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I love this snake and by far its my favorite my buddy Will owns. I just thought in light of Rainers bringing up these I would put up a few photographs of this incredibly beautiful animal that Will has taken. Will has aptly named him "Frank The Tank" as he is a non stop rodent wrecker.

If you have some of Will's animals post a pic and lets see em !
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Yearling Photo

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2004 female

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2003 male

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Yeah that's definitely one of the neatest looking Easterns I've ever seen Keith. I can never get tired of looking at those pics! How big is your monster GA Eastern now?

>>Yeah that's definitely one of the neatest looking Easterns I've ever seen Keith. I can never get tired of looking at those pics! How big is your monster GA Eastern now?
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Check that I had him at hair over 44" at the end of December and now he is 45.57". Thats a 24" ruler in the pic.

Keith

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that animal is so obviously under the influence of goini genes it’s not funny! Anyone thinking it’s simply a manifestation of eastern variability is in denial! If you purity guys NEED to feel it’s a "pure" eastern go ahead but you’re only BS’ing yourselves. For the love of God can’t you guys read a map?

Whether Kevin deliberately bred animals from “ADJACENT” counties or the influence is simply the result of gene flow, WHO REALLY CARES?!?! The animal represents the genetic potential of a relatively small geographic area and is, in a word, stunning but it ain't "pure" eastern in any sence of the word! Purity shmurity!

Look at the Kings from Darien and Mcintosh Co. on the east coast of S GA they look almost Floridana like. Fact is Kevin says these are from his Echols and Tift Co animals and I believe him. I actually think that they look more like those Mosaics from Edisto Co., SC than they do Goini anyway. Here is a side by side of a F1 Edisto juvenile along with Wills male.
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that both strains originate from the same guy? I'm not going to engage you with meaningless banter but I never took you for being so gulible.

Ahh but they dont. Heyward Clamp of the Edisto Island Serpentarium is the originator of the Mosaics not Kevin Enge. Mosaics were also owned by John Cherry at one time and he didnt get them from Kevin. Also Im not gullible I just trust Kevin. I thought it was you who once said to truly know what stock you have get them from people you trust or collect them yourself.

Keith
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I never should have taken the bait on the Edistow animals because they are outside of the topic but since I have give me a break! Every pic of a mosaic on your site is from Kevin save one from AC which looks nothing, let me rephrase that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING like the Enge animals. If you want to convice me there isn't a relationship Keith, show me some pics of the original HC animals.

And yes I only sell animals as locality if I or a very close associate/friend captured the founder stock. That was a hard learned leason but it isn't the point either. You're sending out smoke screens. The question simply remains, are the S. GA animals "pure" eastern? Given geography alone the answer is at best not very likely.

Don't get me wrong, my opinion is that Kevin did nothing out of line breeding animals from quote "adjacent" unquote populations. This is especially true given the fluid meaning of "locality". In any case I'm on record as not buying into the concept that political boundaries define biological populations.

What I continue find incredible however is the obvious NEED to believe the animals in question are not influenced by goini is so strong that the alternative will not even be considered. I for one am not gulible enoughto buy into that.

Don't you find it funny how we accept that easterns are influencing goini populations but we are supposed to believe that, in this case, gene flow is a one way deal?

Very well said Tony.
Gene sharing is a two way street.
Thanks,
John Lassiter

I never should have taken the bait on the Edistow animals because they are outside of the topic but since I have give me a break! Every pic of a mosaic on your site is from Kevin save one from AC which looks nothing, let me rephrase that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING like the Enge animals. If you want to convice me there isn't a relationship Keith, show me some pics of the original HC animals.

Okay here they are. This is the original wildcaught pair from Heyward Clamp of the Edisto Serpentarium (www.edistoislandserpentarium.com). Now I guess you can keep on drawing conclusions that Kevin is untrustworthy but I find him honest and his reputation is very very solid. Do you know Kevin ?

And yes I only sell animals as locality if I or a very close associate/friend captured the founder stock. That was a hard learned leason but it isn't the point either. You're sending out smoke screens.

I dont have the luxury of trusting someone like you are able to enjoy ?

The question simply remains, are the S. GA animals "pure" eastern? Given geography alone the answer is at best not very likely.

Different issue I never said that wasnt the case about Goini genetics heading north. I even pointed out that Floridana does as well on the eastern coast of S. Georgia. Im starting to think you arent reading my posts fully lol. My point is this and Ill repeat it again. Rainer said he believes Kevin crossed Goini into his Easterns and has been selling them as Easterns for the last 13 years. Kevin denies this and I believe him. I have shown that animals from areas nowhere near the Apalachicola National Forest can have the same look. Remember Carl Bartlett's odd looking OBKs that popped up in his collection ? They had a Goini look to them but I trust Carl in that they are a legit. Did you question them? Now do the Eastern that Will produces look like that because of some natural Goini influence ? Maybe, probably I just dont know but it seems feasible with Echols Co. bordering Florida and Tift right above the Panhandle. Again my contention is that these are from a Echols Co and a Tift Co breeding. I mean fact one Kevin does have Echols and Tift Co animals and he does breed them together. Tony here is a baby Eastern from a gravid wild collected female from Berkeley Co., SC. This snake is owned by Paul Moody (note not Kevin Enge)

Don't you find it funny how we accept that easterns are influencing goini populations but we are supposed to believe that, in this case, gene flow is a one way deal?

Again who is argueing against this ? Will and I simply said the animals in question arent from introducing a Goini into the mix unnaturally. Naturally occuring genetic flow who knows Ive covered this above. One would think after seeing a snake like mine and Wills that Goini influence is there but thats a far cry from accusing someone of breeding it into their animals for 13 years. So I dont disagree with you on the gene flow thing, is my point clear on that ?

Here is a pic of Carl Bartlett's strange and beautiful OB Kings. Have you spoken to Carl lately by the way ?

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Rainer said he believes Kevin crossed Goini into his Easterns and has been selling them as Easterns for the last 13 years. Kevin denies this and I believe him.

I never said Kevin has been selling easterns x goini for 13 years. Where do you get that from?
What I said was he sold me a Female s georgia locale eastern 9 yrs ago. Then the following year he sold me a crossed eastern X goini male which he said was basically the same thing as the female I bought previously. Then two years ago I almost bought a crossed county animal (which he mentions in his email to you) but it was not the goini eastern male from 8 yrs ago. Like I said before, I don't expect Kevin to remember every sale he ever made.

One would think after seeing a snake like mine and Wills that Goini influence is there but thats a far cry from accusing someone of breeding it into their animals for 13 years

Again where do you get this number 13 from? Is that how long Kevin told you he has been breeding snakes? I also never said "Kevin was selling crossed easterns for 13 years". YOU SAID THAT!
What I did was share my experience with Kevin. If that doubt casted in your mind as to his entire career/life of him breeding goini into all of his easterns then you said it. I didn't. Just don't say I accused him of it.K

Nobody is denying that the easterns from south GA have that goini/floridana influence, or, I should say, that regioal influence, because who really knows who spilt it first (I don't anyway). I refer to them as S. GA easterns in order to identify them as a a unique form of eastern, special because of the regional influences that make them just a bit different from other populations. I believe this influence is natural, not because of some intentional cb marketing ploy, or carelessness of a breeder. Keith said it better though.

Will

Keith: Okay here they are. This is the original wildcaught pair from Heyward Clamp of the Edisto Serpentarium (www.edistoislandserpentarium.com). Now I guess you can keep on drawing conclusions that Kevin is untrustworthy but I find him honest and his reputation is very very solid. Do you know Kevin ?

I would be eating crow however the question begs, how well do you know Howard Clemp? It kind of comes back to that credibility thing. Do you know that the validity of the Stillwater hypo bull snake hinges on the supposed fact that the guy providing the locality data had no market motive to lie. The flip side of that logic is that those with a market incentive might! The other side of this is that with sub exotic snakes escaping and being released in “droves” (your words by the way) who knows what the original mosaics are! To me there is obvious goini influence and your own arguments work against you. Get a genetic test will ya? And, yes I know Kevin and I too find him honest. I’ve never questioned that. I’m just trying to be objective as to what the animals are. I took this stance long before Rainers post.

Keith: I dont have the luxury of trusting someone like you are able to enjoy ?

Yes you do but I think you are missing my point. I’m not conferring locality status unless I hold the founder stock and that stock has to have been personally captured by me or a very close associate. Exactly where do you live in relation to Kevin? You are going on a personal judgement call of another’s character and looking at animal’s generations removed from the wild. I am going on close proximity and continued face to face personal contact and seeing the animal soon after capture. Not the same thing.

Keith: Rainer said he believes Kevin crossed Goini into his Easterns and has been selling them as Easterns for the last 13 years.

If I’m not reading your posts through then you are reading things that aren’t there. Rainer didn’t say that in but the most literal interpretations of what was written. His point is that you guys are acting as if the line is a “pure” eastern when Kevin admitted that crosses where essentially the same.

As for not saying the animal was under goini influence the dominant thought among you big getula gurus is totally implicit that they are not! Take a recent quote from Will, “Why is it that some folks can't accept the fact that easterns can be extremely variable snakes. ……….. Why is it so difficult to fathom that this color and wider chain width can be selected for?”

My answer to Will is that it isn’t difficult to fathom. We’re just saying that in this case, what is happening is that the goini phenotype is being selected for from an integrade population. You can do it because it’s there, because there is no such thing as a “pure” eastern king. Classic phenotypes that breed true yes but pure no. The very term is a bugaboo. What you guys have is no different than sub-specific crosses and the distinction you are attempting to create is mere product differentiation. It’s marketing 101 not biology.

I would be eating crow however the question begs, how well do you know Howard Clemp? It kind of comes back to that credibility thing. Do you know that the validity of the Stillwater hypo bull snake hinges on the supposed fact that the guy providing the locality data had no market motive to lie. The flip side of that logic is that those with a market incentive might!

Have you seen Heyward Clamp selling Mosaics at the Expo ? He is a guy in 70 or 80's thats been running a Serpentarium for years and years. Ive seen him on TV etc... but no that doesnt make him credible but I plan on flying to SC tonight to administer a polygraph test. Maybe Ill just beat him into submission and if he gives me the right answers we can all call him credible right ? Give me a break Tony your farting in the wind here.

The other side of this is that with sub exotic snakes escaping and being released in “droves” (your words by the way) who knows what the original mosaics are! To me there is obvious goini influence and your own arguments work against you.

What ??? Im only argueung that Kevin didnt use a Goini in the animals Will and I own. Kevin said he didnt use one but used the 2 locales of GA animals I mentioned. So for you to say Kevin did use a Goini when he said he didnt where is your proof ? Where you there? Did he call ya ?

And, yes I know Kevin and I too find him honest. I’ve never questioned that.

Except here you did lol. This is from your previous post.

Every pic of a mosaic on your site is from Kevin save one from AC which looks nothing, let me rephrase that ABSOLUTLY NOTHING like the Enge animals. If you want to convice me there isn't a relationship Keith, show me some pics of the original HC animals

Well to me it sounds like you are questioning his honesty. Kevin claims those animals are from Edisto island or offspring thereof. You are trying to say they may have a hand in his GA Easterns or is the other way around ?

I’m just trying to be objective as to what the animals are. I took this stance long before Rainers post.

Objective ??? You better look up the word Tony because you are being anything but objective.

Yes you do but I think you are missing my point. I’m not conferring locality status unless I hold the founder stock and that stock has to have been personally captured by me or a very close associate. Exactly where do you live in relation to Kevin? You are going on a personal judgement call of another’s character and looking at animal’s generations removed from the wild. I am going on close proximity and continued face to face personal contact and seeing the animal soon after capture. Not the same thing.

Well I guess we all have our standards Tony. With logic like that Im glad people dont apply the same "Trust Policy" to you as I bet you dont always get to make "face to Face" contact with all your customers. If everybody had such high standards nobody would buy hardly any of anybodys animals. I mean how does say a guy in California who wants to buy one of yout Hypo Temporalis for well... a considerable amount of money, truly knows that its a Hypo Temporalis? He wasnt there when your friend captured the first Hypo to see "YOU" look the collector/friend in his face and know he was being honest right ? I guess this potential California buyer would just have to trust you on lesser standards than you expect from others.

>>Keith: Rainer said he believes Kevin crossed Goini into his Easterns and has been selling them as Easterns for the last 13 years.
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>>If I’m not reading your posts through then you are reading things that aren’t there. Rainer didn’t say that in but the most literal interpretations of what was written. His point is that you guys are acting as if the line is a “pure” eastern when Kevin admitted that crosses where essentially the same.

Again WHAT ??? Where did Will or I mention the word "pure" ??? The only person who has is you. You are creating arguements that arent there ?

As for not saying the animal was under goini influence the dominant thought among you big getula gurus is totally implicit that they are not! Take a recent quote from Will, “Why is it that some folks can't accept the fact that easterns can be extremely variable snakes. ……….. Why is it so difficult to fathom that this color and wider chain width can be selected for?”

Well Tony I offered two stances on this and I illustrated it with a pic. One is yeah they can have Goini in them naturally. I never denied or implied that these Easterns are "PURE" 100% just that they werent "tainted" unnaturally! We just had this purity discussion and I even said if there were such a pure animal it would be from an area that was farthest away from other subs like a NJ animal. My stance on this is clear but not to you I guess. Will stated that back breeding can bring up recessive traits etc.. and thats true i.e. the OB Kings that Carl produced can attest to that or that pic I showed you of a F1 Sc animal with wide orange bands. I guess Paul Moody falls into the catagory of "Tony's untrusted collectors" so his snake is irrelevant.

my answer to Will is that it isn’t difficult to fathom. We’re just saying that in this case, what is happening is that the goini phenotype is being selected for from an integrade population. You can do it because it’s there, because there is no such thing as a “pure” eastern king. Classic phenotypes that breed true yes but pure no. The very term is a bugaboo. What you guys have is no different than sub-specific crosses and the distinction you are attempting to create is mere product differentiation. It’s marketing 101 not biology.

Ouch! Tony your objectivity is killin' me here. Wow you posses a power to look at a snake and know that its no different than say a Eastern crossed with a Goini. With powers like that you should lower your "Trust Policy" as you dont need it. Look for something to happen naturally is one thing but for it to happen artifically is another. This is the BIG difference we are talking about. To you it might not be a big deal but to me and to Will and to tons of others it matters. So when Rainer and yourself raise unsubstantiated doubt about Kevin's snakes then its a big deal. Also Tony its funny how at the end of your post you make it sound like owww its natural who cares how they came about they are the same thing . If you felt this way what did I say to provoke comment from you ? Was I pounding my chest saying LOOK WORLD AT MY PURE EASTERN KINDSNAKE ! ???? Oh well like I emailed you this week I need not take it personally and I won't
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If you go back to my original post on this thread all I said was goini influence was obvious, (well maybe a little more) but you took it from there.

And yes every argument used to say that wc Rainer's king/gopher likely isn't natural or wild bred can be turned on your assumption that the edisto or S GA animals are pure.

As for my powers, here they consist of recognising an intermediate and being able to read a map. Spin it how you like.

I will conceed this, the question about both kings looking alike and originating from the same guy (an incorrect assumption) did come across as questioning Kevin's integrity and that was not my intent. My apologies to Kevin.

And yes every argument used to say that wc Rainer's king/gopher likely isn't natural or wild bred can be turned on your assumption that the edisto or S GA animals are pure.

I never said that wasnt a viable arguement it is of course, only you went another route and hinted that Kevin had manufactured this look via Goini just like you and Rainer hinted he did with his Easterns. This borders on libel by the way.

I will conceed this, the question about both kings looking alike and originating from the same guy (an incorrect assumption) did come across as questioning Kevin's integrity and that was not my intent. My apologies to Kevin.

What was your intention ?

Keith
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My intent was to point out that to raise an eyebrow when one individual is working with two "pure" lines of easterns that both look to have goini influence is natural. That you, or I for that matter, think Kevin is straight up is subjective. I realize however that the comment looked like a slam and apologized.

Note I wouldn't even go down this road if you didn't take such hard line stances when others use subjective criteria in labeling animals that you disagree with.

Fact of the matter is Keith like it or not you have set yourself up as an expert on this forum and there is the danger that others here might start taking your opinion as fact like they do to John Cherry on the Pit forum. I'm just trying to hold you to the highest standard. Sorry if you don't like that.

intent was to point out that to raise an eyebrow when one individual is working with two "pure" lines of easterns that both look to have goini influence is natural.

see Tony here is where either you lack the power to see clearly or dont want to. You totally created this arguement of Pure Easterns when there was none there. I challenge you to go thru the thread and pull out the areas where Will or I said these are pure Easterns and cant possibly have Goini genetics in them. Now we did say they didnt have Goini in the unnaturally via Kevin breeding it into them but naturally I agred with this and have stated in the past that gener flow from the state of Florida goes 2 ways not just one. I was only defending the challenge of misrepresentation and somewho you blended the two.

note I wouldn't even go down this road if you didn't take such hard line stances when others use subjective criteria in labeling animals that you disagree with.

This is an interesting statement. I can take it a couple of ways one you are the "Enforcer" one these forums or you are the only voice of reason. The only hard line stance I took was Kevin didnt breed Goini into his animals I guess I needed to be put in my place for my hard line stance.

Fact of the matter is Keith like it or not you have set yourself up as an expert on this forum and there is the danger that others here might start taking your opinion as fact like they do to John Cherry on the Pit forum. I'm just trying to hold you to the highest standard. Sorry if you don't like that.

This is laughable Tony. Lets stick to this particular discussion okay. If people take my opinions as gospel regarding Kevin Enge being an honest Breeder than good. As far as other things please enlighten me to my platform of sweeping opinions. If people are swayed into thinking my opinion is valid then thats their gig and its not your responsibilty to police this.
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I could hear your voice in my head saying "Oh no! Not this guy again! LOL". When we were arguing around the holidays I tried to point out that maybe you didn't realize that you were being looked at as the guy with all the facts. Apparently some people still feel that you do come off that way, but I can see you do make an effort to reason and prove your reasoning so that should say something for the kind of person you are. The pic of the wide banded or whatever it was called instantly made me assume it had some Goini in the mix. Simply because of the look. Many comments on the forum have to do with the look of a snake, and what it actually is. I know you have shown evidence that the snake came out of very easterny looking easterns and all but that still has me shaking my head wondering how that happened? This contest of who is most credible is going to be eternal. Worse off even if any one of us go in the field and collect new stock....and then produce odd babies the argument will start again of nevermind the locale........it is a cross, or show a lot of influence from this or that. You standing up for your friends reputation is no different from me standing up for Rainer and Brandon. It is going to happen, and we'll all just have to deal with it and try to watch how we word things. I love the variability in some snakes. It makes them more appealing to me. It just seems that we will never be able to explain why it happens, or be able to prove if it is from breeding 2 subs, or if it just a variant. What this forum needs is not for us frequent posters to change our thoughts. We need more participation from lurkers who simply read and do not post. Its to the point where some of us know the answers to people we're questioning before they reply. Either more people including the actual people we are referring too start posting, or it's time for a no holds barred steel cage match at Daytona this year ! LOL Tom Stevens

Either more people including the actual people we are referring too start posting, or it's time for a no holds barred steel cage match at Daytona this year

YA Babay!
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ClickThroughAd&FID=1&TID=0

Keith-
I wish Kevin himself would come on here because I have several questions. I have been watching his table at shows for a long time. While you are just getting bits of info and passing it on.

Very well said. My thoughts too! I wish more folks WOULD "STAND UP"!!!!

Zee

Very well said. My thoughts too! I wish more folks WOULD "STAND UP"!!!!

Zee

Keith: I challenge you to go thru the thread and pull out the areas where Will or I said these are pure Easterns and can't possibly have Goini genetics in them.

That would be pretty hard to do since I've already said the impression is implicit but I've got a deal for you Keith. Since we seem to be at an impass I'll take the hit. It's all me, and I'll not trouble you with useless banter anymore.

Dont be a baby.

Keith
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That's not it att all Keith, this is just a waste of valuable time. You might have it but I don't.

Snakes have been bred by so many people for so long, that EVEN wild caught populations are not guaranteed to be pure anymore (due to careless releases by novice breeders for years).
We simply assume that an animal is pure simply by its' appearance - One pic, one look is all it takes! To me that's a little narrow-minded! Do some homework/research and you might find out different sometimes . NOBODY here is A total "Above GOD expert". So that means we have to do our best to be HONEST amongst each other and to educate ourselves about different animals' location & appearances in those locations and possible influences from subspecies. That IS the best we can do (with regards to purity). If I sell one of my snakes at least I believe I have enough info or locality data to know WHAT I'm selling. That's all you can ask for.

To attack or ridicule someone right away is a little harsch in my opinion. It only shows possible weakness and anger or unhappiness/misery in a person. Or it may be that the person is set in their ways OR believes that they know more than ANYBODY! Nobody knows Everything. Not me, Not this person, not that person, and so on... BUT we can learn more by sharing information. To disagree is ok (and it's good to do so a lot of times), but to really emphasize it is a little is more input than is needed (I do my kids that way, though) My 1.8 cents. . .

I have animals from Kevin Enge, Len Krysko, Will Still, Keith Hillson, Tony D., Kathy Love, and a few others. I Bought those animals because I like the way they look, but I also realize that more than likely that most of these animals are not pure, because I have been collecting lots of snakes in many states in the US for over 26 years now, and NONE have looked as PRETTY as the ones I purchased. I am not complaining, but think about it. . .WHO REALLY CARES (about purity) as long as you have info on Locality, parents/grandparents AND most of all done your home work on the species you're buying. . . After all, MOST filed guides say it best when it comes to describing many species of snakes: HIGHLY VARIABLE (due to 1001 reasons!)

AND yes I do prefer locality animals and as much purity as I can get and (at least I think) I am a responsible breeder . . .(Not a hybrid lover, sorry. Yes they're pretty, but not for me)

By the way, I DO think Keith's snakes (and some of mine) have about 25% influence from goinis. But that's MY opinion (and I usually keep it to myself)! Since it IS mostly EASTERN what's wrong with someone calling it that. They are basing it on locality and all information that they have. . .THE thing that REALLY counts (to me) is: THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL ANIMALS,(KEITH)!
That's: APPRECIATION 101, (not biology 101)! Most of us on this forum ARE blue collars (NOT PHDs) who appreciate snakes!

It's not WHAT you want, but WANTING what you got!!!
(I'm happy with my "almost pure" collection . . .)

PEACE to all and to all a good night!
Zee

Though I suspect some of your last was directed at me I agree 100%. I believe most others do too. What gets me though is when some deside to blast one line because it looks a bit different and then tout another as pure when the founder stock clearly came from an integration zone.

I may have been directing some of that stuff to you, but it was only meant as a reminder that I don't enjoy STRONG disagreements between us. By reading YOUR posts from the past, along with Keith, Rainer, Kerby and a few others I have learned a lot on this forum. I also learn a lot from disagreements, but not the ones that seem to get carried away and turn into personal attacks (almost). Those are a waste of everyone's time and only drive people away from these froums. Some of those people may have some really good information that they could share with all of us. I don't want to miss out on that. I don't think anybody would. That's our only way to get more educated than the books are - to share information and experiences. Here's a pic of an Eastern King I got from Will last year. You may also tell me that you don't think it's pure (and hopefully you would tell me why), but that's okay, cause I do want you to be honest. I can deal with that. I remember a while back I posted a pic of a snake that was labeled a "goini" at the NC. show. That pic drew a lot of ??? most thought it had some cal king in it. Me: I wasn't sure myself, but now I have a better idea because of the input I received from the people on here.

Of course at the same time I hope people don't get their feelings hurt just because someone doesn't agree with something somone posted. That's not neccessary! USE that information and think about this: I wonder why he didn't agree with me? There probably is a reason for it.

By the way: Remember me? I was the guy that bought two of your okeetee corns (a male yearling & a hypomelanistic baby) at the last Richmond show (I had my 11 year old son & his friend with me). Are you going to be at the SC. show this weekend?
Take care, man!

Zee

Here's the pic I forgot to add (on the above post) (Sorry)

Zee

Zee,
Absolutely the best Eastern I have seen to date. Love the FLAMES!!
Looks like a Hot Rod Eastern. LOL
John

Can't wait to breed two of them like that! But I'll have to wait at least a year or two!
I will also be mixing them up with others (distant relatives) from the same locality (to keep inbreeding to a minimum). Here's one of a pair I picked up from Kevin Enge (the male):

Zee

Awesomely told Zee. I hope I never lose the thrill and joy of having the freedom to go out in this beautiful land of ours and collecting herps. Thank God we can share our cool looking herps with each other and let's all play nice. Sheesh, let's get on with the snakin' and quit the fakin'! Anyways, those are awesome lookin' snakes. I love my new Desert/Speck as much as any one of my "true" kigs anyways.
slitherin' off, Todd

To attack or ridicule someone right away is a little harsch in my opinion. It only shows possible weakness and anger or unhappiness/misery in a person.

Hmmmmmm. Where have I witnessed that before? I don't think Tony is necessarily questioning the purity of any animals here. He's just trying to make a point to the "purists". I got slammed for posting pics of red blotched kings, by the "purists". I did my research and found out where my adults came from. As is has been said by many people over the past 20 something years, blotched kings are THE most variable of the common kings. I've produced 100s of them over the last 10 years and none have looked the same. Yes there is variablity in all ssp. It seems that the "purists" only see that option in their own, or their friends', collections. They'll take someone else's word but not this guy or that. Very contradictive if you ask me. Now I'm gonna stay out of it.

Oh Brandon please. I remember when you first posted that snake I said it looked odd. I never said it was for sure this or that just that it looked like it has Floridana in it. You then flew into a tizzy. When you eventually posted the breeder of that snake many many months later I never said well hey that guy breeds Hybrids or I dont know him etc...I simply let it go. Tony did do this he questioned Kevins integrity even though he claims he didnt. I went out and got the word of the guy who produced the snakes and he not only questioned his word but also another local as well. There comes a point when the guy who bred the snake says its "this" and if you trust this person because they have an excellent rep you either take their word for it or shut up as you have no proof they did what you claim they did. You wont find a single post here by me stating I know what someones snake is if I have questioned it. Also kill the purist crap what the hell is a purist anyway ?

Keith
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I never said that snake looked odd. I said it looked awesome. It was the male Lemke animal that looked odd to me. Why so touchy?

Brandon

What are you talking about ? I never said you said something looked odd ??? Are we on the same thread here ? I was referring back to when you posted a pic of a Goini and I said it looked like it had Floridana in it. You diudint know the breeder and you got it at a show. Months later you said James Brumley produced the snake. I never then didnt bang the breeder of that snake even though I still think it looks like it has Floridana in it. Would I bet 100 bucks that it does ? No way of course not I could be wrong as I never said with any certainty that is a Floridana X Goini crosss ever. What Kevin and Rainer did is totally different so you bringing up your past expirience isnt relevant as I had the breeder info I talked with the breeder and he claims they are what I said they were. Tony went on to further question Kevin Enge. Funny you ask me if Im sensitive when it seesm your a the touchy one bringing up an old arguement. Like you said before, rip it up.

Keith
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It is funny isn't it? lol. I'm not upset. Why are you? As I've said before, locality is only a true as the location in which it was caught. For you to question the VARIABILITY of my snake and not a "goini" looking eastern is what I find so funny. You can dish it out, but you can't take it. Just like all of us. lol.

Peace man.
Brandon

Brandon here I wasted all that time and you said it in 25 words or less! LMAO

The differences are glaring Brandon. You were clueless about your snakes history at the time. You didnt know the breeders name when asked. I had my info and the snake was being challenged and I answered it. Would you have said nothing if in my place ? The answer is obviously no as you have before i.e. your Goini. If someone wants to say hey that looks like it has Goini in it and I then give them all the pertinent background info what is the point of continually calling into question a person with an excellent rep like Enge's without a shred of proof. My guess is its to personally give me a hard time as some derive pleasure in creating an enviroment of bickering etc...and Im not referring to you.

Keith
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np

Zee

I feel like Im shooting a dead horse here. Nobody is claiming that Easterns from S. Georgia are pure Eastern. Tony keeps saying Will and I are claiming that but we arent and its getting stupid. I have contended in other posts and in this thread like 7 times that I agree with the thought of gene flow from the south. Im sure Goini gene flow has gone up into S GA just as L.g.g. has gone south. For some reason people keep getting sucked into or stuck on the notion Will and I are claiming that these are Pure as the driven snow Easterns and we arent. Im defending the notion by Rainer and Tony that Kevin Enge has been breeding Goini into his Easterns and thats why Will's and mine Easterns look that way. I talked with Kevin and he denied what those two guys contend and I posted his response. You mention that you have always thought that mine and Wills snake look like they are 25% Goini but have you seen Wills breeder pair ? Do they look 25% Goini ? Does your male and female from Kevin look 25% Goini ? Wills animals are F1's not 3rd or 4th generation animals. I agree they do look Goinish but at the same time they look more like the Mosaics from Edisto Island in SC. I think back breeding these snakes has bought out ancestral traits like that of the Goini or it could be something else (recessive mutation)? I posted a pic of a snake thats almost identical to my male from Will and its a f1 from a wild collected gravid female from Berkely Co., SC. Im pretty sure thats a long haul for any Goini or the trickling of genetics. Again all Im saying is its either from ancestral natural gene flow or something recessive like a mutation. Overall I hear your message and I wish this hadnt turned into a bash session buit the charges had to be defended.

Zee here are the parents to mine and Wills animals in question. These look like classic GA Easterns to me. What do you think?

p.s. Did you get my email ? I senbt it to your hotmail account a few days ago but havent heard back from you. Ill try and give you a ring tomorrow.
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but that's all. The goini in them is reffering to the wide bands and orange coloring. I don't think/know you can get that look simply by breeding a goini to an eastern - EVER! I am more inclined to think it came from a looooong time ago and manifested itself into the extreme south central GA. populations. THAT's what makes these snakes so unique (and special in my eyes)! That's why I purchased MORE than one from Kevin Enge & Will Still!
And yes, I CALL THEM ALL EASTERN KINGS - PERIOD! I DO have some goini's and they have different influences in them too. AND guess what: I call them GOINI's, cause that's just what they are! Percent purity? Who REALLY cares as long as you can ask the average getula guy/gal and their first response agrees with your thoughts (That's my measuring tool). If they look half and half to me, then believe me I will call them half and half! I WILL NEVER DECEIVE ANYBODY and that is never my intention. My intention is to remind myself that this is a forum for H-O-B-B-I-E-S-T-S NOT PHDs, Bilogists and Genetecists ONLY! It's for all of us! HERE's a pic of a female EASTERN King (not a 25% goini mix,LOL) I got from Will Still

Hey Keith please write me at: carstenzoldy@yahoo.com. My hotmail no longer exists. THANKS

Zee

Zee-
Have you ever seen what a 25% goini mix looks like?

Exactly a good point you brought up: I DONT!!! But it was more or less a hypothetical analysis of the animal's appearance: If it were half and half or 50%, then it would show a little of all the traits of a goini: orange coloring AND light areas within scales in the dark saddles! Since one of those two traits is missing (the dark saddles have NO light scales and never will), I did my "not so accurate, non PHD common sense" math, and came up with 25% (50%= the two traits, minus one trait and I'm left with one trait- half of what I just had = 25%).
Any questions?
Ok, I've had my fun, but anyway, it was only a guess! So don't hold my feet to the fire on that one! The guess was made with a pair of eyeballs - not a calculator (in other words after looking at the snake and knowing the very basics of the getula world most folks will agree it looks much more like an eastern than it does a goini, hence the 75%/25% ratio).Remember: Not a PHD, Not a Steve Irwin, not a field biologist, or rocket scientist! But by golly I love these animals for their beauty and this hobby!!! That's my college specialty: APPRECIATION 101!

I am an expert on everyhting, but know so little and have so much to learn - Carsten Zoldy -

Zee

After all is said and done AND having the information from the parents of the snake and locality from what I believe to be a trustworthy person, I would ALWAYS label them as EASTERN king snakes (not a 75/25 mix - this was only MY term used to describe these beautiful S. GA. Kings - not trying to indicate that they're mixed with anything).

Zee