come to Europe. Below is a picture of a nice brindle.

dg

Actually, a leucistic black rat snake was caught in Ohio about 10 years ago. I know the person who caught it and where he caught it. It is legitimate. As far as a "report" of this, where would you look to find one? Is there a "report" of the lucy western (and eastern) hognoses posted somewhere?

At the time the person who caught the snake made hets and eventually lucy black rats. There were selling for $600, far more that lucy Texas rats, which were $100 at the time. It beats the heck out of me as to how someone could tell the difference between a lucy black and Texas rat, although I agree with those who say black rats in general have a better disposition than Texas rats - but this is not good enough for purposes of making a positive ID.

It is also quite possible that people have taken lucy Texas rats and bred them to black rats, creating a leucistic Texas/black rat integrade, which further complicates matters.

Tim

First off, to the questions asked by the poster.

Black rats and Texas rats are pretty much the same in temperament. You have nasty black rats and you have docile ones, the same with texas rats. Just depends on the snakes personality. If you get one as a hatchling, it might be nippy, might not. If it is, steady handling will get it to calm down over time and be as docile as any corn. I have a few rat snakes and a few of them as hatchlings were nippy, but outgrew it.

As far as leucistic, if they are clean leucistics, they would be darn near impossible to tell apart.

Now for everyone else that posted here...
Have you guys ever compared black rat snakes from here in KY to the Texas rats??? Some of the black rats here in KY look just like Texas rat snakes!!! For comparison, here is a pic of my Bullitt county locale black rat snake....

Looks pretty close to some of the Texas rat snakes doesnt he. Gotta love the rats!!
Brian

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Yellow rat snake "Wolverine" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern Milk snake "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)
Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

There was a picture posted by Dwight Good on the 16th of this month of a Black Rat that could easily be mistaken for a Texan by its pattern. http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=687458,687459

As far as parselmouth's claim that their head shape is different, I have Blacks, Grays, Yellows, Gulf Hammocks, and Texans and their head shapes and scale counts are the same. Once again, they are subspecies of each other. As far as eye coloring goes, I have seen photos of Black Rats with Red colored eyes so I would not place all my stock in saying a leucistic obsoletus was from one subspecies by its eye coloring.

I would like to thank both Duffy and Billy Boy for their feedback. I read the old posts, but I am still not convinced that anyone has found a wild leucistic Black Rat yet. If such an animal was found 10 years ago in OH, it could have been an escaped pet. I spent a summer working in FL ten years ago and the apartment complex I was living in was crawling with Med. geckos. Where do you think they came from?

I will also point out that leucistic Blacks sell for more then Texas ones. Sounds like a good reason why someone might cheat. Some people are not always honest or keep good records. It my be that there are some "TRUE" leucistic Black Rats out there, but I still have not seen any published reports of one being found. There is a very good reason why they are not found very often in the wild. Because of their coloring, they quickly become lunch. Nature takes care of her mistakes,

>>There was a picture posted by Dwight Good on the 16th of this month of a Black Rat that could easily be mistaken for a Texan by its pattern. http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=687458,687459

I agree with everything in your post except for the tidbit above. I see no resemblance whatsoever to a Texas rat snake.

dg

They don't get much better than this in my opinion. Actually though, go with what you like and prefer. Get the snake that you are happy with and that's the best combination to have. If you like both, get one and start a wishlist. I don't think I've ever not had a wishlist.

Terry Parks

i have stated a while ago that i didnt believe that the leucy obsoletas were pure and i got shot down......

where were all you guys then.....

there IS a difference in face shape AND scale count in leucys both obsoletas and lindeheims......

rustys are also a COMMON occuring phase in parts of pennsylvania from what i hear.....

a friend of mine has bred a few "rustys" together and produced what looked like "texas" babies only in the "pure" white ones (which were given away due to the lack of "natural look" they had a pointy shaped face ....unlike that of an obsoleta.....

my point is that i really dont believe in a "pure" leucy obsoleta!

keith

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I'm not sure I want popular opinion on my side -- I've noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.