Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I've seen tons of posts on Mazuri diet. It seems like everyone agrees that it is beneficial. So I am planning trying it with me 2 sulcatas. Where do you get it and is there any special way to prepare it? how much is ok to feed? Thanks!

I guess you haven't read all the posts on this subject.

The feelings about using this stuff run the full range of emotions. There are those who say it will kill your pet for sure and there are those who say they can't live without it and there are those inbetween.

I've been using it for going on 5 years now and I find that it makes life very easy for me as far as providing proper nutrition. I really like the results of the development that I achieve. It can be overfed with certain species so you need to find a schedule that will work with your tortoise.

Feeding once or twice a week is what I recommend. Feed them as much as they will eat in one sitting and then take it away. Moisten it by placing it in a container and covering it with water just to the top of the biscut. Let it absorb that much water. On the off days feed dark leafy greens or grasses depending on if you have a browser or a grazer.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

you said on off days give greens. Are you saying it is best
to only give greens and Mazuri. I give other things on off
days like mixed vegetables, tomatoes and whatever else I am
cutting for my iguanas (peppers, lima beans, celery and lots
of other stuff). As I said before, any food is given in small
amounts.

Linda

Sorry... can't argue with this. I wouldn't feed the tomatoes or Lima beens but I couldn't give you a reason why considering that you are feeding small quantities.

I think you are on a better track than just feeding only greens.

In the wild they eat everything that is available but everything is not always available. Does that make sense?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I don't feel anything reasonable is a bad food if given
in the proper amounts. Variety is the spice of life!
I know I would get pretty bored if I had to eat the same
thing everyday.

Thanks alot!
Linda

No, not everyone agrees that Mazuri is good. MANY tortoise keepers consider it junk food and I am among these people. Many people are convinced that because it causes fast weight gain, that must mean it is good. Nothing could be further from the truth. Tortoises were not intended by nature to gain weight fast. They are a naturally slow-growing animal and health problems can occur if they gain weight too fast from eating artificial foods like Mazuri. They are herbivores, not grainivores. Mazuri is made from soy beans which turtles would never eat naturally.

I would urge you to do some research on it that is not funded by Mazuri.

I had posted questions below about weight gain with
Mazuri. With a shell length of 5" would you say that
550 grams is too heavy? As I stated in the post below
Peabody went from 425 grams to 550 within several months.
Maybe I should cut back to 2X a week and only give 2
at those feedings.

I like to get different opinions. It is very interesting
how some people swear by it and others don't recommend
it.

Thanks for posting
Linda

Linda,
Those that swear by it have used it or are using it. Those that don't swear by it don't use it or never have. That alone has to make you wonder. Also, those that don't use it have yet to offer on bit of evidence that it is harmful.

There are also those who are indifferent for whatever reason.

I'll go with the supposition that a heavy (not fat) tortoise is a healthy tortoise.

As far as growth rate goes, I've yet to see one significant study that demonstrates that rapid growth is unhealthy.

The bottom line is that many know that it is a good supplement because they have used it and they have some good looking animals to show for it.

By all means it is always a good idea to do your own research. I've spoken with quite a few zoo keepers who have fed Mazuri for many years and they still use it. That's where my decision started and then solidified after actually using it.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I've read the papers on the Mazuri website about their products.

Have you seen any research on the product done by other sources?
If so could you point me to it? I tried to Google for it the other day but all I got was the Mazuri website or caresheets.

Also, you stated you've seen no research that indicates high growth rates are bad. Could you point me to some research on growth rates in tortoises?

Thanks

I don't put a great deal of faith in the papers produced specifically by the manufacturer because they are trying to sell their product.

I've been in contact with the head nutritionist for Mazuri for a few years and he's answered a bunch of questions which helped me in my initial decision.

They've been trying to get some independent studies done but as of this date I don't know of any.

Growth rate studies focus alost entirely on wild populations of tortoises. Also, most of the growth rate studies are on turtles. The growth rate studies that are available on tortoises are pretty extensive in the whole Gopherus group. Those studies display a baseline rate for tortoises in the wild. These studies can be found in the California Desert Tortoise Council symposium proceedings which are available on line.
Desert Tortoise Council Proceedings

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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

adsfdsa

His growth seems a bit fast to me, but I am not one to really worry too much about exact weights and measurements of tortoises. Baby tortoises grow at rates that are surprisingly variable even if they are siblings the same exact age and fed and kept in exactly the same way. If you feed them correctly and give them plenty of room to move around, give them a good light source, make sure they get plenty of calcium, keep them hydrated, and get rid of any parasites and bacterial infections, the rest will take care of itself and they will grow at the pace they were meant to grow. If you do those things, you can put the scale away. If you do some research on the internet, you will find many people who claim fast growth from eating the wrong diet (like Mazuri) can cause all kinds of problems internally that may not show up for years. Things like weak skeletal structure, fatty liver disease, digestive problems, weak immune system, etc. I can't claim to have done any experiments myself to prove this, but it's just something to think about.

The thing to look for with tortoises is overall signs of health (or lack thereof,) which are indicated by activity level, clearness of respiration, appetite, and parasite symptoms. Tortoises are very specific in their needs, but if you fulfill their requirements, they are generally not hard to keep healthy. The hard part is usually when you first get them and they are not acclimated to captivity yet.

They do need sun or a VERY close approximation of it, a good diet consisting of a wide variety of vegetation with wild weeds and flowers being highly preferable to store-bought produce, plenty of room to move around, warmth and treatment for any parasites or bacteria which they may have picked up from other tortoises while being imported. The parasites and bacteria are very common in imported tortoises because of the deplorable conditions they are usually kept in. They are crowded together like sardines in a can.

Another important factor in my experience which many people just do not understand, is to let them have areas in their enclosure that are fairly cool, especially at night. It is a myth that tortoises need to be kept hot 24 hours a day. This will wear them down and is the cause of many problems that even good reptile vets have trouble diagnosing. You should always let them get to room temp at night if you keep them indoors. No heat is necessary unless your house gets to near freezing, and that is very doubtful. Even in Norhtern Africa where sulcatas are from, the nights in winter get down into the low 40s at least, sometimes cooler. They have no problem handling it and are adapted to do just that.

I have several species of tortoises, but the only ones I have inside are my new baby California desert tortoises from November to March because I don't want to hibernate them just yet. My Russians, adult CDTs, golden Greeks, "regular" Greeks and Hermann's I keep outside all year until I put them in the fridge to hibernate in the winter. The natural sunlight and natural weed diet are the main reasons my tortoises stay healthy.

If you can provide ANY evidence to support the claim that Mazuri can even be implicated in any of those problems, I'll become one of the strongest supporters of not using the stuff.

If you can do the same for excessive growth rate I'll do the same after you tell me what excessive rate is and how you came to the conclusion.

Here's a little side note for you. The shells of hatchlings become harder quicker and smoother when using Mazuri without any UVB. I guess it's gotta be real bad.

This is based on experience with a few species over a 5 year period and not the opinions of someone who has never used it over any length of time.

>>If you do some research on the internet, you will find many people who claim fast growth from eating the wrong diet (like Mazuri) can cause all kinds of problems internally that may not show up for years. Things like weak skeletal structure, fatty liver disease, digestive problems, weak immune system, etc. I can't claim to have done any experiments myself to prove this, but it's just something to think about.
>>

Why do I keep jumping into this topic? Well, I'm always on a quest for info. I'm actually trying to find something wrong with Mazuri diet. So far all the problems that I have found are minor and can be corrected by adjusting the frequency of feeding.

I don't know about you but I'd rather spend 5 minutes a day feeding my animals a more balanced diet than spending a few hour's a day collecting a sufficient variety of weeds that might come close to what my animals need for good healthy growth.

There's nothing wrong with a little, good disagreement but it might add a little weight if you can add just a little direct evidence to support your argument outside of 'he said/she said'.
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It looks like your reading comprehension skills are still at a third grade level, Ed. You really should look into improving that. What I actually said was that one can find many sites on the internet written by tortoise keepers and researchers who believe that pelleted foods are bad for tortoises because they are not natural for an animal that eats the diet tortoises do, and have too much proten and/or cause too rapid of growth. I clearly stated I have done no experiments of my own. Those sites provide varying degrees of evidence for this position. I simply told another person about that fact. Why are you so threatened by differing opinions? What proof have you ever shown that Mazuri cannot possibly be harmful? I haven't seen you show a bit of proof except your own biased opinion and research conducted by, of course, Mazuri themselves. Remember when the cigarette companies kept insisting their product didn't cause any health problems at all not so long ago and they had the "studies" to prove it? Using Mazuri for 5 years without too many problems (you even admitted to some problems) means exactly NOTHING with a slow-growing animal like a tortoise. It often takes many years for problems to show up with improper feeding.

The idea that Mazuri is a "balanced diet" for a vegetarian grazer is pure hogwash.

The main reason you give for liking Mazuri so much is that it is easier that feeding them a real diet of natural foods. If you want nothing more than to make it easier on yourself, then fine, go ahead. You have that right. But that does not mean that everyone must agree with you. Do you really believe that because you are too lazy or busy to feed the proper diet to an animal it will magically change it's dietary needs to suit your laziness?

Many tortoise people do not think manufactured chemical foods are good for tortoises from the experiences they have had, and that is their right also, isn't it? If Mazuri is so great, then please tell me why you have to limit the amount you feed and why it causes problems if you don't.

We all know the real reason you are so gonzo about Mazuri, so spare us the BS, will ya? You rarely mention the controversy about Mazuri when you try to shove it down people's throats, so don't give me any crap about showing the other side of the coin.

I talked about it before on this board. The same thing happened with pelleted foods for rabbits, cattle, iguanas and birds and many other animals. I have raised birds for 30 years and can tell you that processed pelleted foods were all the rage in the 80s and part of the 90s. They were touted as being the "perfect" food for birds with just the right nutrients. Just like the Mazuri folks tell us about their product now. But then all kinds of problems started to show up in the birds, with liver disease being the most common. Many birds died. Their digestive systems were not made to digest the soy and other ingredients found in the pellets. Problems occur in other animals on man-made food also. If you want to think that tortoises are magically different than all other animals then go ahead, but stop getting threatened when someone challenges that assertion.

And here I thought you had stablized enough for some good friendly debate.

I'm not threatened by a difference of opinion. I obviously welcome it.

You continue to spout your BS and I'll spout my BS and everyone else can choose to read or not. Interesting concept, huh?
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As long as you remember to take your sedatives like the doctor told you to, all will be okay.

>>As long as you remember to take your sedatives like the doctor told you to, all will be okay.
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...can't believe it also contains temper tantrum agents among primates whenever they're near that stuffs...perhaps it's time to call in the FDA before someone get hurt...