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I'm setting up another enclosure and was trying to decide on a substrate..I used tile in my other one but wanted something different this time. I found something called VITA-SAND, an "all natural vitamin fortified calcium carbonate substrate". It's an ultra fine grade, and these are the ingredients: calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, iron oxide, beta carotene, vit. C, vit. B12, biotin, vit. B6, niacin, riboflavin, vit. B1, and folic acid. All sounds good to me, and it's got no "sand" in it. Anyone use this? Or have any comments? Thanks

>>I'm setting up another enclosure and was trying to decide on a substrate..I used tile in my other one but wanted something different this time. I found something called VITA-SAND, an "all natural vitamin fortified calcium carbonate substrate". It's an ultra fine grade, and these are the ingredients: calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, iron oxide, beta carotene, vit. C, vit. B12, biotin, vit. B6, niacin, riboflavin, vit. B1, and folic acid. All sounds good to me, and it's got no "sand" in it. Anyone use this? Or have any comments? Thanks

In my opinion (and I'm NOT looking to start yet another substrate war), you should avoid all sand and calcium-like substrates for babies and juvies, and only use on adults that you KNOW are getting proper supplementation. I don't use it at all (I guess I've always likes better safe than sorry). You should check out tile... it looks great, conducts heat nicely, and is really easy to clean.
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Brian Skibinski
Brian@MilwaukeeReptiles.com
www.MilwaukeeReptiles.com
Leopard Gecko Care Sheet

Yeah, it certainly is a debate eh? I'm planning on putting 2 adult females in this one. I used paper towel before and found it really stressed her out (having to be in there all the time changing it). I have tile in one, but really like the look of the Vita-Sand. My question I guess is in regards to the ingredients, I'd really like to know why, or how, or if, or whatever, this product (the ingredients) causes impaction, are they not digestible? It is made of calcium, vits and minerals. Are they not able to digest these ingredients?
Thanks!

Well in my limited experience I have had mine on a calci-sand ever since Ive had him. He was on it at the reptile store. He is a juvenile and I havent seen any issue with him at all. He's content as can be and eats and poops without issue. From what Ive heard so long as they're being fed properly the sand injestion isnt an issue.I know mine gets some when he's eating his crix and no problems at all and the enclosure looks good ;D

Thats my 2 cents at least.

Seriously though, are you soooo lazy that you can't even put down paper towels and put calcium supplements on their food? Or do you just like risking your geckos life because you'd rather just put it on sand that will soon end your leos life than just spending 5 dollars every 3 months on supplements? WHEN it dies of impaction (not IF) i dont recommend buying another one so you can just kill it, i'm guessing you won't learn from your mistakes since there is a post further down that basically said their friend's leo just died from calcium sand. Just answer this question, what made you buy a gecko in the first place? To enjoy it? Or see how long it takes to kill it with sand that has been proven to clump together when wet. Just curious.

You really need to learn some better social skills! IF a leo gets impacted it is because the owner didn't provide everything the leo needed NOT because it was on sand. ONE MORE TIME FOR THOSE IN THE "SPECIAL" GROUP: IMPACTION IS A SYMPTOM!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Lol! Couldnt take you seriously man, saying i'm in the "special group" when you cant even spell a simple word like SYMTOM, and i dont want to hear it was a "typo" because the P isn't even close to any letter in symtom, but any ways. It can be a symtom of poor care for the gecko but also if it gets a couple large mouthfuls of sand while eating crickets or whatever the food is, it is sooner or later going to clump up and impact the gecko. If it is taken care of properly a little bit of sand can pass here and there but not large amounts.

You might want to do a little research on this forum before you get in over your head...I can't stand when 13 year olds find this forum and think they can talk about things they know nothing about! BTW...I know how to spell, having 2 college degrees helps...but when I have much to say in reference to morons who have just joined the forum and insist on giving advice without knowledge OR experience, sometimes I just type quickly! Like I said do your research son and you'll see many posts where I stated facts about the substrate issue (and just for you, everything is spelled properly). You might also want to check some of your spelling...as well as your facts!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

First off, just because i joined this forum does not mean i am a beginner like you are. You sound like an idiot trying to tell me that i don't have any expierence or knowledge about sand. Even if the gecko(s) are taken as best as they can a very large amount of sand will STILL impact it. It will pass little amounts with proper care but not a very large amount of sand.

Check my website kid, I have MANY years of experience. I didn't get my information from a petstore guy who used to be my science teacher like you did. Congrats at alientaing and pissing off many people on the forum with your "advice" and "knowledge". I would recommend getting some more experience for yourself other than just regurgitating information from others.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Get a dictionary or something. SYMPTOM was what I put in my post not symtom...
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Lol i didnt get any of my information through a science teacher. You keep on saying that I have no knowledge and expierence yet you can't prove to me that large amounts of sand can be passed through a leoard gecko. You seem to me like a 13 year old kid making a website so you can "prove" that you know something a leopard gecko.

Oh yeah bye the way, you said many yaers of expierence, im sorry kid but 2 years isn't enough to determine i have no knowledge of geckos. I suppose you should go back to the learning table and stop trying to give out advice you heard from past threads of this forum without any expierence to back it up.

I am 35 and have over 10+ years experience. Why does AOL allow kids like you access to their service? If I were 13 I would be spelling "simple words" like symptom the same way you do or words like sepArate as "seperate" (just like you!) Please do more research on me before you make yourself look any more foolish. And tell me where did I ever say large amounts of anything (including sand) wouldn't cause impaction. Large amounts of anything including food can cause impaction. But leos won't eat sand unless there is some need not being met! You also need to work on those reading comprehension skills in addition to your weak spelling, research, and social skills.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

lol, "OOOO theres a cricket" ~BAM~ "darn i missed but got some sand in me belly now", "k lets try again" ~BAM~ "ooo i got a cricket with a little more sand" and you feed them 12 crickets every other day and they miss a lot, so it adds up.

Try a food dish sparky!

Rule #1) Keep a dish of calcium and a dish of fresh water available at all times!

Rule #3) Keep temps correct, make sure you have a good gradient with plenty of places to hide.

And maybe one day; you too, can have fat & healthy leopard geckos that don't get impacted.
And yeah, those are all mine...I have a lot more of these too.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Lol my leos never got impacted before. Mine even look healthier than yours. Yup they put yours to shame.

talk is cheap...post you pics!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Well currently i don't have any fantastic pictures uploaded. Currently i have one of my normals shedding. Here it is.

Also about the food dish and you calling me sparky part. I really think you should direct your attention to the post above where i said, "are you really that lazy". Thats a perfect point, the kid says, "i know he eats some sand while eating his crix". Or something very close to that, check it out. Any how lets see one of your pictures.

Here you go...just a few I have on this disk.

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www.hullabalooherps.com

some more for ya.

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www.hullabalooherps.com

This disk holds a lot of pics!

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www.hullabalooherps.com

These are just the leos. I have 13 disks full of digital pics of my collection. Great proof in case of theft!

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www.hullabalooherps.com

coo leos. where did you get those racks at?

I built them. If you want instructions, I have posted pics and step by step instructions at a different website.
www.freewebs.com/herptips/
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www.hullabalooherps.com

Pine is harmful to most herps including leos so why use did you use it?

Are you referring to the litter dams? They is sealed and painted. Most cages built from plywood are also pine...sealed and/or painted.
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www.hullabalooherps.com

I'm hoping your comments are not directed at me! I was simply asking a question in regards to the ingredients, and if any one else has used it either successfully or not. I am certainly not lazy, and put alot of time, not to mention money, into my reptiles. I found that removing papertowel as often as I needed to really stressed my one female, thus the tile I put in. I use calcium, as well as any other supplements I need to. I have since read up on calcium carbonate and have learned how dangerous it can POTENTIALLY be, therefore, I will be using tile once again, if not playground sand. I asked about the ingredients in particular because most posts regarding this topic are basically "I use it" or "I don't". My question is not directed at those that feel so strongly against it but yet know nothing about it. I don't live in a city where there is a herp vet so I'm learning as much as I can and trying to avoid any unnecessary problems. There appears to be alot of experienced and educated ppl in here that can teach me a thing or two, so I ask.

Don't worry, no one is yelling at you. If there is one thing that is guarenteed to get a fight started once and awhile its talking about sand. It happens in the beardie forum too, it just happens to be one of those topics people feel very strongly about, in both directions.
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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican kingsnake
1.0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.0 BTS
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats

I wasnt talking about you. From what i hear you take good care of your leos.

So, who was that outburst directed at?

I have told and told her about the sand and she said that the leo is doing just fine. She said that he is getting bigger and looks healthy. He may look that way right now but who knows what will happen later. She didn't seem like she was going to be bothered with emptying out the tank to put paper towels in. I will feel bad for her son when and if something happens to his gecko.

Wow..I'm suddenly remembering why I left this website last year! I didn't ask about your friend that won't listen, and I didn't ask for some big argument on the topic (or on anyone's age, or spelling abilities). It's obvious who really cares for their pets and who doesn't, that's not what my question was, I was wanting some info. on the ingredients and opinions from those with some experience. What confuses me, after looking at so many pics, is that some have such a strong opinion on the topic but keep their little guys and girls in the crappiest setup, sand or no sand. I merely asked a question, and thank you to those who have responded to the question. I have decided not to use it, after learning about calcium carbonate.
You've got some beautiful little fatties there hill4803
Thanks guys..and sorry for bringing up this topic once again.

I don't know if your question was ever answered. The biggest problem with the calcium carbonate is that it acts as a buffer on the stomach acid. Sort of like giving your gecko a bunch of tums, which makes it difficult to properly digest food. The leos will normally not eat the vita sand or any other substrate as long as it has all of its needs met. Provide a dish of calcium at all times. Having said that...if someone can not properly care for a pet it doesn't really matter what substrate you use, there will be problems. People only seem to notice a problem (like impaction) because it is more easy to notice...they never consider the lack of proper care as the true cause for their pet's demise. Like bleeding to death when you get shot...the official cause of death will be bleeding out (due to a gunshot wound). You don't bleed to death for no reason and leos don't get impacted for no reason!
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www.hullabalooherps.com

I messed up and thought I sent a new message. Since it did touch a nerve and these responses are what made you leave the forum a year ago, then I say see again you next year.

I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to this..but anyways.."these" responses are not what made me leave..it was some people's childishness (and no, I'm not referring to you, whoever who are). Where the hell did that guys lazy comments come from? THAT is the type of crap I was referring to. Last time I used this forum, people couldn't even post a simple question or comment, or even picture for that matter, without some child being rude or just a flat out a**hole. I do hope it has improved, because like I said before, there are alot of intelligent people on here who can, and are happy to help., hopefully you are one of them. So I'm not sure if you're just trying to be funny, or win brownie points with the others who enjoy being rude, but if you have no information on my original question, why bother posting on this thread?

Welcome back. I was gone for two years, same reason. There was only fighting, and all I wanted to do was talk about geckos. It IS better now. But not perfect We all have a little a**hole in us sometimes, the more mature ones of us try not to let it out.

Well that's definitely good to know, because I did find alot of help in this site, for all my reptiles. And I guess I'd be lying if I said the a**hole in all of us didn't at times provide some ha ha..what else can you but laugh at it

Yeah i was being kinda of an A hole but it really made me mad when the kid said he has little expierence, hes seen the geckos eating some of the sand, and he doesn't even use a food dish, which means the geckos WILL be eating a lot of sand while eating their pray items and soon be impacted; that is where why i called him lazy because he doesn't even supply a food dish or even a dish of calcium. There was just a post farther down saying somebodies friend's gecko just died of impaction.

>Yeah i was being kinda of an A hole but it really made me mad...

Yeah, but when you yell at them, they don't hear your message, they just get mad back. As the Queen of A*holes, I have to remind myself of this daily

I wasn't yelling at him i was informing him of his mistakes. Oh yeah he wasn't really being lazy... just irresponsible.

Well, I would like to know who you were directing that lazy comment at. Im just trying to make sure it wasnt at me, as I was one of the few it could've been directed at.

Pretty much i was talking to you, and also the other people that keep their herps like that (dont take this like a personal attack please because it really isn't, i was only trying to explain to you that how they are being kept is irresponsibly, for example: you use no food dish...)

Well, it appears it was an attack against me then. I'd like to know how I am "lazy" though. And when you tell me how to keep crickets in a food dish that are alive, I would gladly do it.

And irresponsible wasnt the word. It was lazy

Yes but i realize now the best word for it was irresponsible. Any how have you done a simple thing like "pinching" the legs off. Not taring them because that tears off their sides and guts start coming out and everything.

If you guys are gonna have a long drawn-out fight, would you mind starting a new thread? This thread has gotten all pushed up over on the right side of my screen giving my browser fits. I wouldnt want to miss anything. Thanks!!!!

"Show new topics only" will allow you to only have on your screen new posts. Also, all new stuff is at the top, not midway down, so if it affects you that much, dont scroll down

This is like, post number 4 for me on this part of the thread. Im just trying to find out why I was being blasted earlier.

Oh, you were being blasted because that's just the kind of guy LeoGeo is. Rise above, move on, end this thread.

I figured as much given the mixed responses and lack of memory on previous posts. Consider it done, was looking for a reason as to why he'd blow up. Thanks for getting the job done.

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Wow for the eight-hunderedth time...... YOUR AN IRRESPONSIBLE HERP OWNER NOW STOP ASKING THIS QUESTION MULTIPLE TIMES, IT ONLY SHOWS HOW IMMATURE YOU ARE... jeesh, grow up then come back to these forums.

You said it yourself in a post higher up, that the Trex calcium sand was dangerous and had many reports of impaction. Well so you don't have to waste your time looking on the bag for the ingrediants i'll just tell you that what YOUR using is the SAME stuff as the Trex stuff, just a different brand name. Looks like we got a hypocrite on our hands folks.

No thats not the kind of guy i am... If he would just be responsible (i dont know why he got a herp if he wasnt....) and not keep his animals on calcium sand (the worst possible kind of sand) and just get a food dish (like every other responsible herp owner would do) i wouldn't had to have said anything about this. So i guess im the kind of guy that cares about other peoples herps and sorry, but the truth hurts some times.

Because you keep your herps irresponsibly... You asked this four times and you have gotten your answer all those times... Why ask again?

Well if you really want an answer on how safe the stuff is look down the threads and theres one about this persons friend having a leo and its on sand, well any how so you don't have to look the leo is impacted is from the sounds of it, it is going to take a miracle for it live. So... does this help you with your answer (the answer is dont use it).

I'm not going to add to the sand/no-sand debate, but rather, address the issue of using the calcium sand substrate. First of all, have you ever done any background research into these kind of products? Vita-Sand is just another calcium sand, not really any different than the other ones out there, if you do some research, you'll figure that out. Now, do you know what happens to calcium carbonate if it gets wet? It clumps into very solid masses, and when futher combined with other mineral and vitamins, it can cause some serious issues. Given proper husbandry, regular sand can pass through the system with little to no problems, calcium carbonate based sands aren't that easy because of the clumping tendency, thus significantly increasing your chances of impactions, as proper hydration to the gecko will only further solidify the clump. In addition, some of these sands have even been discovered not to dissolve in hydrochloric acid, the compound that breaks down food in the digestive system. Just about every year, some company tries coming out with a different version of the calcium sands; I am still hoping to find one that actually does what it says it does. But, until then, in my opinion, if you like the look of sand, I would go with regular playsand, and make sure you dust your feeders. Good Luck!

I had no idea about the calcium carbonate! Thank you. That's scary actually..and even scarier that companies sell such products that can be so harmful. I think I'll stick to the tile! But if I do decide to go with the playground sand, where can I buy it? And is it clean and disinfected and such?
Thanks again

Should you decide to try the playground sand, you can get it virtually anywhere, especially during the summer. As mentioned somewhere along here, go for a fine grade, and something that says "play sand", or something to that effect; avoid anything that says "sandblasting sand" or "silica sand", these are only going to give you problems. As an extra precaution, I always bake or microwave my sand for a little bit to ensure that anything harmful is removed. Good Luck!

hello...

i've kept a beautiful high yellow leo on vita-sand for a little over a year.. she's real healthy, real fat org. tail.. got her from a hamburg show.. have not had any problem with vita-sand, i keep calcium in a flat dish.. gutload the crickets and use calcium cricket drink (yellow stuff) i also dust every other feeding with repti-vite(some times she won't take the dusted crickets.. most times she will.. self regulation??) sooo i def. am trying as hard as i can to follow the guidelines(thermostat to control heating elements, times for easy 12hr light cycles ) and i never see anything in her poo, and she is very alert and loves to be handled (like i hear horror stories about sand passing through) , she licks the calcium in the dish at night.. i guess i'm lucky (in some of your opinions?) but anyway vita sand seems to work for me, but i usually go for natural look a little more versus. totally exam room safe, still winning .. sigh, anyway (keep my corns on reptibark vs. papertowel) (let my dog play outside )

just my 02'
-badcow

You can get sand at any home depot type store. Get the finest grain sand they have and make sure it is screened and washed. It is very cheap, only about $3 for a 50lb bag. Can't go wrong with that price! One of my adult leos is kept on washed screened playsand and he hasnt had any problems, i dont use any calcium based substrates for the reasons listed above. Plus, why pay the outrageous prices they want for calcium based sand and risk hurting your lizard, when you can buy playsand for SO much cheaper and have less chance of impaction.

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0.1 Bearded dragon
0.1 mexican kingsnake
1.0.2 Leopard Gecko's
0.0.1 Rose Hair Tarantula
1.0 BTS
0.0.1 Reverse Okeetee Corn
0.1 Bullmastiff
4.1 Cats