Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a pic of my two new ratsnakes or cornsnakes. At first these were thought to be pure Emoryi, but they look nothing like any Emoryi I have seen. They have a cream ground color, different head pattern and brown blotches. Their belly pattern is not solid white as expected with such light coloration. It is actually speckled much like a cornsnake.
Let me know what you guys think about them. I know I posted pics of these once, but I am not convinced to what they are.
Thanks all,
John Lassiter

>>This is a pic of my two new ratsnakes or cornsnakes. At first these were thought to be pure Emoryi, but they look nothing like any Emoryi I have seen. They have a cream ground color, different head pattern and brown blotches. Their belly pattern is not solid white as expected with such light coloration. It is actually speckled much like a cornsnake.
>>Let me know what you guys think about them. I know I posted pics of these once, but I am not convinced to what they are.
>>Thanks all,
>>John Lassiter
>>

John, I have seen both, supposedly, emoryi and slowinskii that look like that. The problem is, I think, that you're in an area where the three subspecies are close to coming together. Also, if those are young snakes 03 or 04, they could still have their juvenile colors, which means they may be lighter than typical adults. It would be nice if we knew exactly where they came from, which county anyway.

Our understanding of the taxonomy of TX guttatus is evolving slowly over the past few yrs, but is getting there eventually (I wish Vaughan, et al, would make their next publication). At first many thought there was no area of intergradation bt. emoryi and slowinskii (corn), and they could be treated as separate species, but today it's starting to look like there's a wide area of intergradation, at least bt. meahllmorum and slowinskii. There's also a very wide area of intergradation bt. meahllmorum and emoryi.

I've never seen slowinskii in person, and only a few photos. I know there's some folks working with w/c specimens, like Chris Harrison, and I hope he logs onto this thread. But I think your snakes, John, look a lot like juvenile slowinskii, maybe with some meahllmorum influence. Maybe they came from the zone bt. Corpus Christi and Port Lavaca, where little is known, and where you thought you saw intergrades there. Chances of us seeing specimens posted from that area are probably pretty thin, but it might help shed some light on the subject. Wish I could post pics of my own, but all I have is couple that others have posted.

PS: You could try moving this thread to the taxonomy forum and seeing if anyone would help there. Keep us posted....

PPS: Could you post that pic of the belly pattern again?

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, Great Plains ratsnakes and corns

My educated guess from what i can see in the picture is that they are either Elaphe g. emoryi or Elaphe o. lindheimeri from what i can see of the head i would have to say they are the latter
Link

I don't know that I can add anything significant to this conversation other than to say that they don't look particularly strange to me. They are darker brown than most emoryi/meahllmorum I have seen in the wild (but I have only seen them in Texas and Mexico). They don't look unlike slowinski, although they are pretty light brown for a snake that size. I caught a few down on the Texas coast (Aransas county) that looked somewhat like that.

It would be interesting to see a gallery of locality guttata pics, just to see if there are real identifiable trends in morphology.
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Chris Harrison

Actually, here's an idea.

Since the color morphs, locality and genetics subforum is dead (as most of the subfora are destined to become), why not start posting locality guttata there so we can see the range of variation? It isn't likely that the post will get buried!
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Chris Harrison

>>Actually, here's an idea.
>>
>>Since the color morphs, locality and genetics subforum is dead (as most of the subfora are destined to become), why not start posting locality guttata there so we can see the range of variation? It isn't likely that the post will get buried!
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>>Chris Harrison

Chris, that's a good idea. I keep a folder for all the different locality pics I come across, but they're pics other people took and I really hesitate to put any on the forums.

Thanks for the post. Are you working with slowinskii still?

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

>>Are you working with slowinskii still?

Actually, I moved out of their range and only had a pair of CB yearlings when I left. A few days ago, I had a stupid feeding accident and one of them killed the other, so now I have 0.1 slowinskii (at least the female was the survivor?). I will probably get rid of her.
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Chris Harrison

I hatched out five Texas rats, that look just like that, from a wild caught female. Mine are already starting to get the orange highlights on the sides. I will post pics as soon as I can

DANIEL JARVIS

Daniel, are you talking about obsoletus or guttatus? Thanks for posting and looking forward to your pics.

Terry