Reptile & Amphibian Forums

When it comes to UV I know that it's highly controversial and nothing has been proven. Frank Retes has raised some nice healthy animals in indoor enclosures with nothing more then a store bought bulb for heat! My question is does anyone know if tegus must have it? The tegu forum doesn't get into much detail about it and everyone says they must have it, yet they lack evidence that it's needed. The same thing occurs with monitors. Then again there are people that say every lizard must have it. I just figured I'd throw it up here and see what comes out of it. Thanks in advance!
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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

I keep all of mine with quite large amounts of UVA and UVB booming down on them, the amount proportional to that of the habitat they come from. As all of mine are Australian and most are desert species, they would certainly be used to plenty of UV in the wild. Whether or not the definately need it is for physiological reasons is one thing but I noticed that the animals certainly seem more alert with lots of UV. Also, I've noticed the colours can be sharper with lots of UV, wild caught animals seem to fade quite a bit when deprived of UV. I give most of the snakes access to UV light as well for the same reasons.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com

Its certainly not about UV, its simply about health. Healthy monitors exhibit their color potential. Unhealthy monitors do not. They lose color quickly under not so suitable conditions.

This picture shows some very very bright colors on some gouldi complex monitors, they are indeed raised inside with incandesent bulbs, with no added UV of any sort. Or any suppliment of any sort.

I suggest if you are having problems with color, then you may be missing something very important with their captive protocal, temps, security, diet, etc.

I can post many many pics of beautiful colorful captive raised monitors, that were not raised or kept with UV bulbs. I can do this with monitors from across the board of habitats and countries.

In a very strait forward way(normal for me) keep them like crap and they look like crap. Keep them well and they will indeed reflect that. Thanks for your consideration. FR

I am so happy to hear that you are a big advocate of UV light!

My lizards both have a UVA/UVB spiral bulb as well as UVB striplights (5.0%). I give my snake 2.0%UVB as well. I know it MAY not be required, but as scientists have not figured every mechanism out about UV and the body, I believe it is safer to stick with UV light.

We also must remember that although humans cannot see UV light, it is known that reptiles have more complex eyes and CAN see into the UV range, which is invisible to us. It has been theorized that UV light makes prey animals coloring look different to reptiles than without the UV light shining on them, which can be important if you have an animal that is tough to feed.

Dr. Bryan...I hope you don't mind me asking, but is your doctorate in animal medicine/science?
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Melissa and Corny the Corn Snake
and Monaco the Argentine B&W Tegu
and Meanie the Black Throat Monitor

I agree. All the animals that I take care of at my work are way more active and eat more when we have UV on them. We have UV on all the baby beadeds, uros, frilled dragons, tegus, iguanas, water dragons, basilisks, frogs, and any sick animal, and even an african grey parrot. When we first opened up, we were losing a lot of these particular creatures (not the parrot, the reptiles!), and when we began putting uv on them, the fatality rate dropped very noticably. I agree that not all reptiles need uv, like leopard gecks, cresteds, snakes, and adult reptiles. Young growing herps I truely believe, no matter what someone in a lab says, benifit big time from having uv light. It could mostly be all psycological with some physical benifits. I can, without knowing anything about tests and meters say that lizards under uv eat more, gain weight quicker, have more energy, brighter color development, get sick less, and recover from illness quicker. I have learned so much about herps by having hands on experience caring for them, then what I have read out of any book. That it what is great about this forum, that someone can ask a question and get answers form people who know what they are talking about from being there before, not just getting the info out of a book. This forum rocks!!
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Alone, alone, all, all alone. Alone on a wide, wide sea.
-Rime of the ancient Mariner

I'm raising my red tegus without it, and they're doing fine. I dusted the crickets, and I add calcium and vitamin D to the turkey and fruit mixture, but the large male gets mostly mice, and I've had no problems.

Leslie

Mine are also being raised without it so I was just looking for feedback. I have 0.1 Blue currently (waiting on 1.1 to arrive) and 1.1 albinos. Haven't had any problems. Their main diet is mice/rats (they have been very picky up untill this point!). Anyways thank you!

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John Light
JL Exotics
Contact Me
Web Site

Tony and myself use no UV lighting period. I keep monitors, and breed those darn annoying beardies that keep me busy with eggs constantly. Tony breeds, cornsnakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes, now argus monitors, hes has a list a mile long, he has several types of tegus from Argentine red, B&Ws , blues, Columbian B&Ws, goldens, hes had false monitor tegus, and many others, none have ever had UV lighting, Im sorry some had UV lighting with former owners, the animals were sick and dieing, unwanted, etc, after some time living and eating right they dont even look like the same creature, with no UV lights period, all indoors, many in his dark basement like mine. Its not about UV lights at all, its about some company making $24 a bulb on a $2 bulb and gettting you to buy them every 6 months or less, theres a sucker born every minute. Common sense, real UV lights have clear lenses, not frosted, plus ahve a do not look at warning. Heres a pic of a real UV bulb, with a real UV warning..

Where would one go about buying those "real" UVB bulbs?
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Savannah Monitor - Artimus
Emerald Swift - Jesus
Baby veiled Cham - Sir August De Winter 1-20-05 RIP
Green Iguana - King Arthur
Rose-hair tarantula - Bill
Basilisk - Adam Used to be Adam and Eve but there was a food competition because my girlfriend was taking care of them and she didn't know what was wrong until it was too late.

It can cause blindness, probably burns etc, who knows. Thats why there is warnings on them. There is more than enough UV in a normal floodlight bulb or even household bulbs for them, proven fact. Those real UV bulbs are for killing bacteria, virus, mold, etc. I would never put one in a cage. Theres a test that was done on UV bulbs in Australia in a lab, the results given showed that measureable UV from reptile UV bulbs was so miniscule, and that a normal blacklight produced many many times the UV, why they have warnings on them about eye and skin exposure, as they always have. What do you think reptile keepers, breeders, and zoos used before UV lights were sold? Actually I believe the Vitalight got the whole craze on them started, its a marketing ploy to sell overpriced bulbs. If they convince you that your reptile needs a new one every 6 months, then your local petstore/supplier makes a very very healthy profit from them. Those reptile UV bulbs cost you $21-$50 plus, the petstore buys them for $2-$7, the only difference between them and normal lights sold in any store is the label and the price, and theyre are not very durable (thats so you buy them more often).

I guess the question is really why not use UV lighting? Of course cost shouldn't really be an issue because keeping animals is something that can be planned and budgeted. There are plenty of studies on humans and other mammals in regards to the benefits of UV lighting. It is not a far stretch to correlate this with reptiles. The main benefits not being a measureable physical attribute, but in behavior which is just as important. My experience as well has shown to have more active and alert animals with UV lighting.

Also a quick note on the different types of UV lighting; If you are the naysayer that just can't trust labels and think everyone is just out to sucker the buck out of you then use a UV meter and discover beyond the heresay what bulbs work and what bulbs don't.

Please understand I am not making fun of you, even thought it comes out that way. But to test UV, by using a UV meter is very silly.

You test it, by the effects on the subject, and in this case the subject is the monitors. You can test all sorts of bulbs with the monitors, and that we have done. The real funny part is, in order to test it, you must first know how to keep monitors healthy in the first place, or the test is fairly ineffective.

What we have found is simple, once you know how to keep monitors, then UV lites are of no positive effect. That is, A regular bulb is just as good. And yes sir, I have tons and tons of proof.

It boils down to this, you can take the difference in costs of bulbs, which is lots and feed your monitors better, build better cages, keep more monitor(us sickos), take your mates to the pub, buy your spouse a gift for their understanding, go get drunk or stay drunk longer, save it up and actually go see monitors. Throw it away, spend it on the lottery, donate to a good cause, etc. Now whos the huckleberry(fool)? We should spend five to ten times what is actually needed because the label says so? I say good for you, but I am no huckleberry. I will spend the difference on one of the above.

Well, I suppose it comes down to a simple premise. That while it might not be strictly necessary from a physiological point of view, if the keeper can afford to do it, providing UV light won't do any harm and may contain hidden benefits. Another one of those personal preference areas.

Cheers
Bryan

Please consider this. Would you recomend beginers to spend their limited funds on bigger, better cages and provide more food, or buy a $50 litebulb that is no different then a $5 one?

In most cases here in the States, this is what its boiled down to. Pet shops and other retail outlets, attempt to sell these bulbs as "Needed" when in all reality, they are not "needed".

If a keeper perfers the way a monitor looks under these type of lites and they can afford it, then by all means go for it.

Heres a little story, about 5 years ago(guess) we had this same discussion. It got me to thinking. So I made a rough estimate on what it would of cost me to use these bulbs. At the time, I had about 80 or 90 cages under litebulbs. If I would had used UV bulbs, up to that point, and under their intented lifespan, I would have spent about $2.5 million(US) on the bulbs alone.

The point here is, Its not needed. The question is always, is it "needed". The answer, no its not. If the question was, is UV an option, then the answer would be, yes its an option.

Its my personal opinion, that monitors avoid UV. Both in captivity and in nature.(we could discuss that if you like) They only expose themselves to UV when body temps are low and their is no other option. Thanks FR

It seems with monitors that it's really unnecessary from any point of view. With uromastyx (smaller lizard, similar requirements as far as caging), it seems like they might need it a little more to get d3 since they survive on veggies, but still, 2 hours out in the sun a day seems to be really about all they need to get things done, and in captivity any d3 problems are eliminated if you're using the right supplements, which are much cheaper than getting the lights. Beardies seem to like UV rays, but it's hard to tell if that's strictly a part of being in captivity or if it's how they really act in the wild. My assumption would be that they would only bask for a little while and then find a nice place to hang out, but I think I need to do more research on their wild habits.

But for my beardie, I have a reptisun 5.0...it's just been used for so long that it's basically the same by now as a standard flourescent bulb. I don't really feel the urge to get new UV lights, and instead I think I might just stick with regular halogens and regular flourescents, and the right supplementation.

Very interesting topic.

I saw this photo before and wondered how you got them to pose for you. it make a really neet photo!

ps. the molucan scrub copulated again as you said
Thanks

I did that pic, just like I did this one Jobi. I was cleaning cages and put the babies in the sink, then before I put them back, I picked up a handfull and said to myself, this would be a good pic and walked outside and held them in the sun(uv) and snapped a few pics. Thanks FR

I always love your pictures, and that one is one of my favorites. By the way, it was your posts on uvb that made me think and abstract it to my other lizards (including my uromastyx, by the way). All of my lizards are doing beautifully without the uvb, and it sure has allowed me to spend more on more important things (like more lizards and all thet goes with them).

Thanks again, Frank!

Leslie

I am working the "more support angle" not the more animals angle, which by the way is the approach I took, hahahahahahahahahahaha.

At the time I started with monitors, I entertained working with Uros and I did work with beardeds for many years. Anyway, we had no problem raising either without UV bulbs. We also had no problems raising chams either. My approach with all these lizards has always been, provide hotspots that are very hot, and allow a range down to cool, then, let them pic. All of the above picked just fine. I have always thought, the ability for the to pick the temps they need is of maximum importance. Once we learned how to allow them to do that, then we found such things as UV lite to be, "the wrong path". Thanks FR

on the bearded dragon forum you'll see it all the time. People are worried about how much UV their reptiles are getting, but they don't care that their basking spot is only 95 degrees.

I use fairly hot temps. My bearded's tank has a hotspot that gets as hot as 130 or 135 degrees right under the light. He usually basks off to the side of that (temp gun usually reads him at about 100 even), but he does like to go right under the bulb when he wants to get heated up fast or when he needs help digesting and whatnot. For my uro I use a retes stack (well, due to height restrictions right now because I put more soil in, it's only one section, but it works). Right under the light it gets around 145. She goes there to get heated up usually and then shifts off to the side where it's more around 115-120.

So where they might usually bask at the temps most people provide (speaking for those species, not monitors), they do also use the high temperatures, so it's still important to give them it.

Looking around on the monitor forums has really changed my way of thinking for my reptiles, and now I see stuff on other forums that just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I think that's a good thing.

I don't know what you may have heard, but UV lighting is absolutely essential to tegus (and humans!) and this is proven!

Humans and Tegus need certain amounts of UVA light and UVB light. UVC is the dangerous one. UVA and UVB are spectrums of light that we can't see, kind of like how we can't see microwaves or x-rays, but they exist. Anyways, UVA and UVB are most essential in tegus in allowing them to synthesize Vitamin D in their bodies. The UV is absorbed through shining on the skin.

I ran into a terrible problem with my tegu & lack of UV light. when I first brought home my 6 month old tegu, I provided him with all wonderful, appropriate bulbs, and a large hide space. My little tegu grew so fast and slept so much in his hide space in the dark that after only one month he had developed Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD). MBD refers to many bone diseases related to lack of calcium, phosphorus, or vitamin D. Since we have had reptiles before and our tegu was a good eater, the only answer was that he did not synthesize vitamin D, which allows the calcium-phosphorus system to create bone & utilize calcium. My tegu was terribly sick-not eating, softened bones,not bearing weight on his front legs-and we felt like terrible negligent owners when, there was really nothing we could have done but not given him a hide box. Anyways, our tegu took 2 months to recover and now he is left with a crimped tail and scoliosis and his growth was very stunted, but is a great eater, very personable, and loves playing and being scratched. However, not a day goes by that I am not embarrassed and ashamed of what happened to him. I feel like some negligent owner who knows nothing of lizards even though I know its not true and that we gave him our best care & proper equipment from the start. Ok, sad story aside, MBD can come on very quickly even if your growing lizard is getting some but not enough UV light!

Humans and many other animals are positively effected by UV light in ways scientists are just beginning to uncover. For example, I live in New England, where it is often cloudy and the UV rays are obstructed, and me and many other people suffer from diagnosed (or not) Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) which is like a combination of depression and human hibernation due to lack of UV light in the winter & rainy months. UV light triggers many chemical reactions that we don't understand yet.

Also, Snakes do not need UV but they have been shown to benefit from it for example, get well faster when they are sick if they have UV.

When you have an animal, make sure the UV lights are sufficiently close to the animal. i.e., if you have a very tall tank and your animal stays mostly on the bottom, perhaps put the UV lights inside the tank if it won't make it too hot. Also check for the intensity of bulb you need. strip lights come in 2.0 or 2%(for amphibians, arachnids, and snakes), 5.0/5% (for most lizards), 7.0 for iguanas, and 8.0/8% for desert lizards like bearded dragons. Make sure you have both UVA and UVB bulbs or a combo.

All in all, your best bet is to buy those expensive reptile lights and be SURE to replace them ANNUALLY! So make sure your reptiles (and you!) get enough UV. Good luck!
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Melissa and Corny