Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a few headshots of a couple meahllmorums. I'm starting a new thread since it might get lost in the old thread. This is one of a Hebbronville/Freer meahllmorum.

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Terry Parks

collected on Hwy 277.

Terry, nice animal. Do you still have it? I'd like to see a little closer look sometime. I think Hwy. 277 is in the intergrade zone, right? That would make it emoryi X meahllmorum?

I like the Freer/Hebbronville stock, because the ground color is quite light. They usually have a low band count too, I think. Also, many snakes in this area have the disrupted pattern, called reverse-striped. My lone female is like that.

The Nueces Co. rats are nice too. Good color and pattern. I know you and John L. are working with some of these, but I wonder how many? I'm planning to make a "generic" meahllmorum one of these days too, so it's kinda nice to know where all the stock is. I heard recently that the main producer of BI rats and R-S rats doesn't have them anymore. I don't know who they went to. Not you, right?

Thanks for the post....TC.

Terry C.
I thought Hwy 277 was pure Emoryi. Doesn't the Meahllmorum zone stop South of Calhoun Co. ? Hwy 277 is to the north and west of Calhoun Co.
That Hwy 277 specimen Terry P. has does have a low blotch count for being so close to the Western specimens which have high blotch counts. Nice animals.
Terry I have a breeding colony of 5 wild caught specimens all from Nueces Co. I did not sex them when I put them into brumation. I think odds are for me that I have at least one pair. I am hoping to have 1.4 but it is unlikely. I will keep you guys posted as to what I have when they warm up and start breeding. I can't wait to hatch some more out.
-John Lassiter-

>>Terry C.
>>I thought Hwy 277 was pure Emoryi. Doesn't the Meahllmorum zone stop South of Calhoun Co. ? Hwy 277 is to the north and west of Calhoun Co.
>>That Hwy 277 specimen Terry P. has does have a low blotch count for being so close to the Western specimens which have high blotch counts. Nice animals.
>>Terry I have a breeding colony of 5 wild caught specimens all from Nueces Co. I did not sex them when I put them into brumation. I think odds are for me that I have at least one pair. I am hoping to have 1.4 but it is unlikely. I will keep you guys posted as to what I have when they warm up and start breeding. I can't wait to hatch some more out.
>>-John Lassiter-

John,

According to KJ's map, if you travel from about Del Rio east to San Antonio, then due East to just above Victoria, then draw a line due south to the coastal plain, you'd have the northern limits of pure meahllmorum. There is a huge intergrade zone north of that, however. According to KJ's map, once again, all of Val Verde and Sutton Co's, and up to Eldorado, along 277, is intergrade zone bt. emoryi and meahllmorum. Almost all of West TX is in the intergrade zone. That's one reason I'm going to do a "generic" Great Plains Rat project, because I'll see so many intergrades while herping in W. TX.

We don't know where along 277 Terry's speciman came from, but it sure looks like an intergrade to me

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

Highway 277 does go through the integrade zone. Highway 277 also goes up through the pure emoryi zone. I'm going to try and get a more specific locale data on him. I've started looking at the differences in dorsal pattern/blotch shapes. There seems to be a possible relationship between the different pattern shapes and the subspeicies and/or locales. More so than the color variances. Maybe I'm way off. I still have all the snakes in the pictures. I just took them last night.

Terry Parks

>>Highway 277 does go through the integrade zone. Highway 277 also goes up through the pure emoryi zone. I'm going to try and get a more specific locale data on him. I've started looking at the differences in dorsal pattern/blotch shapes. There seems to be a possible relationship between the different pattern shapes and the subspeicies and/or locales. More so than the color variances. Maybe I'm way off. I still have all the snakes in the pictures. I just took them last night.
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>>Terry Parks

Hi, Terry.

Do you have a copy of Vaughan et al.'s paper? One of the main characters they use is the number of blotches, I believe. Of course, if you are just looking at the blotch shapes, that's different. Here's a pic of a het for amel. emoryi, one parent from se. Kansas that I'm going to get in the spring...

Notice the number and width of blotches. The snake you pictured had less blotches and wider blotches, which makes it more like meahllmorum, I think, thus a probable intergrade. Not saying for sure, just guessing, since we don't have a location either.

TC

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Ratsnake Haven: Calico and hypo Chinese beauty snakes, Mandarin ratsnakes, Chinese twin-spotted ratsnakes, South Korean Dione's ratsnake, leopard snakes, Great Plains ratsnakes, and corn snakes

Nice pic Terry. Sure looks like a Kansas specimen. West Texas specimens look like that as well with lighter colored blotches.
Nice!!
John Lassiter

Yes, I have a copy of Dr. Vaughan's et al.'s paper. I mentioned the snake was sent to me as an emoryi, but I do believe it is possibly an integrade. I was looking at the blotch shapes secondary to count. I was looking at the shapes over the color variations. Nice snake in the pic TC.

Terry Parks

>>Yes, I have a copy of Dr. Vaughan's et al.'s paper. I mentioned the snake was sent to me as an emoryi, but I do believe it is possibly an integrade. I was looking at the blotch shapes secondary to count. I was looking at the shapes over the color variations. Nice snake in the pic TC.
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>>Terry Parks
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Thanks, Terry.

I think the blotch shapes are interesting, but if it's an intergrade, there's probably going to be some overlap in what we expect. If you look on page 184 in Vaughan's paper there's an interesting table. Number of ventrals + caudals shows a significant variation with the South TX guttatus. Try counting this number and comparing it to the table. We can also count blotches and ventrals, etc, on the coastal forms we find, as Vaughan et. al didn't have, but one of these, I think, in their study, and made no determination on whether they were the guttatus, meahllmorum, or intergrade ssps. What they called guttatus, we call slowinskii (TX corns). Sure would like to see their newest study in print and some genetics.

TC

I believe for the Hwy 277 specimen to have any Meahllmorum influence then it would have to have come from the Del Rio area in Val Verde Co. at the southern most point of Hwy 277, but I always thought these to be Emoryi. Most Ratsnakes from this area and farther south especially have more numerous blotches and a lighter hue to them. The one Terry Parks has looks to be an intergrade due to the low blotch count and size/shape of blotches.
As I said, Nice animal.
John Lassiter

Tery P. and Terry C.
That one has a perfect pattern. Even his lateral blotches are perfect. It kinda reminds me of the two I just picked up but who knows what mine are. I got them from the local petshop and was told these were sold at an Expo as pure emoryi.
Take a look again guys and see what you think. Sorry to be so adamant about these but I am curious as hell about them.
John Lassiter

John - The pic I posted does look similar to the ones in your pic. People haven't really recognized the integration zone as much as they should in the past IMHO. They are either referred to as emoryi or meahllmorum. There is an integration zone and I'm sure there have been some emoryi X meahllmourms integrades collected in it. Love the ones in your pic.

Terry Parks

Ya know, the more I look at John's two snakes there, the more two things stand out. First the blotches/pattern make me think both meahllmorum and emoryi. It very well could have come from intergrades, but looks more like some kind of a "cross". The other thing is the clean, light ground color. Something tells me that ain't right...there must be a mutant gene in there someplace. Almost looks hypo. We may never know. Then again, you could find a mutation if you pair the two one spring

TC

Well Terry,
I am feeding the hell out of them trying to get them to size by this coming December. Maybe in '06 we will find out. I wish I had the patience I once had before the wife and 4 kids. LOL!!!!!
John Lassiter

Also Terry,
Do you think these are some sort of Emoryi corn from a Cream project with more Emoryi in it than Corn?
Just one of my guesses.
John Lassiter

>>Also Terry,
>>Do you think these are some sort of Emoryi corn from a Cream project with more Emoryi in it than Corn?
>>Just one of my guesses.
>>John Lassiter

John, I've been thinking about that one. I would say it's definitely possible. I'm stumped really. I don't really see the corn in it, but slowinskii would be a real possibility, and I consider that a type of corn. That's a reason why I think it may be a cross bt. more than one variant. Who knows what people put together these days. I don't mean to be overly critical, but this is another reason I like localities, and even collecting my own sometimes.

Terry

Man they are looking good Terry. Can't wait till some eggs hatch from these.
As for the head patterns, they all have a classic "spearpoint". Sometimes here in Nueces Co. the spearpoint is broken but that is a small variation and can not be used to separate these from others.
Thanks for the pics,
John Lassiter

Here is one of my Nueces Co. Meahllmorum
John Lassiter

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Thank you Terry P. Keep us posted on the eggs and hatchlings when they arrive as I will with mine.
John Lassiter

Thanks for the comments John. I'll let you know when I get eggs. I really like the Nueces County ones Dave sent me on loan.

Terry Parks