Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Now I realize that designer morphs take years and years to come to fruition but doesn't it seem like pied crosses should be out by now... For the thousands of pastels and pieds out there (pete's got a few hundred himself it seems that one person would have taken the extra time to combine the genetics and prove it out.

Obviously, co dom combos come first like bumble bees, pastel mojave, etc... but what about the albino spider? Are recessive-spider crosses first simply because of the veracity of the spider line? Even if they were, it seems like we are years late producing pastel pieds. Or any pied combo for that matter. Is something else going on here...?

I've been in this forum for years and have never seen this question raised. Is that for a reason?

Thanks for any input,
Ron

I've wondered the same thing many times. Be interesting to find out.

Eric

We should be seeing some Co-dom pied combos this summer, the double homo recessive mutations are much harder to produce but will pop up in the next few years.

Pieds by themselves are awsome, mix any other mutation in there and you are only improving an already great looking snake.

As for incompatibility, everyone and their little brother is voicing their opinion BUT very few have facts to back up any claims.

Ralph Davis is one of the very few that shares his progress with the pied combo projects and he has hatched normals from a small clutch of Double-Het Lavander/Pieds, that could/should rule out any incompatibility issues but we will not know for certain until the double-homo is produced.

It would be nice if the BIG boys lurking in here would voice their opinion!!!

Brian A.

np

A double homozygous ball python takes a LONG time to make. I think speculation that pieds are incompatible with other mutations is premature at this point in the game. I tend to think that we will run into compatibility issues at some point in time......but it isn't the reason for the absence of the double homozygous designer morphs now. The reason why they have not been created......time. Actually, it takes longer to prove something imcompatible than it does to produce a designer morph.
I produced hypo pastels last year. I started the project from scratch - I aquired the animals to start that project as far back as 1999. Five years later I produced the animals I envisioned way back when. Looking back I think things went well and the project happened surprisingly "fast" (in ball python terms). If I had to start the project over again, I would bet that it would take longer than five years - like I said, I feel lucky that things went so well the first time through.
Double homozygous morphs involving simple recessive mutations take a long time to create (longer than the five years it took me to create my designer morph). You have to acquire the founding stock, raise them to breeding size (not an easy task), produce your double hets, raise those to breeding size (not an easy task), and then breed the double hets to each other to get the 1 in 16 double homozygous mutation (not great odds considering ball pythons have such small clutches).
Mixing a recessive gene with a co dom gene will be a faster way (at least on paper) to produce a designer morph.
I think we will see some new morphs this season involving the piebald gene including pastel pieds and maybe spider pieds.
It takes time.....
Joe Compel Reptiles

Thats pretty much what I've heard from fellow breeders on the subject. I definitely know all the odds for double homozygous success. But brining in co doms into the mix shortens the period dramatically.

Patience, and a genuine passion for the animals are the two defining traits neededs to succeed in this business. It just seems that the piebald (1997) bloodline seems a little less vigorous in combining with the other morphs that have been around for almost the last half decade. I think if they are compatible we should definitely be seeing them this summer. I can't wait... pastel piebald is probably going to be one of my favorite morphs.

Ron

WELL SAID, JOE ...And with ball pythons time is NOT one your side. It take at least 2-3 years to raise a female HET pied or pied, even the best of feeders go off from time to time. Thanks I hope to see pieds soon, cannot wait until this season.
-----
1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

GOOD point, Where are pastel pieds? Maybe we will see some this season...I hope... I will be going for a pastel pied myself...Thanks David

-----
1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's

Havent seen of them yet eather.

Anyone seen one care to shed some light on the albino pastel? I always imagined that it would just look like a regular albino... maybe the yellow doesn't fade as much when it gets older??

Eric

Some of the morphs appear quick for me but it is because I put everything into them and got lucky!!! There are some projects that I am sooo frustrated on and seem to fail and get no where!!! I was working on some of this stuff when no one really cared!! It took me three tries to get the albino spiders!!!

Kev@NERD
-----
www.newenglandreptile.com
The Most Extensive Collection of Ball Python Mutations in Captivity

np

Thanks for that Kevin. It's encouraging to me when I here some of the "big name" breeders express the fact that not everything is easy for them either. I've dealt with my own frustrations in this game and seen others go through theirs so it's nice to see that us "little folks" aren't the only ones.

Not trying to be sarcastic at all and I'm not happy about the frustrations of others (quite the opposite in fact).
-----
Sometimes, things are exactly as they appear...sometimes.

The question came up about breeding a Lemon pastel male to a Graziani pastel female or something like that. I think the guy wanted to know if he would get just Regular pastels or would he get Lemon Pastels also, he knew he would get 25% supers,50% pastels,25% normals....but he was wondering, what the PASTELS would be(half graziani and half Lemon). Have you ever bred the different types of pastels to your lemon pastels? Thanks DAVID
-----
1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's