Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am curious if there have been breeding tests to determine how Jungle and Harlequin relate to each other.
I imagine that it would be very difficult to determine the outcomes of such trials, given their outward similarity, and inheritance.
I suppose this has been investigated already, but I can find no information about it. They seem similar to me, if not synonymous, but I am not making that assertion, I am asking for evidence of the "truth" as perceived by the community at large.
Thank you for your input.
I am in no way questioning the validity of either strain as it relates to the other, just curious as to what the relationship between the two is understood to be.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

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--aka DMOG68

>>I am curious if there have been breeding tests to determine how Jungle and Harlequin relate to each other.
>>I imagine that it would be very difficult to determine the outcomes of such trials, given their outward similarity, and inheritance.
>>I suppose this has been investigated already, but I can find no information about it. They seem similar to me, if not synonymous, but I am not making that assertion, I am asking for evidence of the "truth" as perceived by the community at large.
>>Thank you for your input.
>> I am in no way questioning the validity of either strain as it relates to the other, just curious as to what the relationship between the two is understood to be.
>>-----
>>Jeremy J. Anderson
>>snakepimp.com
>>gemstatereptiles.com
>>Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
>>Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!
>>

The breeding proof!Every time the word jungle is mentioned,an all out battle breaks loose!I am not saying that the jungle isnt an amazing boa with the most awsome pattern phases out their,But everytime some one asks the possibility of a certain animal being one just to better educate themselves,its heck to the end till the post gets deleted!Lets not look at the fact of weather this is or not!Lets take thea look at the animals that have been proven out as co-dominent genes!Have they been bread back to a jungle??????Who knows??I feel that this is question that has alot of weight an needs answering!Where's the pic's ?????We don't wanna here the stripe is different or the color is different cause the color has crap to do with the gene,it is a aberrrant gene!An some of the jungles abberrancies are so amazing an yet so different that how can one argue that the stripe is different their all different!AN NO I AM NOT SAYING I OWN A JUNGLE!But I guarentee that if she throws aberrant babies that after the final year of proving her genetics out,that I buy a male jungle an breed it back to her to see what happens!An everyone lets have a civil discussion for once an not a flame war that gets deleted!Cause these questions deserve answers!All in all the co-dominent striped boa's out their that have been proven out are still amzing animals!But have they been bread back to a jungle? Thanks Eric
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E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

I share your curiosity about the relationship of Jungles and Harlequins.. I also wonder if the "stripe" gene isn't also related in some way. There definitely seems to be some similarity with these traits... in my opinion.

Patrick

1. Harlequin x Harlequin does not make distinct super-forms. (to my knowledge). It is also my understanding that the trait passes dominantly (ie all harlequins are "supers". That would seemingly suggest a strong polygenic trait but I do not know enough about the trait to label it so. Theres defenitly some weird stuff going on with the harlequin gene(s).

2. Harlequins consistantly have extreme reduced black, do jungles?

3. Harlequins throw a wide range of pattern abberancies ... Jungles are fairly uniform in that regard.

Is it proven that overall skin pigmentation cannot be tied to a pattern abberancy? Not to my knowledge. Think arabesque (major color morph). Are the color traits in Arabesque and Jungle polygenic? They certainly were not selectively bred for color (in which the best way is to reduced melanin to reveal color to selectively breed towards it ... arabesques have an increase in melanin).

>>1. Harlequin x Harlequin does not make distinct super-forms. (to my knowledge). It is also my understanding that the trait passes dominantly (ie all harlequins are "supers". That would seemingly suggest a strong polygenic trait but I do not know enough about the trait to label it so. Theres defenitly some weird stuff going on with the harlequin gene(s).
>>
>>2. Harlequins consistantly have extreme reduced black, do jungles?
>>
>>3. Harlequins throw a wide range of pattern abberancies ... Jungles are fairly uniform in that regard.
>>
>>Is it proven that overall skin pigmentation cannot be tied to a pattern abberancy? Not to my knowledge. Think arabesque (major color morph). Are the color traits in Arabesque and Jungle polygenic? They certainly were not selectively bred for color (in which the best way is to reduced melanin to reveal color to selectively breed towards it ... arabesques have an increase in melanin).
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E&C's Exotic House of Reptiles

Excellent response, and I think you raise some interesting points. I still do not know whether anyone has done breeding trials between these strains. That is my primary interest.
I think the most significant point you make is about the reduction in black, I may have been understimating that effect.
The Harlequin line is possibly polygenic, or at least pleiotropic, but part of my question is: is it possible that harlequins are something similar to super jungles? I remember what we used to call jungles were actually super jungles, and the "hets" were actually visual-het-jungles.
Again, I am not trying to denigrate, or present suspicion. I am just interested in what breeding tests have been done, if any, and what the outcomes appeared to be. I am interested in results.
Thanks again for your insight.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

Purely speculative based on my own observations.

First reason being because of how different the genes are. One being defenitly codominant the other being defenitly not. Second is because of the multiple sporadic traits that harlequin throws while jungles tend to throw the same thing, just in different degrees. Third is the consistant and EXTREME melanin reduction. Fourth is the amazing color tied to harlequins.

Here are a few pics of my Harlequin Female. Produced by Gray over at allboas.com. She has blocky saddles (from harlequin gene or mom? .. dunno), two saddles are connected. She has a good bit of melanin reduction in her saddles and her whole undertone is very unique and light. Her color is just nuts...

She is 4 months old in these pictures from October.

This is her Mom: A normal colombian owned by Gray Rushin. (Picture taken from his website, more of her here: http://www.allboas.com/listing.php?id=24)

This is her Dad: A harlequin boa that Gray used to own and has since traded. (Picture taken from his website, more of him here: http://www.allboas.com/listing.php?id=110)

Here are a few pictures taken from www.harlequinboa.com :

Extreme black wash out:

Reduced Pattern, Can a jungle do that?

Salmon Harlequin subadult male

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

a brother to the pic above
Salmon Harlequin - born May 2003

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

Well I am not very up to date on the genetics of the Harlequin morphs, what I do know is that the High Pink color and reduced black color in my High Pink Hypos are with out a doubt related to my co-dom striped gene, I just have not figured out why LOL. I am not really sure if there is a difference in the Jungles vs the Striped vs the other patteren abnormalities out there. I know I have proven my Striped line to be able to produce super striped boas and the High Pink Color has proven to be co-dom as well as the original striped. But I am not sure if the many different Jungle Boa lines show the same traits and I thought that the Harlequin line was in color only, I did not realize that it also refered to pattern?
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

I have mostly just been curious about the harlequins, and I thought they most closely resembled jungle, though they had bee most often compared to pastels.
I think that topnotchboas has convinced me that they're different, but imagine what a cross with jungle could throw! Yowza!
I did not realize that harlequin was truly DOMINANT!
So if I breed a harle' to my dark-as-anything-you-ever-saw normal female I produce 100% harlequins?
Startling. That sounds like fun.
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Jeremy J. Anderson
snakepimp.com
gemstatereptiles.com
Of course it's my opinion, I said it, didn't I?
Breeding season is always just around the corner....JOY!!!

here she is, almost at her lightest and cleanest...

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

here she is, same snake, with a little color

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I would not say that the Harlequins have as strong as an influence on pattern abnormalities as Jungles *for the most part* (based on my own experiences) .

What I mean by this, is if you breed a Jungle to a common, the litter should contain half Jungles, right? Lets say a litter of 20 and 10 are Jungles. I would say 7 or 8 of those Jungles may have minor aberrancies, such as striped tails, but some aberrancy to speak for. Maybe the other 2 would be more aberrant and/or fully striped.

With a Harlequin litter, as mentioned before, breeding a Harley to a common will give you a full litter of Harlequins, and although there may not be as high as a percentage or ratio of pattern aberrant animals vs. non aberrant, there will be a few extremes.. such as full-blown Jungle-looking animals, and full stripers, besides 'commons' that look totally hypo, and high colored, clean animals.

I know Brendan Magee bred an F1 or F2 Harley to a Hypo, and in this outcrossed, F1 litter were 2 or 3 animals that looked like the most full-blown Jungle's you could ever see.

Considering all the traits they possess and produce, i'm shocked at how undervalued they are, and how they are not selling out.

When you consider what a really common (non extreme/non aberrant) Harlequin goes for, and that it can produce so much more (like others), I think it's a no brainer.. a great move.

Please take a look at some pics of some of my Harley's and Salmon Harley's posted in the Gallery!

Thanks, take care - Joe

(My group of Harley's were not aberrant, but here is a pic of the more aberrant of my group)

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin