Reptile & Amphibian Forums

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hahaha.. if I tried that with one of my lace monitors, I'd be called 'lefty'. I'd probably be missing the end of my nose, as well.

Thats pretty funny, I really do not mind people doing that, but they really should do it in the privcy of their own home. Like so many other things.

No Crocs do not have the feeding responce of a lacie. But Males can be fairly aggressive. Females are really laid back.

This fella here, is what gets so many things made illegal. Doing dumb things in public. Hey its about as bad as tailing king browns. F

I agree, this is exactly why things become illegal.

Personally, I'd be more comfortable tailing the king brown, or even an eastern brown, provided the antivenom is administered in time. The damage is less likely to be as permanent and as disfiguring as a bite from a lace monitor or a croc monitor

that should read that I'd be happier being bitten by, rather than tailing, either of those snakes. It reads as though tailing will automatically lead to being bittne

Hes in his own living room. Seems responsible enough to me. Hes a big boy right?

well, when he and a few like him end up hospitalised and a move is made to ban monitors as 'pets' in your state, remind me of what a big boy he as your own monitors get taken from you.

Of course you're right in that what he does in his own lounge room is his business. On the other hand, posting photos of it on this forum, where every second post is a newbie asking if salvadorii, salvator, komodoensis and whatever other monitor they want to get can be 'tamed', is irresponsible IMO.

im a newbie here and i can even tell u thats stupid. Monitors arnt a domestic pet like cats or dogs. they are still wild animals and always will be no matter how "tame" they act. i wont even hand feed my african spurred tortise cuz it could easily take my finger and i have only 2 retiles i trust to hand feed and thats my green iguana which iv had since it was 2 weeks old and my corn snake that iv had since it was 5 days old(my baby girl blaze her 1st clutch just hatched last week )

Dear replies….First and foremost, I placed these photographs [finally] for a reason, to let the cat out the bag so to speak. I constantly read/hear about the savage nature of these beasts, their hunting dog ambushes even stories whereas the native people of PNG fear these Tree Dragons, for legend has it they are man-eaters. Please note, Crocky shows all the usual behavioural characteristics of a Monitor Lizard and then some.

You state my actions place monitor ownership in jeopardy as my irresponsible actions could lead to a ban through injury. If I were to be bitten do you think plastering the wound over the net would help any. Do Reticulated Python owners do this? You could learn something from those guys.

Firstly, I reside in the UK not the US so I would imagine my actions would not affect you directly, shock if it did. Secondly, Crocky is the ONLY one in private hands in the UK and is the ONLY CB Crocodile Monitor in the Europe. Thirdly, SCIENTIFIC NAME: Varanus Salvadorii, have been highlighted and presumably to be placed on our country’s DWA list which prohibits common ownership and rightly so.

I believe, amongst you are the scaremongers, blind to any possible advances in Salvadorii behavioural attitudes or their adaptability. Many of you say you have had little to no experience with Crocodile Monitors yet you jump to conclusions and comment. In many cases uneducated conclusions or educated from this forum or its ilk. In the past people, good people were burned at the stake for such.

Why is it so difficult to believe, maybe just maybe this species of reptile posses the intelligence to not only recognise their keeper but to respond with a form of affection even physically communicate as say a domestic dog. Shock horror, what is this man saying! It cant be so, there must be an angle, he’s cold… over fed? Crocky is NOT WC and differs in temperament greatly as do all individuals, as in dogs. Yes he has the potential to inflict exactly the same type of injury as a WC specimen, injuries I am keen to avoid. Those non-believers amongst us real in horror as I am seen to hand feed Crocky. Yet not one single scientific question is asked of me… “Tell me more about Crockys behaviour, attitude, intelligence his ability to learn and what exactly has contributed to his so-called tameness.”

Predictably so, as you are presumably all PET-OWNERS not scientists… nor for that matter am I. What I posses apart from big balls is belief. I cannot say with any certainty Crocky will one day throw a ‘spazzie’ and take a chomp or worse. Although more likely that my 3 Neapolitan Mastiffs, I believe the risk is [at this present time minute by minute risk assessment!] slim.

NOTE: Neapolitan Mastiffs are BANNED across many parts of Europe, including Germany as they are deemed to dangerous for pet ownership! Am I that deranged that as I type this my two boys play with 3 180lb Mastiffs. In many countries I would be imprisoned for such and ridiculed as a careless parent-pet owner, front page news yet in the UK it’s acceptable.

I breed Reticulated Pythons, Burmese, African Rocks, Boelens…7 subspecies of Boa-Constrictor amongst others and I get bitten from time to time, such is the hobby. I have as yet you’ll be pleased to hear not been bitten by Crocky. There are amongst you who cannot wait for this to happen, plain by your words. I would not wish that on anyone. Ask yourselves this, why… just so you can say “told ya so”. How Crocky came to display these unusual behavioural characteristics is for a another time but can I ask you, if a ban was ever to be proposed in your state…… would you turn to the offending pictures and my experiences with Crocky as positive evidence. Maybe.

What does concern me though is maybe that you are correct with regards to posting such a bold opposing view to Croc monitors and the affect it may have on the New’ie, possibly persuading him or her of a Salvadorii’s suitability as a pet. I have been victim to the same arrogance I have accused you all for which I apologise. My intention was to have a difference in opinion aired. I do feel however the responsibility of the reptile breeders should be reinforced at the point of sale.

Careful too what you pen, you have the right to remain silent….
. From the paranoia within your own replies you shall eventually see the ban you so fear realised. Your doing not mine. Regards Max

Actually your posts and its intent are very naive. No Croc monitors are not monsters, we know that. They are actually shy retiring creatures. But that really is not the point. Is it.

Yes, there are some here(and everywhere) that try to make Croc monitors out as killers, well they are not killers, or are they???? They are not, at least intentionally. But then, intentions have very little to do with it. not with monitors or humans.

I have a little experience with them, I have bred and hatched a few. But I will no longer breed them because of people like you.

Statistics do not follow logic or behavior, they simply are statistics. With that said, more keepers have made visits to the hospital and have had severe local damage from croc bites then any other reptile, except true crocs. But pound or kilo, per pound or kilo, the croc monitors still wins that contest. And there are very few Croc monitors around, compared to other larger monitors.

Simply put, they have weapons, and will eventually use them, either on purpose or by accident. Yes the result will still be the same.

Back to are they killers or not. No, except if you allow a male to reach ten foot, then yes. Imagine your croc monitor at ten foot. Then entertain the thought, of it biting you, clapping down, and jerking back and forth(bull dogging). Guess what, monitors do that.

Now, what are you really teaching these kids?????????? And who is the fool????? Frank

Frank, I do so enjoy a fruity debate however I do not usually respond to name calling as I find it somewhat immature. Fool I maybe. You state you have at one time bred Crocodile Monitors and because of people like me you no longer do so... begs two questions, firstly by implication you have at some time sold and profited from the sale of said species too, how do I put it... people like me. If you state you have never supplied a Croc to an unsuitable owner then where does your concern lie. Secondly, have you indirectly caused injury to person/persons by your profiteering. I do not disagree that this has not happened at all but who are these people who have sustained severe local damage from Croc bites if not your customers..you? By the fact you did supply and now do not suggests you yourself was once naive. We can all be forgiven that.

You state…They all have weapons and will eventually use them. This I agree with this however I treat my adult Retics with a considerably more caution and respect than I do a hatchling. Common sense really. At 10 foot Crocky will no longer be in my care as he has already become part of the European Zoo breeding Programme and is already placed. Genetically he is very valuable within Europe’s Zoos. But you didn’t know of my plans for Crocky did you Frank, then again you didn’t ask. He will not enter the pet trade by my doing unlike some of your examples.

I can only comment on my experiences to date. Would you wish I lie in the future to protect the innocent with tails of horror. I do not agree to Crocs becoming pets. Europe has banned all WC animals for some time… remember Crocky is the ONLY CB specimen in Europe. The concern over pet ownership and personal injury to a naïve keeper remains on your side of the pond. Maybe you should become a little more constructive given your personal experiences and couch opinions and lobby your authorities, maybe you have who knows. This shall ensure people like me do not fall foul to impulse and purchase such a dangerous reptile from unscrupulous dealers. As you state pound or kilo, per pound or kilo, Croc monitors are…. well you know

NOTE: it took almost a year to import a Croc Monitor into Europe from placing an order. Impulse purchase Crocky was not. Max

What your going to do with your monitor is meaningless. What your intent is, again in meaningless. What I did with my offspring is also meaningless. As well and any stupid thing i may have done in the past. Buddy we are talking about you, right here and now. What you did was foolish, there is no question about that. Showing pics of a croc monitor on your head is foolish, period. Admit it or not. This is a forum use mostly by young people, they are young in both age and experience. If you were not so foolish, you would realize, that doing what you did, could have no benefit for either croc monitors or the people who keep them.

If indeed you were trying show that croc monitors are not monsters. All you have to do is type the words, my croc monitor is not a killing monster, at least not yet. But putting in on your head or feeding by hand does not tell us about the monitor, but instead it tells us about you. That is reality.

I never said you shouldn't put one on your head. Heck, go for it, i could care if one bites your dingler off. As long as it stays out of the public eye. You could have a party and lie on the floor naked with mice or peepers all over you. That would be very entertaining. But to post it here, means you are either foolish or worse.

About profiting from the offspring, again it shows your foolish in your understanding of business, to profit means to gain money over and above the cost of investment. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, It would take many years of selling offspring to actually gain a profit. But again that has nothing to do with YOU posting pics of a croc monitor on your head. Also, if you keep doing that, you as well get use to people calling you names. F

F, lets leave it at that…. Its getting personal. You are entitled to your opinion as am. Regards Max

Hope this helps the blood pressure Frank....

and i suppose where ever you go ppl will see this as a threat (your pic)to the hobby,there are a few stories of "killer reptiles" in the mainstream media so i personally don't see the problem with your pic-lou dadanno was attacked by his retic and there was another story a few years back about a man (i forgot his name)who was partially devoured by his nile's when he died in his flat.I own a nile and i have been bitten and whipped many times but strangely as she gets bigger she slowly stopped biting and whipping to the point where she doesn't do it any more,but i wouldn't say "yeah she's tame".Animal welfare groups will always come up with excuses or instances where animals are abused,mistrreated or carelesly handled,Last year i went to a show where there was a group (i won't name them)who rescued reptiles and i asked about adopting a monitor,there reply was "All monitors are deadly to man and should not be owned by the general public"After this i told them i already owned a nile to which i they said was highly idiotic of me and that they will await my phone call to say i didn't want her anymore.
See yah
jason

I just wanted to say that Crocky is beautiful. I also admire that you are raising him to be given to a Zoo (which, for a 10 foot monitor, is probably the only suitable place).

I'm quite certain that you would never attempt with an adult Crocky what you are letting hatchling Crocky do (climb all over you, eat from your hand). It seems like common sense to me that you wouldn't hand feed something with a mouth as big as your hand. I think the people who have attacked you on this board are just overly cynical, and perhaps rightly so.

On a side note, I love Neopolitan Mastiffs. Like Pit Bulls, of course they are dangerous if we lead them to be so. However, a well bred Mastiff is a loyal and beautiful companion, and I find nothing offensive about letting your children play with that Mastiff. If anything, I'm jealous. I want one once I have moved into a house and have the room.

Good luck with Crocky. I hand feed my monitors but then again, they are both dwarfs. The worst my Ackie could do would be some lacerations, but she climbs all over my head just like Crocky does. I hope you enjoy the interaction you are having with him while he is still small enough to do so. Then you'll get to enjoy how big and beautiful he becomes over the months/years.
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1.2 Mali Uromastyx (Ricky, Quinn, Anna)
0.1 Yellow Ackies (Roxie)
1.0 Timor (Zealot)

Emily
www.egomantra.com/npoh

I thought you might like a picky of Mattise by way of thanks.

n/p

oh WOW!!! he is soooo pretty. i love big dogs so much
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1.2 Mali Uromastyx (Ricky, Quinn, Anna)
0.1 Yellow Ackies (Roxie)
1.0 Timor (Zealot)

Emily
www.egomantra.com/npoh

What a beauty!!! I love big dogs. I've got a great Newfoundland now. And, I would desperately like to get a Neo [bleep] to start an extremely small breeding program here in the states.

np

...one of the few downsides to living on the other side of the world is that these threads are finished by the time I read them and someone else has said most of what I wanted to say (thanks, Frank).

Like Frank, I don't believe croc monitors are man-eating monsters. In fact, I wasn't talking about biting out of malice, I was talking about feeding accidents. You could tell me that croc monitors hang around villages in New Guinea and feed on handouts from the locals, it wouldn't make a difference to what I am saying. You see, that's what lace monitors do here where I live and I take the same stance about hand feeding them. Even the wild ones will calmly walk around people's sandal clad feet looking for food without ever thinking about trying some of those pink tasty looking things sticking out from the sandals. Some people, apparently (I've heard about this, but haven't seen it myself), let these animals feed from their outstretched hands (it should be said that most non-herping Australians don't know about goanna teeth, they just fear the claws). I've also heard the stories that do reach the news when this all goes horribly wrong and a severe hand injury results. I am sure the animal meant no malice, it just saw food.

You responded pretty much as I had expected, telling me how 'tame' your crocky is. The most severe injury I have ever received from any reptile was from the 'tamest' reptile I have ever owned, a lace monitor just a bit bigger than crocky. He's captive bred. Had him since he was a hatchling, he used to spend hours sleeping on my back as I walked around my home. Everyone here has always said the he is the tamest monitor they have seen. I could poke him on the end of his snout with my finger and he wouldn't dream of biting it. One day, he almost removed my thumb. The details of how it happened aren't important, but I wasn't hand feeding him and he meant no malice. It was going to be a routine spot clean of the enclosure, as I do every morning before I go to work, but that morning I moved my hand a little too quickly while reaching over to pick him up and move him out of the way (otherwise he climbs on me and is quite annoying while I clean). That movement triggered a feeding response. One little tiny mistake on my part, moving my hand a bit faster than I might on any other morning (I was tired, the monitor wasn't), a split second reaction from the monitor and suddenly we are talking ambulance, microsurgery, hospitalisation, intravenous antibiotics, months of physiotherapy, permanent disfigurement and the possibility of never regaining full sensation and/or use of that thumb. Did I mention severed tendons, nerves and arteries and a partially severed joint capsule?

Let me reiterate: Tamest animal you could imagine, little guy like yours and that was WITHOUT me hand feeding him.

Now let's talk about you and your assumptions. You've made a lot of assumptions about us, Max/genuspython, but haven't really stopped to read, learn and think about what it is we are trying to say. Right about now you are going to make all sorts of new assumptions about me. You probably think I have little experience with reptiles, poor handling skills and am in some way nervous about handling them. You have already made the assumption that I must be an 'uneducated pet owner' (I think your exact words were "as you are presumably all PET-OWNERS not scientists" ). Let me tell you a little about myself. As far as I can recall, I don't think I've brought this up in any discussion here on this forum in the almost three years I've been hovering around here (mainly because I think it is irrelevant), but I AM a scientist. I have a PhD in herpetology (so it's Dr Uneducated Pet Owner to you from now on, sunshine ), which I got almost 20 years ago. Woop de do. My PhD wasn't in monitor husbandry, so it really has nothing to do with anything, but what it does say is that I have devoted a good chunk of my life to reptiles and have, let us say, had just a little bit of handling experience with them. My PhD was on estuarine crocodiles, by the way, which CAN be a big maneating reptile (like the croc monitor of myth). As Frank said, pound for pound or kilogram for kilogram, monitors can do a lot more damage. They have razor sharp teeth. They are also faster. I currently work at a public aquarium and I take a lot more chances feeding our big (very untame) estuarine crocodile than I ever would with one of my little, 'tame' lace monitors.

But I don't know why we are talking about crocodiles, or why you were talking about breeding pythons and keeping mastiffs, when the animals we should be talking about are monitors (Frank will chuckle at this statement, as I am famous for bringing other animals into the discussion). Python bites are laughable compared to monitor bites, trust me, and mastiffs are a domestic breed that, like other dogs, can be taught not to bite. I have yet to meet anyone that has actually lost fingers from a python bite (or from a dog bite, for that matter) but I can't say the same about monitor bites.

Speaking of assumptions, it would certainly be easy to make assumptions about you. The fact that you made the following two statements tells me more about you than you'll ever know:

1. "What I posses apart from big balls is ..."
2. "Why is it so difficult to believe, maybe just maybe this species of reptile posses the intelligence to not only recognise their keeper but to respond with a form of affection even physically communicate as say a domestic dog"

Well, I don't expect any of this to sink in, really, and I am not even sure why I am wasting my time typing all of this when you'll be sitting there thinking about how I don't understand how tame crocky is, about how I lack the amazing reptile handling skills you have blah blah blah...

So I'll end with this: I hope you are left handed, as you appear to be using your right hand to feed crocky. I hope nothing ever happens to your fingers, either. Honestly. If I really wished for you to get bitten, I would never have said anything, but just looked at your post and chuckled. It's possible nothing will happen and you'll never get bitten by crocky, but if you are willing to risk your fingers to prove what 'balls' you have, perhaps it's time you looked into why you need to.

Nice job Doc.

My sentiments as well, as I stated below...let this fellow be a fool if he wishes...its his hands, or lack there-of - his choice. In time, he will come to realize, when the unprovoked attack comes, and he is deficating in his pants...too bad he has to learn this lesson this way, and not use common sense.
Again, well said My Friend...
mbayless

'cause there sure are a lot of crybabies on this board. I can't say what your doing is wrong(I didn't see the pics) but even if I could, I usually like to mind my own business. No, I lied!
If the naysayers believe you are being foolish, then they can be assured of the fact that the result of your actions will bite you in the a$$(or finger, or nose, ETC.).
If they are saying that you are encouraging newbies to purchase croc monitors under the assumption that they can be tamed, then I say that any newbie that has the money to drop on a croc monitor can most likely afford the hospital bills.
Personally, I would love to see those pics because I enjoy looking at healthy monitors. I would understand you not posting them again. I'm personally tired of the wetworks. This board plays host to so much drama, I feel like I am back in high school.
I understand their cynical behavior, their experiences on this board are rife with morons. You are obviously not a moron; you can spell( a rare trait on this board)! I would have waited to find that out before crucifying you. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

... and perhaps that's exactly where you should go, if this is considered to be good spelling by you:

responce?
posses? (aside from the plural of 'posse', that is)

This isn't about spelling, though, it's about monitors with sharp teeth being fed by hand close to someone's face. You feel he has a right to post photographs of foolish behaviour. He does. The rest of us feel we have a right to post that said behaviour is foolish. We do. What's YOUR issue, then?

but I never claimed to be able to spell...

ohhh, emily's boyfriend, i forgot, or is that john doe?

i am a newbie here as i have only been typing on this forum for 2 years (i have kept monitors 5).

You have been doing so for what, a couple months? i think that makes you super newbie and gives you zero rights to say what you do.

you have no monitor experience (ok, maybe you have had your monitor a couple months, that is like me saying i have indicus experience, i kept them a couple months too)

you are trying to hang with some big boys when you go about bashing them, trust me, it isn't smart. instead try listening, shutting up some and learning. then apply that knowledge to your monitors, come back with some pics that back up your new found fruition.

here is a pic of mine, all it took was a little reading, a few decisions and a lot of common sense. it was easy really, the real learning is taking place now, as this little one is about ready to breed another hold back.

cheers

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Varanus Creations

I would like to thank you for the help with the ackie eggs. It was probably the only useful bit of information I have taken from this board. With that being said, I have also read articles by both Jeff Lemm and Frank Retes relevant to the subject. The reason we posted was to try and get as many different opinions as possible on incubation temperatures before picking one range. It would be pretty amateurish of me to accept only one source of information in my husbandry practices.
What you did for us was help us become more informed. That is my goal in this whole hobby, to be as well informed as possible. Unfortunately, the majority of this board does not contribute to my continuing education. The one thing I have learned from this board is how to be mean to newbies. It seems to me that a lot of this board's energy is dedicated to trashing newbies. As I scroll down the line, the newbie posts seem to have more responses than do most other posts.
The point some people seem to miss is that when a teenager comes to this board with his (insert any baby large monitor here), all the insulting in the world is not going to change the fact that he still owns the monitor and that he wants to do right by it. Should he have the monitor? No. Will he probably try and get rid of it when it gets to big? Sure. The problem I see is that people here automatically shun this hypothetical kid when he could be the one in a million to grow up and care for his responsibly.
For the record, I got my first monitor six years ago, a black throat. Unfortunately I was only able to keep him about two years when I had to move to a place where I could not provide adequate housing for such a large lizard. I am hesitant to post that because I myself have made the biggest of newbie mistakes.
I did learn from that experience, however, and now only keep dwarf monitors. I am not proud of what I did but had I been interacting with a board like this at the time, I would have never gotten back into monitors. Also for the record; we have had our ackie for a few months and our timor for close to a year, so to answer your question(was it one?) I have not just owned monitors “a couple months”. Granted, I don’t think my limited experience makes me a professional, but I am more that just some kid who bought a baby nile because it’s cute.
Frankly, I don't enjoy playing with the big boys. I don't like being insulted when I am trying to gather information to provide the best possible care for my lizards. Until now I have been content to listen, shut up and learn, as you put it. I realize that it my place as a student, but if the teachers don’t act like teachers, then I can’t learn. If the teachers are going to exert more energy insulting the slow kids than they do teaching the rest of the class, then I can’t learn. I frequent another monitor board, not as a poster, but as a student. I am content to listen, shut up, and learn over there. Yes I realize that nearly everyone who posts over here also posts over there but it seems that for some reason, people are less hostile over there. I am probably going to cease coming to this one altogether and I am sure I will not be missed.
Quick everyone! Reply with your witty comebacks!

There's some pretty angry people in here. The picture the guy posted wasn't bad.
Hell, the guy who posted lives in another country.
Doing stupid things such as blaming a picture, t.v., or music for breaking the law or buying a large monitor because you saw a pic , well what can i say only in America.
If people here are so upset about the laws in your area or the U.S. then stop breeding and for a year and spend that time educating or lobbying your local and state law makers.
I do enjoy reading this forum as it seems to be where those that are angry can gather and vent on anything they disagree with.
It's like seeing a croc rip a deer apart.
Starts with frank in his offbeat and strange way of answering a question. I kow there is never a simple answer when it comes to monitors.
Then Andrew who tries his best to sound exactly like frank. And then the like a virus everyone starts sounding the same (frank you should feel proud)
It's amazing how in one breathe people here love to say it's not about how long you have studied them. Then when someone says something contradictory to the majority the first thing said is, have you bred monitors? How long have you had them? Oh 10 years, you don know much about them.
What's this crap about understanding them? Letting them do what is natural. Letting there natural behavior show. As if living in a water trough is letting nature take it's course. keeping large monitors in a 8 ft cage and then justifying it with they are happy, they don't need alot of space as if anyone here has spent any time observing them in the wild, (except frank).
It's not the worlds problem that the laws are what they are.
And man stop justifying keeping monitors in cramped quarters and then jumping on someone for a pic.
I myself love reptiles and keeping them is a pleasure, i believe some would agree with.
And Andrew i guess yor the man well second man but try getting your own personality and not like a clone in everything you say.
Hell, frank seems to have a reason for being who he is, but i'm sure you have alot more time to interact with people on a daily basis so what's your excuse?
Yes i ranted like you so shoot me.
Joel
p.s. monitor experience 1 year
reptiles in general 25 years
I know Anderw i haven't bred dwarf ackies, b.t.'s,crocs,
or kimberley m. so i'm taling of things i know nothing about..

Well Joel, I myself have only lived as long as you have reptile experience. However, I have never tried to sound like Frank, perhaps it is the nature of keeping monitors and learning from people like him.

breeding monitors is very easy, i have never claimed that i am the man for it. I have never claimed a spot amongst the big boys. but here is the deal, i know that i will be here doing the same thing in 20 years, so what about you?

monitors are a lot of fun, that is the only reason i do this. i was enchanted at the age of 4 with a goulds monitor on an australian wildlife video and was hooked. i still get excited when i see monitors in the zoo, on tv, in pics on this forum, when i walk in to the monitor room and when i see babies hatch, the last part is the reason i will be doing this in 20 years, because i know that that will never get old.

cheers
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Varanus Creations

Well said.
I really dont understand why people insist on being so insulting to eachother. Just because someone has had 20 plus years breeding goannas(no names needed) doesnt give them the right to talk to others like they're sh*t. NOBODY has the right to say anything rude to ANYBODY simply because they feel that the person is doing something less intelligent than what they believe is the PROPER method! It just makes the insulting party seem unworthy of respect. Who can trust such a person? If you cant trust them, then WHY would you EVER want to do ANY sort of buisness with them??
We come here to talk monitors, not put others down to make ourselves feel better. Ive seen some of the MOST disturbing messeges posted here by individuals that are supposed to be pillars of the monitor community, so to speak. We come here to interact with other humans about a common interest. I dont give a sh*t how much experience you have with monitors, because if you cant even interact properly with our own species, than WHAT GOOD ARE YOU??

Im very sorry I have spoken so abrasively. I just wish we all could treat eachother with more RESPECT. We are NOT enemies here!!

With utmost respect and cincerity,
Michelle Rossi

I have nothing against you. However, since your arrival you have done little more than stick up for your girlfriend, I myself have been guilty of that a couple of times as she also posts on here, but here is the deal....

The reason that people go off on newbies is because most of their answers can be found through listening and asking questions, instead they want to post questions for advice and by asking questions that didn't need to be asked (can i feed my monitor gold fish, etc.). The reason people go off on people like Max is because he does dumb things and then broadcasts it, and furthermore only does them for shock.

I was glad to help you, that is what this forum is for, to be able to ask questions and get emperical answers. That is what people don't realize, that until you have experience with something you don't give advice for it.

Frank and Jeff have a ton of experience and when they tell you something it is because they have screwed it up and have also then learned how to do it right.

I myself am only able to do that with a few things. Like eggs, I have killed enough eggs to be able to tell you how not to, because I learned from my mistakes and then did it right.

There are plenty of monitor forums out there. you have your choice between this one, varanus.net, varanus.nl, and cybersalvator, plus a few others. that is your right and your choice, i understand.

i was not trying to make you go away, but after all that is your right.

cheers
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Varanus Creations

Don't worry, I didn't take it the wrong way. See, I think with this post you are doing more of what should be done: trying to maintain an atmosphere of civility. Yes, newbies ask some dumb questions, but don't we owe it to the animals that they own to try and help them before we drive their owners away? Keep in mind, most of these newbies are probably 15, you are going to make them cry!
Yes, I am guilty of defending my girlfriend. See, my girlfriend is a tad more sentimental than I am and likes to relate personally stories with more depth than I would. Unfortunately, she learned the hard way that there are a lot of elitists out there who would trash us for our decisions. I still stick with our decision that was the subject of our introduction to this board. It was better for our lizards and better for us.
The way I see it is people get their jollys but slamming newbies. So I am playing into the circle of life here. By posting, I am allowing the next angry person to vent their frustrations with me. I am up for a lively debate as much as the next fellow. Try not to be to mean though...I might cry.

In much, if not all of Europe and all of Australia. Its illegal for the private person to keep Croc monitors.

Is that what you want? do you want for it to be illegal to keep croc monitors, or any monitor??? I have to tell you, your freedoms(the right to keep them) are being taken away, day by day. In many cities, and counties, its already illegal to keep large monitors(reptiles) Is this what you want? Once all large reptiles are prohibited, do you think they will stop there?

Andrew says he will be doing this in twenty years, well I doubt it, the reason I doubt it, is unless something changes radicially, it will be illegal.

What you should do to prolong your rights as long as you can is, practice responsible ownership. That is not doing things like this fella or Christine did, and if you do such things, learn from it and change. At least not show it in public.

I hope you know, that these forums are monitored by Fish and wildlife, and many other agencies. They do so, because its an easy method to gain evidence. They actually do not have to break down doors to gain information.

Are you fella's getting the point?? who cares if someone gets their nads bit off, I know i don't. But I do not want those fools jeopardizing my right to keep the monitors I like. Please, protect your rights. F

Remember when we all jumped Christine's case for playing with the monitors out in public?

Correct me if I am wrong here, please. But wasn't that the same guy's "really tame" animal who just got half a bottle of vinegar poured down it's throat, killing it? Because it became unhandable?

Didn't we caution them then and were still met with this type of resistance once before?

When they finally ban all reptiles what are they going to go after then?

n/p
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Varanus Creations

The 7' foot Croc was not owned by the guy that killed the baby!!!
Read the post again. I point blank said that!
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Christine :>~

Still my point is the same. Croc died because OWNER (not Christine) was bad for the hobby.

Sorry hon.

correct me if I am wrong, but you do have to have a license to own poisonous snakes, do you not? Maybe the same SHOULD be done with larger species of monitors. Maybe this would deter the morons with the money while those who have the true passion for the hobby would have no problem going through the motions of getting a license. If someone is going to drop the time, money, and effort into a croc monitor, surely getting a permit would be the least if their concerns. I am not saying this is the answer, but it could be one. I also might be way off base here. Someone inform me if I am. Even if that is not the case(with venemous snakes), maybe it should be suggested. I agree that protecting our rights starts with proper husbandry, but that is only half the battle. Once our rights are taken away, we have to fight to get them back. Proposing reasonable solutions to problems carries much more weight than arguing the point that some people are morons and don't know proper care. Throughout history intellegent people have had to compromise to protect the morons. If the future of reptile ownership is as serious as you believe then we better start thinking about compromise before there is nothing left to compromise. Just my observation, could be wrong.

That would be great, we should all have a licence to keep all monitors. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

But, but, what if I was the one who issued the permits. Could you please tell me why I should give you a permit. F

p.s. do u get that?

Yes, I do see your point. My opinion, however, remains the same. While a permit may or may not be the answer, we as keepers should start thinking of creative solutions to a problem that is going to be on top of us before we know it. You know as well as anyone else that telling the few people on this message about husbandry is not going to solve the HUGE problem of kids walking into a pet store and buying a baby nile monitor. THose are the problems that I see. Maybe if well respected and established people in the herp community(like yourself) were to work with Fish and Wildlife, some kind of precident could be set for requirments. I don't know, these are just thoughts. I am not saying permits are the answer, but they might be a possible solution for a problem no one seems to be able to do anything about.

The liscense issue is just another way to give the government control to do whatever they want. To allow a liscense to be needed in order to Keep certain species would be giving control and power to the wrong source. The fish and wildlife guys don't see your point on any of these animal keeping issues. It is simply less hassle for them that you would not keep these animals at all. Don't start by giving them the power to control through liscensing.

Mar

So shall we continue to argue our point until they take all of our rights away from us? Our rights would be a lot more difficult to take back once they are taken away. I am not saying a permit is the solution to the problem, but people should start thinking about things like that before it is too late.

From a conservationalists stand point, I can see that doing a lot of good in curbing the excessive pet trade. Wouldnt it be nice not to see anymore little baby niles in the pet stores?? I think it would be good that individuals would have to prove their competencey BEFORE attaining an animal. As Frank said, it would effect us all, and certainly make it harder to be able to have these luxuries that we all take for granted. Many species are in peril of dissapearing forever, and the pet trade is a big reason for this. Its true that there are other issues like habitat destruction. -But why directly contribute to the problem? Permits are an excellent idea. Maybe a lot of those importers would be put out of buisness, but so what? Do they really give a sh*t about the animals anyways? NO. They dont. Isnt that what its all about? The welfare of the animals?? Its is true that permits are not an absolute answer, for I know of establishments that have animals that require permits and the care that is given is far from acceptable. So in addition to permits, trained individuals would need to oversee the process to ensure that it is effective.
I have spent long hours thinking of these sort of implementations, and see a lot of good comming from it, but Im doubtful that it could be carried out effectively. Like communisim...its good in theory.

I don't own a Croc and so I'm not responsible for it. I have handled three in my life. My choice was made and it was a mistake. Well ya live and learn! That's life!!! Don't mention my name into this s--t. I don't want to be involved. It was hashed out a long time ago. Let sleeping monitors lye.
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Christine :>~

I wasn't bringing you specifically into this. Like last time I was more concerned with the animal and the surroundings.

If you are going to be defensive, forget I mentioned it.

I was trying to show how irrisponsible OWNERS usually end up harming the ANIMALS or the HOBBY in general if not both.

Later HK.

Ridin my motorcycle all weekend and got fried!

Sorry you got fired. But riding your bike all weekend must have been nice. I was too busy to even start mine and Dang that sucks....

I don't know that I know you. What are you keeping?

Later, Gene

You said fried not fired!!!LOL sorry.

Well I got a lot of riding to do to catch up. Though it's supposed to rain all week here.

I'll be touchy next weekend. The rain gives me time to build my snake rack for my baby corns & wifes geckos. Not to mention plans on more monitor cages.

Later

I live in Iowa and I have a breeding group of Blackthroats and Whitethroats.

Mar

I had a blackthroat female for awhile. I have to admit I really liked that animal but it was not what I wanted for a breeding project. I lean more toward the Indo species.

Do you have any pics?

Later

My post wasn't directed at you. It was however directed towards Frank. He brought my name into this crap!
I understand he's trying to help the "newbies" by making me a part of an example. That is wrong and not welcome by me. Things that happened months ago should be let go.

Sorry Gene, honey I wasn't coming after you!

If this thread makes me look bad, oh well!!!
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Christine :>~

Don't even think of telling people what they can and can't talk about. That will never happen. If you want to make yourself out to be aggressive and difficult, fine, just know nobody on this forum will back down from that. (Its too entertaining.)

Pony up, take responsibility. You will get the respect you seem to want that way. Not by telling people 'you can't talk about that, that was months ago'. That's pretty immature.
You have not before referred to the incident as a mistake. Regardless of how you felt then, or feel now, know you will feel different next year, and five years from now. Its all good. Just don't pretend it didn't happen, please.

What I don't get, is the blame not being placed where it belongs, on the OWNER. He is the one who took the animal out of a secure cage, into a heavy traffic area, and handed it to an unprotected girl. Whatever stories you told him, did he think your skin is impervious to talons? I think you are guilty of being naive, but he is a complete idiot.

ahh yes, that's right, no one reads, since dummies still think it was your lizard.
Oh well, chin up. Take it like a ..err.. woman. Stop crying.
D.

And it will be because of ignorance to what is happening to our hobby.A few years back DWA licences were attainable here (UK) but now the governing bodies either refuse or ask for extortionate prices and there renewed annually.I try to keep up with whats happening and from what i see it would seem that over here the hobby is in decline.4yrs ago there was 6-7 pet stores selling reptiles now there is only 1.I know petshops are not ideal but there really isn't anywhere else here although i did have my nile sent up from england through the national herpetological society.
see yah
jason

One of the best things that can happen to the hobby (for the reptiles, anyway) is when reptiles are no longer found in petshops and are obtained through contacts in herpetological societies etc. only. It then requires effort to get the animals and impulse buys stop.

When I was growing up in Canada, reptiles were available in every petstore and in the pet section of every department store. In fact, the local Kmart not only had iguanas, caimans, tegus and boas, but kinkajous and squirrel,spider and woolly monkeys. I myself had a baby caiman when I was far too young to keep it properly and killed it with ignorance. Still saddens and embarrasses me when I think about it.

Then Canada (or at least my city) went through a period when reptiles were very hard to acquire, just when I was reaching an age to be able to keep them responsibly and properly, so I had to import my own animals from the US (all done legally). I would import for others as well, to reduce the price of shipping per individual animal, but those people had to ask around a fair bit to find out about me, as I didn't advertise and didn't make any profit out of it (other than reduced shipping costs). The few people keeping reptiles during that phase were all quite responsible, as they had to do a fair bit of research to get ahold of animals, and we all knew eachother. This was long before the internet was any more than a pipe dream.

Now I live in NSW, Australia, where reptiles have to be kept under licence and must be CB. Many of you would baulk at this idea (and you needn't post paranoid ideas about big brother trying to control you or your animals, I've heard it all before), but personally I think it is a great concept. The basic licence is easy to get, for those that want to keep bearded dragons, carpet pythons, small monitors and relatively easy to keep species, but the classes of licence necessary to keep large monitors, venomous snakes and uncommon and/or difficult to keep species, require experience, and a bit more effort. There is also a minimum age. Considering the current thread, I should mention that lace monitors, although a very common and commonly kept species, require a higher class of licence, simply because of their size and teeth.

What all of this means is that most of the reptile keepers I have encountered have been fairly serious about their hobby, especially those with the higher classes of licence. Even beginners keeping their first beardie or childrens python have to get their animals from a breeder and end up doing a bit of research. At present, reptiles are not allowed to be sold in petshops in NSW (they are in some other states), only through reptile associations and newsgroups, and I am all for it staying that way.

I really care less about the keepers and more about the truckloads of niles and savannahs i see in pet stores everywhere. 99% of these animals will most likely die within the first year of their life and if they don't and continue to grow at the proper speed, there owners would wish that they had. It is the some problem with iguanas(although I see a lot less iguanas for sale now than I did 5 years ago). I think it is an excellent system you have set up in NSW. It protects both the buyer and the scores of animals that would never be wild caught.

I like all of what you said. I do aggree. They do bash the so called newbies. I realy don't consider myself a newbie. i have been around monitors for a few years. I don't have all the experience in the world. You mention another monitor forum. What is the website. I would like to be able to post with out being insulted because i'm younger than most. age means nothing to me. I am more responsible than most of you guys always bahing others on here.

The other forums that are polite, helpful are Varanus.nl and Ssnakes.com/Varanid; for V. salvator: www.cybersalvator.com forums FYI.
Good luck,
mbayless

What is the URL for the other forum? I want to learn too.

Hello Crocky,
Thank you for sharing the pic with us; it shows how NOT to feed an apex predator, who will in time learn to associate your hands with food, and later when it is 7-8-9- feet long, associate yourself as food. It will size you up, and with calculated skill will take you on as well - so please be prepared for this, as it will come on the salvadorii's terms, not yours. Many advanced keepers of salvadorii have their "stories" to tell, and I am sure yours will be one of the more gruesome.... think about it...
Good luck,
mbayless

Aint seen crocky around here for a while?Good to see yah mate!
see yah
jason

lol

People here get way out of hand when you post a pic.Like everyone here doesn't do the same thing with their monitors.I personally don't like being bit by any.An adult Water or Blackthroat could take your fingers off,but nobody seems to care.I guess Croc's are like pitbulls in America(Bad reputations).Good luck and don't stress this forum

thanks Bud, Max

big croc fan here..Shawn

I find nothing wrong with the pics. It is not our place to insult him and everything like you have been. i feed my sav like that, and find absolutely nothing wrong with it. After all I don't think that he will feed it that wya or put it on his head or anything when it does get bigger. If he does then thats his buiseness. I won't feed a croc monitor like that because they do get so big. But htta is me. If someone does then so what. It keeps the lizard happier, does it not. They think they have killed something to eat. i am not going to argue on this topic like some people were trying to argue with me on the topic savvana bites about me being 15, and not knowing what i was doing feedign a sav by hand and making him chase my hand. I find arguing childish and immature. You need to grow up. I will not even read the post that is going to try to get me back. A suggetsion to not feed it like that would be fine but just chewing him out like thta is nonsense. I am on your side genuspython

have a look at their skulls one day, kid, and run your fingers along the teeth.

Hehe!
I liked your pics, and I think you should post more! How about some enclosure pics? Do you have other monitors? I would love to know more about your husbandry. You seem like you have a lot to offer us. Post more.

-Michelle