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I will talk about it after I hear some comments....thanks Tom Stevens

I would guess eastern chain king....or hell, maybe a california king, I'm no good at identifying kings lol.
Mike
Michael's Place

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Ive about given up on guessing but here goes lol. Looks like some kinda cross ??? Or maybe not. Looks to have some Eastern in it as well as maybe something Blotched King ? Or who the hell knows what. Ask Rainer he claims to be able to identify crosses and hybrids so he can maybe rule out a cross for you.

Keith
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... a snake that I saw labeled as a "peninsula king" that was found near Tampa.

Otherwise, it looks like an eastern king.

I did well at a show selling snakes and another vendor I met did not, and I have one of Rainers Eastern X Brooksi so I bought the snake pictured for 10 bucks. It was ugly as can be. If anything as a baby it had so little color and pattern it looked like a Nigra. I love all Kings and wanted a mate for Rainers snake so I grabbed it. Now the few other babies I saw that year and also this year that came from the same parents were much different. Anyone would've guessed Blotched, because they had a typical blotch-type pattern. Mine is now over a year old and I am thrilled with how its turning out. I love the pattern on the neck. Some of its sides are very chain like. It was sold to me as Goini, and it very well may be. I am going to dig up the email addy for the guy I got it from and ask him for more pics and info of the adults. Any which way it is a very cool snake too have, especially for 10 bucks! Tom Stevens

I wont be suprised with any info you find. With all the crossing you just never know. On the flipside with all the back breeding i.e. breeding sibs to each other or back to parents strange pattern anomolies can pop up. A classic case is Kevin Enge's GA Easterns and the pair Will Still got directly from Kevin Enge.

Here is the F1 sibling adult pair of Will's produced by Enge

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Here are 2 males from the pair above (different clutches). Both produced by Will Still. Most are normally patterned but a few come out like my male and even fewer come out looking like Will's extreme wide banded animal.

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When I asked Enge about the pattern anomolies he noted that he had never back bred his own animals. He always used the wild pair (Tift Co. and a Echols Co., Georgia). He did that year though and popped out a this male. This was the result of the Echols Co wild male to one of his daughters.

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So back breeding can bring out some odd patterns and maybe thats the case with your snake ??? Its nice looking though and very different looking.

Keith
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That Extreme Wide Chained king pic is killin me. I think that may be one of the coolest Eastern pics I have ever seen. I would even guess Goini if I saw it posted with no name on it. I wonder how often that happens? Also makes me wonder what 2 snakes like that from the same clutch bred to each other would produce....??? great pic Tom Stevens

That Extreme Wide Chained king pic is killin me. I think that may be one of the coolest Eastern pics I have ever seen.

I totally agree Tom!

I picked up some of those GA easterns that Will has from Kevin 10 years ago. At that time i bought one female and the next year he held a male for me. When I went to the show to pick it up it looked more goini. I was concerned and he confessed he had bred the 1/2 goini 1/2 eastern back into eastern kings making them 1/4 apalachicolas. He told me to breed the 50/50 back into an eastern and I would get the same thing. Kinda like it was no big deal to him.

He called these Bumblebee Kings and told interested buyers they were from S. Ga. But really they were % apalachicola X eastern.

So I would guess when breeding these back to one another you will get the anomalities you pictured.

Now it is possible Kevin had another "pure" line that looked the same as the crossed ones. At that time the easterns were not as popular (you couldn't hardly give them away)so he was trying to create interest(marketing) the easterns he was producing.

Hmmm Ive talked to Kevin extensively about Easterns etc...and he has mentioned outcrossing Eastern into Apalachicola's way back when but the animals Will got in 1998 or 1999 from Kevin are from the Echol's and Tift Co animals. Ive seen the Bumblebee's and they dont really look like Wills pair at all. Do you agree ? Also to think that with the way Wills male looks It would mean that the look of Apalachicola's works like a recessive mutation and we know that not to be true. At least I havent seen any het for Goini Easterns available. Here is another pic of Will's pair from Kevin.

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1 and 2 are the wild parents Echols and Tift Co. respectively.
3 is the F1 pair from 1 and 2
4 5 are offspring and sibs to pair 3. 6 is from 1 bred to his daughter.

p.s. Are those Hypo Brooksi X Eastern Kingsnake crosses involving that female you picked up from Kevin 10 years ago ? You mentioned she was a Bumblebee King right ? Did you by chance mention to anyone that those Kings also have Goini in them ? Or was she not one of those Enge Crosses ?

One more pic of Kevin's Tift Co., female.

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Kevin called the N. Georgia locales Bumblebees. I think he may have crossed them and then sorta hid his obvious 50/50% from the public and crossed them back to the easterns. That is how those spectacular snakes may have originated. It was something Kevin was working with for a long time..so I don't know ??

The female I got from Kevin (he says) is a pure locale but then the following year I asked him for a male and he gave me the 50% aplachicola and said it was the same thing. When i questioned it he conceded.

It would make the nice orange bands. It made me think the Ga locales he had are all outcrossed. Maybe a low percentage but still outcrossed/

If you look at those nice wide red/orange rings on Wills line and the pics you posted it sure raises some questions, at least in my mind. It always has. And I have more than just doubt. I have proof he did sell the Ga locales and the crossed locales as Bumblebees on his table. I know because I asked and purchased them. this was about 9 yrs ago. I followed up the next few years and always checked with him on that line while at Daytona.

My female does look identical to the adult pair breeding in the pic you posted. When I crossed the hypo into the eastern it was Kevins female eastern that I used.

I put an email into Kevin so we will see what he says.

Keith
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In 1998 Kevin Enge looked me in the face and told me that the easterns I was purchasing from him at the national Expo were from southern GA animals captured well outside the range of goini. He showed me the adult pair of easterns that sired my original pair, neither of these monster easterns showed any sign of goini influence. They were very big, typical southern eastern kingsnakes, bold creme-yellow chains on a brown background.

To imply that my easterns are the product of a cross between goini and a GA eastern, because Kevin had created such a cross in the past, is total BS! By virtue of your statement you are effectively calling Kevin a liar, because he has stated to me and Keith, and numerous others that these snakes are in fact pure easterns, he even gives the counties (Echols & Tift) where the founders of this line were collected.

Why is it that some folks can't accept the fact that easterns can be extremely variable snakes. Selective breeding has proven this to be true for most captive snakes, why easterns would be different is beyond me. So few people have done any long term, multi-generational work with these animals that it is no wonder that we haven't seen many variations up to this point. We all know that many, many populations of eastern kings start off with red pigment in the chains. Why is it so difficult to fathom that this color and wider chain width can be selected for. We are finally paying these snakes the attention they deserve and guess what, the variations are starting to show up, like they have in every other captive cultured snake. But no, all of the work that I and others have done is doubted by you now because the kings are showing up with more red pigment and wider chains. It's what I have been selecting for a few generations, why shouldn't it happen.

The fact that Kevin crossed an eastern and a goini is irrelevant. Many people have, I'm personally not crazy about it, but hey to each his own. However, you are implying that he has misrepresented the GA easterns that he has sold me and others because he allegedly crossed one of his snakes to a goini in the past and bred it into his pure GA animals, thereby contaminating this line of kings for good. That is totally irresponsible and out of line. I hope Kevin himself chimes in on this discussion.

Will

Will

In 1998 Kevin Enge looked me in the face and told me that the easterns I was purchasing from him at the national Expo were from southern GA animals captured well outside the range of goini.

Kevin did the same with me. Every year i went back to his table the identical animals were displayed and sold as such.

To imply that my easterns are the product of a cross between goini and a GA eastern, because Kevin had created such a cross in the past, is total BS! By virtue of your statement you are effectively calling Kevin a liar, because he has stated to me and Keith, and numerous others that these snakes are in fact pure easterns, he even gives the counties (Echols & Tift) where the founders of this line were collected.

I doubt Kevin will remember every snake he sold to every person. I however DO remember the history of the snakes I purchased.

Why is it that some folks can't accept the fact that easterns can be extremely variable snakes. Selective breeding has proven this to be true for most captive snakes, why easterns would be different is beyond me. So few people have done any long term, multi-generational work with these animals that it is no wonder that we haven't seen many variations up to this point. We all know that many, many populations of eastern kings start off with red pigment in the chains. Why is it so difficult to fathom that this color and wider chain width can be selected for. We are finally paying these snakes the attention they deserve and guess what, the variations are starting to show up, like they have in every other captive cultured snake. But no, all of the work that I and others have done is doubted by you now because the kings are showing up with more red pigment and wider chains. It's what I have been selecting for a few generations, why shouldn't it happen.

agreed

The fact that Kevin crossed an eastern and a goini is irrelevant. Many people have, I'm personally not crazy about it, but hey to each his own. However, you are implying that he has misrepresented the GA easterns that he has sold me and others because he allegedly crossed one of his snakes to a goini in the past and bred it into his pure GA animals, thereby contaminating this line of kings for good. That is totally irresponsible and out of line. I hope Kevin himself chimes in on this discussion.

I am not implying he contaminated his kings for good. I am just stating facts. I don't think it was out of line any more than others posting their doubts about my lines and others lines that post here on this forum. As Keith and others here have repeatedly stated when someone does any cross doubt is cast. Basically I have come to accept this forum as a place for all of us to learn and share information and not get our feathers ruffled when someone posts doubt.

Will, I am sorry you feel you are affected by this. But I do know and remember quite well what was said to me and sold to me.
If those same locale snakes are being sold to others as pure locale and Kevin sold some that were crossed with the same name then something has taken place that I cannot speak for.

After I asked him about the male he held for me being a cross Kevin basically told me "same difference" "it will still produce the red bands". Meaning (to me)its basically the same snake as I got the previous year. AT THAT TIME it did not make that much of a difference to me because locality Eastern founder stock is usually divided into counties anyway and I doubt the snakes read maps. Things have changed since then and now people are commanding a higher price for easterns. Back then they were not that popular.

It may very well be that the first female I got from kevin was a locale animal and the following year for whatever reason a male mate was sold to me that was a cross between an Eastern and a Aplachicola. He also told me "the offspring would produce nice clean banding offspring that would look better than the female I got from him the first year". I figured he was not that into locale and took the male he offered anyway. I never bred them but I did start seeing his easterns posted here with nice red banding. Some like your pic of a breeding pair was identical to my female. Others from his line posted here have been vastly improved. You do the math.

Definitely more Eastern looking. I don't see where you would assume it might be a "goini". The bands although aberant are not very wide and it doesn't look like it has any interband lightening at all. How old is the snake?

It is about 18 months old. If you read my post I said that the others in the clutch[that I got to see] were blotched. This girl was almost patternless. The color slowly but surely came in and thickened into what pattern she has now. It was labeled as Goini from the guy I got it from. If more of the babies I saw from the same parents resembled this one I would lean more towards an Eastern[ I have never seen a patternless Eastern hatchling though], I saw babies from the parents that produced mine in 03 and 04 and most others were much moreso blotched. I needed a female and with my luck the ugliest one was the only female that time. I am happy with the snake now, I like the way it looks. I am breeding it too a man made cross anyways so labeling its offspring won't be an issue.... Tom Stevens

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