Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday I warmed up several of my (very depleted) non feeding '04 neonates. I was very pleasantly surprised that all of them took live pinks the first day. For me it seems to work like a charm. I use this method rather than pinky pumps or other means of force feeding. The neonates have a feeding and growth spurt that sometimes surpasses those I have kept up feeding all winter.

Has anyone else tried this and what successes have you had?

yes, I have tried it, it was a last ditch effort several years ago on a small group that wouldn't eat. instead of watching them waste away ( they refused every trick I could think of ) or euthanizing them, I tried brumating them. I wasn't sure that they were even going to survive that but they did. After 6 or 8 weeks I warmed them back up, and started over, offering the smallest f/t pinks I could find. It worked that time and has worked twice since then.
-very tough to put a non feeder into brumation when all you want to do is stuff it full of food. Apparently they know what they need more than we do.
-dave

I have brumated non feeders many time over the years and been successful. I think part of my success is PATIENCE as I don't hold off until the snakes are to thin. I think the biggest mistake here is putting a snake down that has refused food and keeping them warm while their reserves get eaten up.

I have so many snakes I don't stress over non feeders but rather put them down early. Gone are the days of trying to feed mouse tails and pinky pumps. If it does not work the first time down they go.

You know I had one Brooksi this year who just showed no interest in food. I do not force feed either and I make sure they always have water and watch their bodyweight. This little snake held its own for months, it only began eating a few weeks ago. What is odd is that after it finally ate, it thinned down super fast. I then had to feed it about 10 tiny pinkies in a week to 10 days to get it to look normal. This happens with Corns once in a while too. Who knows why, but some just seem to prefer to wait a long while before feeding and then suddenly turn on. In my limited experience I think that either cooling them or just letting them take their time is better than force feeding. I know many who have saved snakes by force feeding but I wonder how many of those snakes would've pulled through in due time without any intervention? I also know a few breeders who seem to think cooling hatchlings makes for more ravenous feeders come spring time. They even cool their feeding hatchlings their first winter. Tom Stevens

Can't wait for hatching to begin, got lots of stuff to add, you've got lots of stuff i want.

~ZF

I incubate my montane king eggs at about 73-75 so they take a full 90 days to hatch (late Aug-Sept). I have found that my babies are also much bigger and heavier than babies incubated at higher temps. I believe this is what happens in the wild also. Any baby that does not feed within a month of hatching gets put straight into hibernation at 40F. I don't believe in gradual temp reductions or increases, studies have also shown that snakes are much more likely to develope respitory infections when temps are gradually reduced. I bring them out in four months and they show no sign of any weight loss. They also begin feeding right away. I firmly believe a baby snake has no metabolism until the first meal goes into it's stomach. Then the metabolism kicks in(I think this is what Nokturnal Tom was seeing with his snake) Babies that do feed get cut off from food in November and are placed into hibernation with the adults on Dec 1st. I feed nothing during the winter. I found this method works well with rattlesnakes and other species as well. Nowdays for the most part, all my force feeding syringes/ needles are used only for meds or to feed starving snakes that people bring to me.

You mentioned that when you used lower incubation temps that the hatchlings were bigger. Have you tried that with any other snakes ? Do the hatchlings that hatch out bigger get larger overall than say hatchlings that were incubated at normal temps ? Thanks !

Keith
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Hey Keith,

I have also tried it with Green Rats and Sinaloan Milks with no success. There was no difference in size, only a longer incubation period. I don't think it was meant to be for those species. It only seems to work so far with montane kings (pyros, mexicana complex, ruthveni and alterna). It doesn't make for larger adults in the long haul. The babies are just larger and heavier at hatching which I think is a plus on both counts, those that do feed right away are big enough to down pinks with ease, those that don't start feeding right away have more stores for winter. I think it is the way it was meant to be. I started doing the lower temps on the theory that nobody ever finds pyro eggs because they are layed underground were summer temps are usally a constant 72-73F. (the average prefered body temp of foraging pyros has also been found to be 73F) I also noticed over time that the hatching time for my babies and the size of my baby pyros were the same as hatchling pyros I was finding in the field. On the other hand, pyros hatched by my friends at 85F were smaller(often MUCH smaller)than the new babies I was seeing in the field.

For common kings I think I would stick with the tried and true temps. If you were going to put non feeders down for the winter I would make sure not to do any force feedings prior as that would kick in the metabolism and start burning needed calories.

Rich

The only thing I might advise on is the feeding first day out of brumation. I've found that if I feed mine too fast or too much at first, it could kill them, as they might not be able to digest fast enough.

This is a link to a story I posted recently on the Ratsnake Forum. I kind of screwed up the handling of two baby ratsnakes, putting them down way later, but one survived anyway, and is doing very well. I don't like to force feed, but I did discover a new way to tempt babies to eat on their own. If they still don't eat....brumate them.

TC

Surviving baby story