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What is the definining difference in a White Oak Ratsnake, Grey Ratsnake and a Gulf Hammock Ratsnake? I always thought a White Oak to be simply a lighter colored Grey Ratsnake and the Gulf Hammock to be a separate ssp. from the western coast of FL.
But what actually defines them as different?
Scale count?
Ground color?
Blotch count?
Blotch color?
Pattern variation?
I am not too familiar with these but they do remind me of our Southern Plains and Great Plains Rats here in Texas.
Thanks,
John Lassiter

What is the definining difference in a White Oak Ratsnake, Grey Ratsnake and a Gulf Hammock Ratsnake? I always thought a White Oak to be simply a lighter colored Grey Ratsnake and the Gulf Hammock to be a separate ssp. from the western coast of FL.

These are the same snake. Elaphe obsoleta spiloides. I think there are regional differences in coloration, but i'm not too sure. This would be a difference in light vs whatever - but most likely it would be a captive selectively breeding cause.
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-Chris

The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin

A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?

My Website
N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
Information on substrates

Current snakes:
0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

White Oak grey rats are what most people think of as a grey rat.They are found in coastal areas in the FL panhandle,south Alabama,and southwest Georgia.They are very light,silvery grey with slightly darker blotches,very different from what spiloides looks like through most of its range.Typical grey rats from MS,AL,and GA look more like grayish TX rats or light colored Black Rats.Here in north central AL we get alot of yellowish ones that remind me of TX rats.I have seen a few attractive ones,with a very light grey with dark brown,almost black blotches.The pretty high contrast snakes often come from the same spots as the drab yellowish tan and brown ones.I don't know very much about Gulf Hammock Rats,the ones I've seen were light grey with the blotches connected by stripes on the front half of the body.

Thanks guys,
I appreciate the insight.
John Lassiter

The gulf hammock (formerly known as E. o. williamsi) is actually a naturally occuring intergrade between the grey and the yellow where their ranges overlap (northwestern gulf coast of Florida). Much like deckerts rats are intergrades between glades and yellows and greenish rats are yellow/black intergrades (dang, those yellows sure are indiscriminate breeders, huh?) As previously mentioned, white oaks are a very light phase of the rey rat snake.

>>What is the definining difference in a White Oak Ratsnake, Grey Ratsnake and a Gulf Hammock Ratsnake? I always thought a White Oak to be simply a lighter colored Grey Ratsnake and the Gulf Hammock to be a separate ssp. from the western coast of FL.
>>
>>These are the same snake. Elaphe obsoleta spiloides. I think there are regional differences in coloration, but i'm not too sure. This would be a difference in light vs whatever - but most likely it would be a captive selectively breeding cause.
>>-----
>>-Chris
>>
>>The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -George Carlin
>>
>>A fool doesn't learn. A smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others. Which one are you?
>>
>>My Website
>>N. American Rat/Corn snake care sheet I wrote
>>Information on substrates
>>
>>Current snakes:
>>0.1 Licorice Stick Black Rat (Lola)
>>1.0 Black Rat (Frankie)
>>0.1 Texas Bairdi (Rosa)
>>0.1 Blue Beauty (Brunhilde)
>>1.0 Green Tree Python (Monty)

I have a C.B. Gulf Hammock Rat Snake and I don't see a trace of yellow in it. It looks like a normal Gray Rat that has stripes that connect the saddles. It is my understanding that they are found in Levi Co. Florida and that area. I am thinking that it is more a stable pattern morph of Gray Rat. I have seen the offspring of a Black x Yellow and the ventral scales show a tinge of yellow coloring that I do not see at all in my Gulf Hammock.

Billy did post good information on Gulf Hammock Snakes. I found the same information about their being an interglade on the web myself. But looking at my snake and comparing it to a known interglade, what I see casts doubt on that hypothesis.

Gray Rats show a lot of variation in color among individuals just as most E. o. ssp. I have two normal Grays that are from the same clutch, and one is much darker then the other. (I will see about posting a picture of them soon.) They also show some stripe patterning, but it is not as well defined as on my Gulf Hammock. I also think that the term White Oak Snake is just another common name for a Gray Rat Snake and not a defined color morph. There just seems to be no consistency in the terms usage. I think it is like Yellow Rats being known as Chicken Snakes in parts of their range.

The information about the Gulf Hammock being basically a natural intergrade Grey/Yellow Rats is basically correct and further the relic colonies of them over time have morphed into animals that while they have the intergrade background are very distinguishable as Gulf Hammocks. Neat robust big snakes that have a much better temperment in general than a yellow does. The term "White Oak Rat" was used as a marketing term from back in the early 70's to market grey rats that were supposedly lighter and more colorful than a normal grey. It looked a lot better on a list than the grey rat moniker.

Our two cents anyway,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

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Hey John, I thought you were out of the suboc business! Is that an old pic, or do you have more?
Cheers!

Actually that is a pic Don Soderburg of South Mountain has of mine on Breeder loan. Subocs, just do not seem to do well for me down here and those were too pretty t take a chance, so I gave them to Don who has done a great job of rasing them up They should breed this coming year.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles