Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm curious as to what terms people set up for breeding loans. I know each is different, but I'd love to get some feedback on this topic. I'm hoping to hear from owners of both males and females. Do most females go to the males (I would assume) for breeding? Who normally incubates the clutch, and how is the clutch split? Or is there a standard "stud fee" as in dogs & horses? Thanks in advance for the input!
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Tammy
Owned by:

1.0.1 Argus Monitors
0.2 Ball Pythons
0.1 Siamese Cat
1.1 Rescue Dogs (Lab & Bernese Mountain Dog)

Terms that I have been useing for breeding loans are.

1) Make sure that the person you are sending your snake to should be clean and willing to feed you snake for the time he/she is there.

2) The female would go to the person with the genes (Albino,piebald, or pastel)you are looking to get or prove out.

3) The male if you have the (Albino,piebald, or pastel) would stay with you to prove out the other persons snake.

4) If you are sending out your snake to someone take photo ID of your snake so there is no mix up or if that person sells it by mistake!! It could happen!!! and write up a contract and both sign it!!!

5) The person with the morph you are looking to get will incubate the eggs.

6) Now the fun part clutch split. Well what I do is if I have the morph example my pastel male to normal female I have done before is female came to me and I hatched them out and there was 3 males and 5 females 1 male was pastel so I would get 1st pick of the animales because I have the morph. I took the pastel male and the other person took his pick female everyone wants females and we picked them back and forth. At the end of that I had 1 pastel male and 2 normal females and 1 normal male. the other person had 3 normal females and 1 normal male. At the end of all that he wanted to still get a pastel male so we made a deal sold him the pastel male for wholesale price of $600.00 and took the whole clutch made a good deal for all. So all in all the person with the morph will get first pick of the clutch even if it is an Albino and you are trying to prove out a het animal.

hope this will help you!!!!

My main thought on this is dividing up the clutch.

Most (amateur) breeders have absolutely no business sense.

For instance, if you went into a partnership with someone and you put in 20 times more money as the other person, would you divide up the profits evenly?--not a chance! You would divide up the profits in a ratio of 20:1 But I see and hear about breeder loans that work this way. Are these people nuts, just stupid, or don't care?

For instance:
Someone has a pastel female (lets say for argument it is worth $2,000 and that is what the owner paid for it) and someone has a normal male (lets say they paid $50 for it). Let's say they breed and produce 8 eggs--all hatch and they produce 2 pastels and 6 normals. Most breeding loans I have heard about would split the babies so that each person gets one pastel and 3 normals. But think about it. One person put in 40 times as much money as the other person. So the person with the pastel should get 40 pastels and 40 normals for each pastel and normal that the person with the breeder male got. But does this happen? Nope. The person with the morph basically gets screwed (he gets a MUCH smaller portion than he should) and the person with the normal male makes out like a bandit (he gets MUCH MORE than he should). The most fair way to divide the profits would be to sell ALL the babies and divide up the money in a ratio of 40:1.

(this doesn't take into consideration labor, transportation, or incubation costs, but those are very minor expenses when dealing with high end morphs.) That's why I would never enter a breeding loan situation with anyone. All the breeding loans people have asked me to do are always breeding my morph to their normal, and unfairly dividing up the babies so I get screwed and they make out like a bandit. I would have to breed their snake for many years just to get enough babies to divide up.(in the case above, I would have to produce 41 pastels before we could divide them so I got 40 and the other person got 1, and they'd be mad at me until they got their one!)--Not to mention the headache and hard feelings that may result if one the snakes should die, etc.

If you can't afford two snakes to try and breed, I think you are much better off waiting until you can afford them, than you are entering into a breeding loan and all the headache and dangers that come with it.

Rodney

But you are just looking at what the owner of the normal female is getting with a jealous eye and not considering what you are getting and what it costs you. Are all your morph males stretched thin? I've heard of males breeding 8 - 20 females. How much would putting your male with an extra female cost you? How much would even half the clutch gain you? Why should you care so much about the part of the clutch you don't get from a female you didn't spend years growing up? Be happy about the part of the clutch you do get as pure gravy on top of the clutches your females produce.

At least your scenario is more real world. Who would borrow a normal male to breed their pastel female? The rest of that post was good about pointing out considerations other than the split that you should take into account and settle on upfront.

I've thought about this a lot and I think I've finally come up with a fair split. I think you should multiply the current (i.e. breeder sized) value of the two animals times the percentage of their annual breeding effort to come up with a ratio for the split of the babies. The hard part will be coming up with the values since not too many adult morphs are listed. A rule of thumb I used to use with corn snakes was that an adult was worth twice what a baby is worth but I’m not sure that is enough for ball pythons.

Say for example that this coming fall you have an adult male pastel and you feel that he is worth $2000. You find someone who has a cb 1,800 gram female that they have raised up for 3 years and all your concerns about health etc. are satisfied. If this girl was posted in the classifieds in the fall for $500 she would probably sell for that.

Now consider how much of each animal’s breeding season is used up by the loan. The female can produce at most one clutch a season so the loan is 100% of her annual breeding effort. How many females can the average healthy adult male breed in a year? We are only just starting to answer that. Maybe 5 is a good average so this loan will be 20% of his potential breeding effort. It doesn’t really matter how much a particular male can really breed as we wouldn’t want give extra credit for a young wimpy male that could only breed 2 and discount an excellent breeder that can breed 15 – best to just go with an industry average.

So the male's combined number is $2,000 X 20% = $400 but the normal female's is $500 X 100% = $500. The owner of the normal female is actually contributing more to this loan than the owner of the pied! Since you can't count on exactly 9 babies (for a 4:5 split) and order of selection is very important perhaps the owner of the normal should get first alternating pick so as to get any odd numbered morph/normal/female offspring. However, the owner of the pastel would probably host the breeding (so as to have the male handy for swapping out with the other on average 4 potential mates) and that is worth a lot so hard to say the exact mechanics of the split but it should be a lot closer to even than most people thing.

I think this consideration of breeding effort is why with mammal breeding loans you hear about the idea of only the pick of the litter going to the owner of the male. A mammal male can breed 100 or more females annually so that 1% factor brings down their share in the breeding loan.

Of course it has to be a win/win situation for both parties. The owner of the normal female gets access to morphs they wouldn’t otherwise have a shot at and the owner of the morph male gets extra babies for very little effort or cost compared to buying or growing up an extra female. Don’t obsess over what the other person is getting, just look at what the loan costs you and what you get out of it and decide if it’s worth it or not.

I agree with most of what you have said, and your method makes a lot more sense than most breeding loans I have heard of. I have thought about this a lot myself. (By the way, I have 2 adult male albinos and 14 50% het females, so even though I am an atheist, I practice what I preach!

But you are just looking at what the owner of the normal female is getting with a jealous eye and not considering what you are getting and what it costs you.

No, not at all. The way I see, it is your jealous eye that tempts you into the breeding loan even though the outcome will short change you and reward the other person. It is your greed that makes you willing to do this, because you see the outcome of this breeding as a bonus for you, instead of a business deal. But in reality (assuming you have the high-end morph) you would come out way ahead if you treated this more like a business deal and purchased the breeder female outright, and then kept all the babies from that breeding. It's not a question of greed to me, but more a question of ethics and what I beleive is fair and what isn't.

For instance, lets say you have male pastel that is worth $2K and a normal female worth $500. For $2,500 invested, you have a chance at getting one clutch, but by purchasing another female for just $500, your investment is only 20% more costly to you, but your possible outcome is increased by 100%!

Now let's look at it from the other person's perspective. The other person with the female would have to go from a $500 investment, to a $2500 investment by purchasing the pastel male, in order to have any chance at producing any morphs--so they have to increase their investment by a whopping 400%.

So you would have to increase your investment by 20%, or they would have to increase their investment by 400% to get the same outcome--hardly fair.

Most breeding loans are a scam in my opinion (whether it is intentional or not) Amateur breeders tend to look at it this way: I contributed one animal, you contributed one animal, so we should split the babies evenly. But in reality, it is more like I contributed $2000, you contributed $500, so we should split the babies in a ratio of 4 to 1. But this rarely happens in breeding loans.

I think this is far more practical than your method of how much of the season is used up per animal because the price of the animals (the market) already accounts for this. For instance, if there weren't any high end morphs out there, there is no way that normal females would be selling for $500 each. Their price is based on the market (not the remaining breeding season of the animals) so the market price should determine how the offspring are split.

Rodney

Just like possible hets, breeding loans aren't for everyone's personality type.

Sure buying the females outright would be best if they are available and you can afford them. The high price of normal females does include part of their value for breeding but enough of that value is left that with the right male they are still a good business deal at $500. However, could you even find the ideal (cb, healthy, reliable source, and most importantly not bred) girls for sale right now?

I know it's not the co-dominant example but lets take the situation you mentioned for your albino project into consideration. You have provided well for your 2 albino males with seven 50% possible hets each. What if they where both just outstanding breeders and now in late January you look at your records and realize that each has locked up instantly with each of it's 7 females multiple times (I know of a killer pastel that has done this with 8 females at this point). Your albino males are still eating and seem to have plenty of strength and interest for breeding and should have your large collection of 50% het girls covered by now. Now I happen to have a 50% chance het albino girl that I just got back from a breeding loan to a young albino male that didn't want to breed at all. I'm not going to sell this girl. Are any unbreed breeder sized 50% chance het albino girls available this time of year for purchase? I think your only options at this point are either to stay put with your 14 50% chance het albino girls and produce whatever you produce or work loaners into your rotation and have a shot at producing more.

Sure the loan would benefit me since I don't have the $4,000 or whatever it would cost to buy a breeder sized albino male to do this pairing here. However it's not costing you $4,000 to cut your already well bred females down from 1/7 of his attention to 1/8th for the remainder of the breeding season. For the cost of less than a 2% reduction in his remaining attention for each of your girls you have added your share of the split on the loan.

By the way, even thought this discussion uses the real world example of your albino project (with speculation on how well the males are breeding) and my 50% chance het albino girl I am not actually solicit a loan since you probably don't live within driving distance and there is no chance of us agreeing on terms we would both be happy with. It's just an example to illustrate the options and costs of a breeding loan. I believe that your view of ethics and fairness is clouding your business sense regarding breeder loans and what they really cost you vs. their benefit to you.

I suspect the main objection to such loans is a feeling that it isn't fair that the owner of the female gets a shot at a morph without having to invest what the owner of the morphs has. The ethical question might come up as a consideration of the possible effect on the market by cutting the normal female owners into high-end morphs for very little outlay (will they then "respect the market"?). Loans also have the potential to result in higher overall production, which might accelerate morph devaluation even apart from the possible effect of having people who didn't invest thousands in the morph selling their share of the split.

However, I think from the pure business standpoint you would have to consider what you get out of the loan and not worry about the other person or the market.

If you must consider the perspective of the person loaning the female look back to my example of my 50% chance het female to an albino male. I have a proven het albino male of my own (he also happens to be 50% chance het Jolliff axanthic). If my 50% chance het albino girl turns out to be a het, they would produce about 1/4 clutch of albinos and 3/4 clutch of 66% chance het albinos and I would keep the entire clutch. If I loan her out to an albino and she turns out to be a het then she will produce about 1/2 clutch albinos and 1/2 clutch 100% hets. However, even with an even split I come out exactly the same on the albino count, 1/4 clutch. If the split is less or even if I get 2nd pick I am actually loosing on albinos by doing the loan. The only reason for me to do it is because my smaller cut of normal babies are now 100% hets rather than more 66% hets or 50% hets if she turns out not to be a het. I'll probably just keep her and breed her to my known het male and then have a shot at producing albinos that are possible possible hets for Jolliff axanthic.

I messed up in a few places in that post.

It was David's post that had the good listing of issues to consider in addition to the split but it wasn't his post that mentioned the very un-real world example of a pastel female to a normal male.

My example was a pastel male to a normal female but at one point I accidentally typed "pied" when I should have wrote "pastel".

As far as the mechanics of actually splitting the babies up after you have used the value X breeding effort formula to come up with a ratio:

How about the host gets initial pick of half of their ratio (rounded up) before the loaner gets their half pick (again rounded up) and then it alternates between the two picking full ratios?

For example, my theoretical pastel X normal in fall of 05 prices resulted in a 4:5 ratio for pastel:normal but the pastel owner is hosting the breeding. If the pastel owner got to pick all 4 of their picks before the normal owner got to start in on their 5 there might not be any pastels left. On average the clutch size might be expected to end half way between pick turns so lets start off half way through the first turn and the pastel owner starts with the first 2 picks (half of his/her 4 picks per turn). Then the normal owner gets 3 (rounded up half of their 5 pick) picks. Then the pastel owner gets the next 4 and the normal owner the next 5 (most likely ran out of clutch by then).

This split makes more sense in the more likely scenario where a normal girl is being loaned to a much more valuable male, like say a Mojave so the normal owners turn is only 1 pick. If in fall 2005 a breeding 2004 male Mojave is worth $20,000 and gets bred to a $1,000 3,000 gram girl (maybe too high but I think you could sell that big of a cb proven breeder girl for that but I will keep mine thank you) the ratio comes out like this:

Male: $20,000 X 20% = $4,000
Female: $1,000 X 100% = $1,000

So the Mojave owner (who no doubt hosts the breeding) gets 4 picks for every 1 pick of the normal female owner. However, if the Mojave owner got to pick all 4 first then on average the clutch might end half way between the 5 baby cycle (either 8 or 13) resulting in the Mojave owner on average ending up with even more than a 4:1 ratio by virtue of picking first and the clutch not reaching to the next turn for the normal owner. By splitting the first turn in half this effect is mediated. Mojave owner picks first 2, normal owner picks next 1, Mojave owner picks next 4, normal owner picks next 1, Mojave owner picks next 4, normal owner picks next 1 (etc.). The ratio stays pretty close to the ideal 4:1 split for most potential clutch sizes. The Mojave owner still gets the first two picks and hence the best shot should the production of Mojaves or the gender ratio come out bad.

Hi there -

Well, I see your point but who in their right mind would even want to breed their female pastel to a normal male - that's where your example fails IMHO.

Most breeding loans are going to involve a morph male (pied, pastel, whatever) - or two morphs (pastel and spider) not a morph female and a normal male. In this situation, if I have the room, and my male is a good breeder, I really have nothing to lose if the female is healthy and her owner is paying shipping.

I think the real reason to do a breeding loan (if you have the expensive animal) is to help someone else. There are a few people (thanks especially to Ralph), who helped me out in a huge way when I was first getting involved. I appreciated it alot and while there is not much I can do to "help" those folks, what I can do is give back by helping someone else trying to get a start.

But, the person with the expensive animal is the one who makes the call on how the split will be handled. Many times I have seen people with one normal female feeling they should have the control in the arrangement...no way - the person with the morph is doing you a favor and beggars can't be choosers.

Just my thoughts,

Christy

Here are my terms.

If I have the Male(MORPH) the All Females come to me. I hatch the eggs and we split the clutch even. If only one of the Visual Morph Is produced I get the Visual OR WE can do a BUY OUT. THAT means out of 6 eggs, and Only one pastel is produced Either I get it or (YOU) have the option to buy it for 1/2 of the cost. Since You(anyone) only provided a NORMAL female. Now if 2 are produced we split, if three are produced we split 2 of the pastels and get the extra one since I have the breeder PASTEL male.

In my opinion ALL females got to the MORPH MALE no matter what(unless the person with the morph agrees to otther arrangments)

I am currently involved in a breeding loan with my Male Pastels to a few Normal females for someone I met at a reptile show. I am just trying to help him get started with breeding ball pythons. He loaned me 2 large females with the conditions above. Thanks DAVID

Thanks DAVID

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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
0.1 Spider(04)(RDR)
3.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
0.1 Yellow belly(unproven)(04)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's