Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Actually I have several very small garters (T. ordinoides) but after searching the forums for info on thiaminase, I see that there's been a lot of discussion about it on this forum. So I thought I'd ask my question here.

Okay, my garters adore fishing for live minnows. I had stopped feeding them when I learned about the problems with thiaminase, but now I read that it's okay if you dust the minnows with a vitamin supplement. My question is: How The &@#^%! Do You Dust A Live Minnow????? I'm serious. I want to use minnows again. I put the minnows in their water and let them go fishing. But I sure cant' see that dust would stay on the minnows very long...

I only dust the back hald of the minnow. You don't have to put the one you dusted in the bowl. My waters/garters seem to realy go for the flopping fish on the bottom of the enclosure. They will eat it like that. I only dust every few feddings (3-6). I have been keeping waters for about 3 years now and had no problems with it like this. Only dust one of the feeder fish you give them. Unless the fish is realy realy small comparred to the snake. You could also start them on pinkies and feed one of those every few feedings since you like to watch them eat the minnows. You do not have to fully convert them to mice but they realy grow well like that. Do not go over board with dusting. To much can be as bad maybe worse than to little.
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Justin

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Using vitamin supplements does not have any effect on the thiaminase problem. The problem manifests as a vitamin B deficiency. This is not actually a lack of vitamin B but the inability of the snake to utilize it. Thiaminase is an enzyme found in some fish that prevents the snake from utilizing vitamin B. Adding vitamins to the diet does not change anything if the enzyme is still present. The only real solution is a varied diet or one that eliminates the wrong kinds of fish. Some people claim to never have a problem however and some even disagree that certain fish can even cause the problem. Your Northwestern Garters are supposedly worm and slug specialists but have eaten fish on occasion in captivity. If fed on a diet of worms they need calcium supplements.

Randy
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Firehouse Herps

My understanding is that thiaminase degrades Vitamin B into an unusable form. Wouldn't the presence of a Vitamin B supplement deplete some of the destructive enzyme, thus allowing any excess Vitamin B to be used? How else would thiaminase levels in the snake's tissues decrease?
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Pierson Hill

Herpetology and Herpetoculture

I am not sure what the effective life of the enzyme is once it is ingested but it appears to be metabolized within a short period of time. Animals that develop symptoms of vitamin B deficiency can be turned around with a change in diet, but not by supplements. I have about 35 Garter Snakes from about 13 varieties. I have never experienced this syndrome but I have read up on it. The only thing I am absolutely sure about is that no one is positive about what fish should definitely be avoided and it is still argued that the syndrome even exists. Most of my Garters are on mice but I have a few on gold fish and Rosys. I know of other keepers who use Rosys for young snakes without problems. There is a keeper in the UK who claims he has experienced the syndrome with his Garters but not since switching to a trout based diet. He makes his own frozen Garter Chow out of trout, gelatin, and some supplements. He makes it in a blender then lets it set in strips. He has posted the recipe and I might try it one day.

Randy
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Firehouse Herps

Enzymes by nature do not get used up, they recycle. This is such a non issue though, the only time this is a problem is when feeding dead fish. When the fish dies the enzyme from the gut destroys all the vitamin B in the fish. A snake fed nothing but dead gold fish will have a vitamin B deficiency as a result. When eating live fish the enzyme is quickly denatured and nutralized by the digestive process, no suppliment needed. Personally I have raised hundreds of snakes on a solely fish diet without any problems, as have many other people. Don't feed your snakes whole dead fish, unless they have been frozen alive, that also denatures the enzyme. The enzyme is in the gut of the fish, so the fish has to be dead long enough for the gut to break down before the rest of the fish is effected which why this is a non issue, personally if you are feeding your snake old dead fish, then a vitamin B deficiency is the least of your problems.

Does anyone have a list of fish that harbor the Thiaminase enzyme?